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I like the points that everyone is making. There is truth to all of them. The whole country has financially taking a beating so why wouldn't we. This is a normal trend, like it or not. It will come back. For us we are a very small farm. Right now that is a good thing because it doesn't cost much to support it. When you get to big, times like this hurt and it adds pressure and takes away from the real reason we're all in it. And that is the love of the whitetail. This may sound weird but I still get chills every time I look at a giant buck. Of course 10G'S for a doe doesn't hurt either.:D
 
Guys I was in John Yoder sale this week in and it was not pretty you only had two guys bidding on the shooters bucks be side someone on line.There more shooters bucks then hunters the way I see the market, but maybe I am wrong , I am going to try to stay positive and hope for the best
 
Don you are on target. With out a doubt 90% the hunting market desires wide, long tined bucks. Drop-tines are a plus. Mass is a plus. To many extra points are a minus.
 
WRW_2 said:
Don't most of the big breeders also have shooting ranches? Do they realize they're cutting they're own throats with these prices? A guy might as well buy a $100 to $500 dollar doe for breeding. I don't know about you guys but I'm not buying a high dollar doe or breeding with a high dollar sire if I can't recoup the cost if all I get is shooters out of it, which is most likely what you'll get. If the shooter market keeps going like this, no one will buy the high end stuff, and where does that leave them? Not to mention at those prices you can't even pay your feed bill, more a less vet, breeding, medication, and all the incidentals that go along with deer farming. If they drive all the small farmers out of business with these prices, who will be left to buy their high end stuff? I'm not raising deer so the Shooting Ranches can make money. I don't get it. The prices I saw were about half of what they were a couple years ago. Don't get me wrong, I know I'll never make a bunch of money doing this, but it has to be self sustaining. I love doing this but if it won't support itself I can't do it. I doubt the shooting ranches are dropping their prices by 50%. A 239" with a good frame for $6500?!?! OUCH!! That should have been AT LEAST $12,000+, because that deer will be shot for $15,000+. I sure hope this is an isolated thing or it turns around quick because a lot of deer farms will be out of business at those prices.



The breeder market is driven by the shooter market, or so I was told. Does this mean all the mid to high end stuff is going to be 50% of what it should be? I sure haven't seen that yet, it might be a LITTLE off, but no where near as bad as those shooter prices. The high end stuff is still as high or higher than last year, somethings got to give.



I know I'm probably setting myself up to get flamed, but someone has to say it.
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Mark if we get flamed, we need to look in the mirror. (all of us) We the breeders are the problem. 100% of our efforts has been to advertizing breeding stock. And leave the hunting ranches the burden of selling our shooters while we sit on the front porch or computer or phone discussing pedigrees and how big our yearlings are.

What can we do? Talk to friends, neighbors and co-workers concerning the advantages of high fenced hunting in a positive way. With the same zeal as we talk up our breeding stock when we are trying to sell them.

If we do not, we are like a Ford manufactuer who makes Ford trucks sells Ford trucks but tells his neighbors I would never own a Ford truck.



100% of the deer that don't die in our pens are shot.
 
ANTLER VALLEY said:
I have read about the "list" that several farmers are talking about having.

The problem is that the handful of new guys who are now ready to sell for the first time either are not on the list (much like a newly-married couple not having any credit instead of bad or good credit) or maybe on one list or another simply due to their views that were reflected right here on the deer forum. Simply put, the guy who has no relationship with the ranchers feels like he's on the B list when he didn't do anything wrong. Heck, I was on the C list last year.
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Hay this forum stuf is fun. First time I have ever took the time to do it.

Talking about a "list".

My wife has a list but it has nothing to do with deer.

The hunting ranch list is not much different from the list we as breeders use when selling or buying deer. My list as a breeder is focused on two things. The person who owns the deer and the deer. I am sure most hunting ranchs try to put the whiners, jewers, complainers and ugly bucks with difficult pens to dart bucks out of, on the bottom of the list. If I had a hunting ranch I would look for breeders that are local, easy to get along with, flexable to my time schedual, have guality framed bucks of any size at a fair price and who has help to load the deer. I feel new breeders if they meet these standards can move up the list from D to A in one season.

I really enjoy these forums and you fellow deer raisers.



100% of the deer that don't die in your pens are shot!
 
PaintedMeadowsBJs said:
I'd rather eat deer.... then sell hammers;)
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If we don't get this deer market turned around we may all wish we were selling hammers. Hammers don't eat much.
 
Honestly, I really don't have a dog in this fight other than trying to maintain a level playing field for everyone. What I mean by this is - I don't rely on selling shooters or breeding stock to sustain my costs of raising deer. Being placed on a "list" for saying whats on my mind, really doesn't bother me. IF it takes me bowing down, worshiping or following the "list creators" like a lemming just to avoid being threatened by the list, then please by all means send your lists to me. I will sign them with my own handwriting and date them for you as well. I am not puckering up and planting my lips on no ones dairy air just to avoid being put on a list.



What I am seeing unfold before my very eyes is a situation similar to what my grandfather faced in the milk industry many many years ago, 1950 as a matter of fact. The milk plants tried the same low ball tactics with the milk producers and before the milk plants knew what hit em, the Allied Milk Producers was created by the farmers. Yes, the poor ignorant farmer formed allies with their fellow farmers and created "lists" and stipulations of their own. It didn't take the plants long to change their mind when the milk dried up on them. I wasn't even a twinkle in my daddy's eye at the time, but I have seen old pictures showing thousands of gallons of milk being dumped by the farmers. Instead of being leached to death, the farmers stood together and decided they would go broke on their own terms, not by the processing plants terms. Makes perfect sense to me..... but hey, I am just a dumb, ignorant farmer.



Here is my take on the dilemma we are currently faced with as an industry. Between this topic as well as this one, I clearly see the business as usual notions from the breeders who are relying on selling breeding stock this year to recoup costs. They are saying it will get better or everyone needs to upgrade to produce bigger and better. I would have to agree with this if I were a breeder trying to move product in these hard times - this is just good ol' marketing and being a good salesman.



However, you have the majority of folks that are scratching their heads trying to figure out how they are going to make ends meet, let alone recoup costs, with the current prices where they are. Even by breeding with $2,000 semen put in a $8,000 doe, the "majority" of offspring are still 180-220 - if we're lucky. This is evident by watching the auctions and the classifieds, as well as visiting farms. How can a guy justify spending $10,000 on upgrading when the preserves are only paying $4,000 or less for the majority of offspring that are created from a single $10,000 breeding? The hype indeed sounds a lot like buying $4 hammers and selling them for $3.



Look, I don't have all the answers but I can no longer sit here quietly listening to all the hoopla that lured as many people in as it did and for all the wrong reasons.



Sincerely,

John Swank
 
If you look at the two auctions this weekend in a clear perspective, one was in a state with closed borders at the yearly convention with all the bells and whistles to pull everyone in; the other was in a "semi" friendly state without many hunt areas with deer from 3 or 4 states trying to be sold. I think the results speak for themselves. As for the two, I can only speak of the tda but this is always their best auction where the big boys come out to play. I didnt stick around for the entire auction but it seemed business as usual. I wouldnt run out and spend 10k on a straw of semen based on the fact these deer sold for what they did. If they ever publish the results look at who bought the lots, who uses whos bucks in their programs, in state and out, and come to your own conclusions.



I personally am still trying to figure out why people seem to think this industry is so immune to all the things that plague every other business on this earth? There's only a select few out there that are going to turn huge profits, there's a lot of smoke and mirrors, and there's a lot of people who are going to be in this business the usual 5-10 years and be gone for various reasons. Even for the hobby farmers if you're even going to break even you have to have a strict business plan and stick to it.
 
Another possible reason for the poor results aat the Shipsy sale may be another local auction. I spoke with a friend of mine in the amish community and he said they had a huge livestock and equipment auction also in the area. Many of the well known amish farmers were there instead of the whitetail auction. Many of the amish also raise well bred horses and this was "THE" sale to auction those off. To put it in perspective on how big it was they had BBQ for sale there and sold over 600lbs of chicken and nearly 400 lbs of hamburger. There was just too much going on to have a successful auction in shipsy. Shoot there are so many auctions for whitetail that you can afford to miss a few and not skip a beat.
 
Fellow breeders. Lets look at the problem. The problem is there is not enough hunters for the bucks we are producing. To complicate the problem most breeders are up grading their breeding for 200,300,400BC bucks when in reality the average buck shot at most ranchs is from 120 to 220BC and the majarity of them are under 170BC that are shot. I have been told most hunters who hunt at ranches spend $2000 to $5000. You eliminate most middle class hunters when you try to sell a hunt for over $5000. There is only a limited amount of hunters who can afford to pay over $10,000 for a deer hunt. But as you see most of us have been breeding to produce 200+ bucks. It's like trying to sell a Cadillac to a person who can only afford a pinto.

If we do not help the ranchs advertize to get more hunters we will be selling Cadillacs at Pinto prices.
 
Wisdom , I have spent many hours wondering why we as producers are out growing (in antler size) the demend for our product . Every year I get a list of prices and things from a few preserves and they always stress the need for bucks between 140 and 180. They fully admitt they have very little demend for bucks over 200 yet we all breed for 300 . When I grew ginseng we'd wash the heck out of it and the buyers would say it was to white ..to clean ! They wanted that root to be brown not white . Soon we figured out that if we let the roots sit on the wagons for a week or two they start to wrinkle and the dirt would stick to them and when we washed the roots for drying they'd be a light brown and just what the markets wanted . Heck we got more money and the roots weighed a bit more they were basicly somewhat dirty ! My point is why do we breed for bigger uglier antlers then the hunters want to buy ? Heck it seems to me EVERYONE wants to be in the breeder and semen markets so we all over spend to create to big of a buck ..why ? Seems like we're breeding ourselves out of business some times so to speak ! Just my opinion nothing more ..
 
I agree with much of what Sam said. Well said!

I know the last 2yrs we needed shooters come Nov into Dec and couldn't find any! The ones I did find were not what I needed nor from people that I would want any from (read between the lines on that one). Point here is many of the producers want the preserves to buy the deer now and most of the hunting pressures comes in Oct. I dont really know what is needed right now as far as sized bucks. We have many raised in the preserve and many of the hunters haven't gotten the bug yet to hunt. Now that we have more and more preserves they don't have to book so early they can find a place to hunt anytime anywhere. So what Im trying to say is the producers need to have the ability to hold some of the deer not expect them to be taken as soon as they shed velvet. Putting them in sales this time of the year bad idea! Some of these folks believe it is the obligation of the associations to PROMOTE and SELL their deer notsure of the thinking there?????????

I get many calls for buying shooters from many I don't even know they seem to just expect me to buy them but I have started working with some guys and I am very happy with the dealings. I think Sam nailed it when buying deer from guys. I know I get calls from guys who have absolutly no involvement with the industry or any association am I gonna buy anything from them? Absolutly not! Heck I had a guy call last week, not a member of any association, who had 3 shooters for sale same guy last year had the same 3 shooters when I got desperate I was gonna buy them then he decided he didnt want to sell them. Go figure.



I definitly agree that the "Industry" needs to promote the preserve not just the preserves. As it has been stated it is the end market and needs to be promoted by all involved. I know what I spend in advertising and travel, etc.. each year.



Big framed good LOOKING deer are easy sells to the hunters no matter what size. Its the trashy 220" 14" wide that I have to shoot for a 170".



Wooden many of the preserves are looking for 140-180 is it is a big demand for those but also many of the preserves are taking big risks buying animals from just anyone. They have the select few or producers they are buying the bigger ones from knowing the animals are well taken care of and will live well past the unload. If something happens to them they are taken care not left out in the cold.



We actually have more bigger hunts booked this year then the previous 2 the others will come for us but until we absolutly need to use some of the other guys that have shooters I will work with those that I have used in the past. They take care of me and I will take care of them. Some of those same guys have bought breeding stock from me as well and have built good relationships. NOT A CLICK!

Do I have a list? Sure of the producers who I will get a fair shake from whether in the shooter or breeder market. Again NOT A CLICK! Good Business
 
mrwhiteails said:
I agree with much of what Sam said. Well said!

I know the last 2yrs we needed shooters come Nov into Dec and couldn't find any! The ones I did find were not what I needed nor from people that I would want any from (read between the lines on that one). Point here is many of the producers want the preserves to buy the deer now and most of the hunting pressures comes in Oct. I dont really know what is needed right now as far as sized bucks. We have many raised in the preserve and many of the hunters haven't gotten the bug yet to hunt. Now that we have more and more preserves they don't have to book so early they can find a place to hunt anytime anywhere. So what Im trying to say is the producers need to have the ability to hold some of the deer not expect them to be taken as soon as they shed velvet. Putting them in sales this time of the year bad idea! Some of these folks believe it is the obligation of the associations to PROMOTE and SELL their deer notsure of the thinking there?????????

I get many calls for buying shooters from many I don't even know they seem to just expect me to buy them but I have started working with some guys and I am very happy with the dealings. I think Sam nailed it when buying deer from guys. I know I get calls from guys who have absolutly no involvement with the industry or any association am I gonna buy anything from them? Absolutly not! Heck I had a guy call last week, not a member of any association, who had 3 shooters for sale same guy last year had the same 3 shooters when I got desperate I was gonna buy them then he decided he didnt want to sell them. Go figure.



I definitly agree that the "Industry" needs to promote the preserve not just the preserves. As it has been stated it is the end market and needs to be promoted by all involved. I know what I spend in advertising and travel, etc.. each year.



Big framed good LOOKING deer are easy sells to the hunters no matter what size. Its the trashy 220" 14" wide that I have to shoot for a 170".



Wooden many of the preserves are looking for 140-180 is it is a big demand for those but also many of the preserves are taking big risks buying animals from just anyone. They have the select few or producers they are buying the bigger ones from knowing the animals are well taken care of and will live well past the unload. If something happens to them they are taken care not left out in the cold.



We actually have more bigger hunts booked this year then the previous 2 the others will come for us but until we absolutly need to use some of the other guys that have shooters I will work with those that I have used in the past. They take care of me and I will take care of them. Some of those same guys have bought breeding stock from me as well and have built good relationships. NOT A CLICK!

Do I have a list? Sure of the producers who I will get a fair shake from whether in the shooter or breeder market. Again NOT A CLICK! Good Business
Click to expand...



Thank you for your openness to share and the good advice you gave us.
 
Don't tell him that! He won't be able to get out the door in the morning because of his big head! Congrats Darren and aaa, I need a loan! ZZ
 
I am one of those guys talked about earlier. New farmer, first year selling shooters. I have made many contacts out there on the bucks I have to sell. Most of the people I have tried to contact has been no return call or email. Not buying from new farmers because they have enough deer provided with the farmers they have suppling them. Bucks are to small. Bucks are to big. List goes on. Last year I had preserve guys calling me wanting my bucks. This year I have been trying to move these 4 bucks since I new they were going to grow antlers this spring. It seems really hard to talk to some guys. Ask a hundred questions and really like the bucks but then say they are not interested for the above reasons. I have only had 2 offers on these bucks and they were very pathetic. I was tickled pink all summer long watching 2 of these bucks grow to over 200" and then have guys say they don't want them. They are not trashy, they are big framed, lots of mass with long tines and a few kickers and drops. Just what I wanted then to do. I am not going to get frustrated yet. I don't want to seem like I am complaining or bad mouthing anyone. I am just basically responding to the post about the new guys trying to get rid of there shooters. And it is tough. So if you know anyone looking for shooters that have the look, I got some!



Hungry Hill Whitetails

Suring, Wi

1-715-850-0550
 

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