percentage bucks and does

We all want more bucks than does.....right. I just went through our records and this is the tenth fawning season since we started deer farming. we started with 4 does, one buck and a buck fawn to bottlefeed. we now fawn 25 - 30 does each year. the fawns over this time have been 114 doe fawns and 111 buck fawns, less than 3% diff. what are some other farm's longer term results to give a good sample?

Lets see



2006 - 0 buck fawns / 2 doe fawns. 2 does, 1 didn't fawn

2007 - 6 buck fawns / 1 doe fawn. 3 does

2008 - 2 buck fawns / 0 doe fawns. 2 does, 1 didn't fawn

2009 - 5 buck fawns / 2 doe fawns. 4 does, Still waiting for 1 to fawn



That makes 13 buck fawns / 5 doe fawns over the last 4 years.



Bad thing is, we're a small farm and running out of room quick. If we were at 50/50 or so, at least we could have sold some of the doe fawns to keep our numbers down. I know most guys would be happy with this, but in our situation, it's kind of messed up our plans. Not that it's a bad thing, but it just took up all our room quick. We'll see what number 4 has this year and go from there.



I know it's not a very long period of time, but that's what we've had since we started back in 2005 with 2 bred does.

Don't take this as the Gospel, but I have been told that if you reduce the square footage on your breeders during the rut, Mother Nature automatically puts more buck fawns in your pens to help slow the population rate. I have no experience in this, but I have been told this by a few experienced farmers.

I don't have my long term stats here now , but this year we have 13 fawns and only two bucks......our breeder pens are , and always have been , about 200 feet square. I guess if you are wanting some females born , bring them to me for reproduction.....Jim

This year we are 10 does and 7 bucks so far. I have 3 adult does and one doe fawn from last year left to fawn yet.

Every year we have more does than bucks and I am tired of it. At least this year we had twice as many does fawning as other years so we have more bucks to carry over now. I am tired of only having 2 or 3 bucks in each age group.



A friend of mine was going over all his records over the years and had some really interesting stats on *** ratios, and fawning dates all compiled onto one sheet. It was kinda cool to look at.

To date I have had 10 Bucks 1 doe. It must be in the water. Two does left to fawn.

We have three does left to fawn and we are at 8 bucks and 8 does.

Here is how I see it, and it works for me. I have seen other discussions on this same topic and it has worked for others as well.



I remove ALL my bucks from the breeding pens each fall..except for the one used for breeding. I take that years buttons bucks out also. I take all my bucks, except for the breeder, to another farm where they are raised for shooters. I usually keep about 8-10 breeding does and one, maybe two, bucks for stud. Seperate pens for each group of does and buck. This makes the ratio of bucks to does very low and out of balance. Mother nature in turn will attempt to compansate for this difference and produce more buck fawns.



Now, at my friends farm where the bucks are raised for shooters, he does the same thing. He has a seperate pen set up on the other side of the farm. It is out of site and down wind of the breeding pens. So the breeding does are kept from contact from this group of bucks and are unaware of there presence. Keeping the ration of bucks to does within the breeding area out of balance.



Each year we have consistantly produced more buck fawns than doe fawns. Over the past 3 years on my farm we have produced 48 fawns total...32 of those fawns have been bucks. That is 66% of our fawns are buck fawns. And that my friends is money in the bank !!



I do understand that not everyone can seperate their deer like this on their farm. We didn't intentionally set out to do this, but in a sense we have tricked mother nature and made it work to our advantage.

I still think its 50:50. You get an X or a Y chromosome. How can an egg pick the *** of a spem? In some reptiles *** is determined by environment. Natural selection may influence *** ratios in the wild. If you get enough of a sample size (100 or 1000). I think you will see this. I don't think any type of "voodoo" magic will help you get more bucks. Sexing of semen can be done.



Does anyone have any real research on mammals to help us out with this?

The boys in TX tell me that probably 90% of doe fawns give birth to buck fawns.

brianjames said:

Does anyone have any real research on mammals to help us out with this?

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Brian,

Here is a link to a post with some research documents and their finding on fetal *** ratios in deer. I do know that some of the research was done at Rachelwood Preserve, which is/was a research enclosure in PA, about 15-20 miles from me. Not sure what they use it for now....



http://www.deerforums.com/vbforums/showpost.php?p=3493&postcount=27

To answer the Brian James comment. We aren't suggesting that the doe/egg is choosing between sperm, we are suggesting that the buck is producing more of one over the other. It is mother natures way of attempting to balance the ratio. I went back and checked my records for the past 9 years of being in business. I have always removed ALL the bucks and button bucks each fall only leaving the breeders on the property. We have birthed 127 fawns total with only 49 of these fawns being does and the remaining 78 fawns were bucks. That is 61% buck fawns over a 9 year period!



As far as I have seen in my breeding pens and in the wild, Antler Valley is correct with his comment. ALMOST always, if a doe breeds her first fall then she will have a buck fawn. It has been 100% true with 7 out of 7 does breeding at approx. 7 months of age, giving birth to buck fawns in the past 9 years of business.



Some of you may be skeptical. I guess that is your choice. I am simply sharing my results. In a sense we are all research facilities for these animals. Maybe I'm just lucky. Maybe the Good Lord rewards me for trying to live a good christian life. All I know is that it works for me and I will continue doing it.



I guess many of you would be skeptical if I said I have produced 9 out of 11 fawns so far this year being piebald. And a total of 30 out of 48 are piebald over the past 3 years. Very few of our does have piebald genetics. Many of them are well bred does that come from strong, well bred bloodlines. And yet they still produce piebalds.



Like I said, I am just reporting my results at MY farm. If it ain't broke, don't fix it !!

So, why would a doe have one *** over the other BIOLOGICALLY?

brianjames said:

So, why would a doe have one *** over the other BIOLOGICALLY?

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Brian,

If you get a chance, you should really read the documents. They explain a lot of what you are asking.







John

The info referenced by John Swank above is very interesting to say the least. My own observations and records indicate that there very well may be some correllation to a does physical condition at the time of breeding and her fawns, both in terms of *** and numbers. In my early years of raising deer I was just learning to properly meet their nutritional needs. Of course I was focusing on growing bucks who were fed to meet their genetic potential for large antlers. As time went by I had tweeked my feed recipe numerous times to the point where my bucks were not only growing larger racks when compared to the same age classes on my farm in years past, but the bucks were also in much better body condition and by mid-summer were downright FAT. I have always fed my does the same feed ration as the bucks. When I got to the point where I felt my bucks were being fed a ration that they did well on, I also noticed that the fawn production of my does also made a noticable change ....... but NOT for the better. In the early years when my feed ration was poorer and my bucks did not do as well (although they were clearly healthy) my does would almost always have twins with an occassional set of triplets. Single fawns were unheard of and the buck fawns clearly outnumbered doe fawns by a wide margin. When my feed recipe finally became fine tuned for the bucks my does then started having a lot more singles, rarely had triplets and the doe fawns started outnumbering bucks by a wide margin. It was really just late last summer when I put this all together and my does were plenty fat at that time. I immediately started backing off their feed intake to get them into poorer body condition before breeding. Then about the time I inseted CIDRS for AI, I also started the does back on full feed to get them gaining weight. The does never got thin as I had my eyes opened too late and started the process of having my does a little thin too late in the season. None the less, this year my fawn ratio was exactly 50-50 bucks to does, much better than the previous couple of years.



This summer I am going to have my does in a little worse body condition and then about 3 weeks before breeding I am going to put them on full feed and get them gaining weight as breeding time nears. For those of you who are experienced with other livestock (especially swine) you may know what "flushing" is .... basically it is the practice of having your females in a condition where they are gaining weight at the time of conception. This practice has proven through research to increase the size of litters in hogs substantially. Any hog farmer will also tell you that a sow that is fat at the time of breeding wil likely have a smaller litter. I believe the same principals applies to whitetails based on my experience. If anyone read the Whitetail Heartbeat article on Jonathan Bell and his buck "All-Star", he touches on this very subject and I concur with his position. For you guys that are getting a high number of buck fawns, you are likely doing the right thing with your does (probably more by accident) but if you are feeding your bucks the same feed you likely have a situation where you could improve antler production with some feed changes.



Note- this is all just my opion based on about 35 years of raising about every kind of livestock. Please dont get offended if I stepped on any toes. I dont claim to be an expert on anything but just always try to learn more than I already know.

Don H said:

This summer I am going to have my does in a little worse body condition and then about 3 weeks before breeding I am going to put them on full feed and get them gaining weight as breeding time nears.

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Don,

That was great information. This topic has always fascinated me and I often find myself reading a lot of the research papers based on other livestock.



I do have a question, as you seem to be the most willing to openly share your information and findings. Is it possible for you to create three different groups of doe as test groups?



If so, my theory for the first group of live bred doe is, instead of raising the nutritional plain three weeks "prior" to breeding, you raise it three days "after" breeding. My reasoning for this is due to the condition of the doe "during breeding". I think three days after will have more of an impact then a doe already on a nutritional increase during breeding. It's just a theory.



I am very familiar with nutritional flushing at three weeks prior to breeding and have been recommending A/I clients to do the same for the last several years. However, I was mainly concentrating on higher conception rates, rather than manipulating the fetal *** ratio.



The second group of live bred doe would have the nutritional plain raised three weeks prior to breeding, just as you are planning.



The third group of doe would also be fed the same as group two and then A/I'd at 68 hours. My theory on this comes from A/I'ing at different times and a noticeable variation in *** ratios with the time differences. I noticed when breeding at 58 hours there was a lopsided number of doe fawns born. When A/I'ing at 60 hours, the differences where closer. When A/I'ing at 62 hours it seems as though we are getting 50/50. By accident, I ended up A/I'ing at 65-66 hours and the farm ended up with 70% buck fawns.



I have never repeated the breeding at 65-66 hours and it just may be dumb luck. But what has me slightly convinced there may be something to it is the research document on fetal *** ratio and the estrus cycle. The research claims that doe bred later in estrus indeed produce more buck fawns.



So I guess the only way to find out if there truly is a way to manipulate the fetal *** ratio is to conduct a study. This is why I am asking you if you would be interested, or have the means to conduct such a study, and offer your honest conclusion.



I think it would be great information either way...



Regards,

John

I have a pen that is really big. All single sire breeding, no AI. All are pretty fat. All fed "Big buck feed." Of about 50 born this year, most all have been doubles, and 40 out of the 50 fawns have been bucks. 80%! I have one doe in there, "Sallie Mae," that is probably more wide than she is long. She had two buck fawns.



I still think it is random, since a buck can only give an X or a Y chromosome



They must have herd me whispering about puting all the does in the preserve this fall!! HAHA!



John,

I am going to look at the article. I did notice that in the first paragraph of the first article that it said some studies comfirmed the nutrition influecing *** ratos while others contridicted it. It will be interesting to find other studies. I will look further into the topic when I have time. I have 130 fawns in my bottle barn right now, so it may be awhile!!HAHA



Don,

I agree with you about body condition influencing conception rates, and even number of fawns, but I'm still skeptical about it influencing *** ratios.

brianjames said:

John,

I am going to look at the article. I did notice that in the first paragraph of the first article that it said some studies comfirmed the nutrition influecing *** ratos while others contridicted it. It will be interesting to find other studies. I will look further into the topic when I have time. I have 130 fawns in my bottle barn right now, so it may be awhile!!HAHA

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Yea, the abstract is kind of misleading, but it goes on to explain the contradictions. It makes a lot of sense if you absorb and consider the research information.



130 fawns..... That's about 128 too many for me....

Sounds like you are enjoying it though, and that's all that matters...



Have fun!!

John

i was just wondering i had 6 does give me 18 fawns 3 a/i does 6 bucks,2 doe and 3 live covers had 8 does and 2 bucks all in the same pen but out of 5 does we sold all transported to other farms very early in preg all only had singles and doubles do you think this is because of stress from move and a new farm just wondering W/S "JUST LIVIN THE DREAM "

Guys I'm still thinking that second cycle breeding will produce more bucks. This year I am 6 for 8 buck to does.(1 doe left to fawn) This is my third year in the business, so I don't have long term data, but it worked this year. By the way 6 buck is great! I have had 4 bucks born over the previous two years and all have died. Its hard to raise shooters when the bucks die.(I have only lost 1 doe). Of the Bucks 1 broke both front legs, 1 died shipping home, 1 to EHD, and 1 was hit by lightning.