percentage bucks and does

John,

I do not have the facilities nor the number of does that would be needed for a meaningful test. Since you mentioned the results you have had with AIing at various intervals after removal of CIDRS, I will note that I have kept detailed records for the last 3 years on my AI does. One of the variables that I am noting is the time from CIDR removal til the AI is done. I have heard the theory that waiting towards the end of the window to AI will increase the number of bucks whereas AIing at the begining will increase the number of doe fawns. Right now my sample is too small to come to any conclusions. Here is what I can tell you - the year that I ended up with the highest percentage of doe fawns, my does were the fattest they have ever been going into the breeding season AND I had crowded them into a small pen to take advantage of the theory that crowded does have more buck fawns. (that obviously didnt work!) I am not sure what the complete answer is but I tend to believe that it could be possible through various practices to influence a doe herd to give birth to 70%+ buck fawns year after year. We just have to keep plugging away and testing different theories.





Brian,

I kinda got off topic when I brought up flushing and nutrition and body condition of does. You are right, this does effect conception rates and even number of fawns born per doe. However I am not so quick to dismiss the idea that it cant also effect *** ratios. Mother Nature has things in place to combat various issues such as climate and habitat conditions that we will never fully understand. You could be right in that a buck produces X and Y chromosomes and it is simply random which one fertilizes an egg but I am not going to give up on trying to manipulate my does towards having bucks fawns. Good luck!

John, I'm having a ball just a little sleep deprived, but ill be alright.



Don, keep us updated as much as you canI wouldn't mind having mostly bucks as well...

Don that just seems to crazy to believe........because it is the buck that determines the ***......not saying it's not true....just hard to understand how that could effect the gender of the fawns.......crazy stuff!!

You know we may never completly understand how we get more fawns of one *** over the other . When I started I just buck bred a bunch of doe's I bought to a so so 8 point buck, he gave me about 50/50 buck to doe ratio . I then switched to what I thought was a better buck 10 pointer scored 203 when sold that gave me almost all buck fawns. I think in two years of breeding with him I only have 3 doe's here out of him . Then I had a chance to breed to Buck Longwhitz's Boudacous buck 226 and I really wanted some buck fawns, pretty much the same group of doe's but NOT !! He throw all doe fawns and I only got 2 buck fawns that year and 10 doe fawns . Now that stunk, not to mention he didn't breed all my doe's either ...maybe to old he was 11 !! Then I swtiched to an RPM yearling pretty much the same group of doe's and got 15 buck fawns and 3 doe fawns. This year AIed and got 9 buck fawns and 7 doe fawns from the AIed doe's . Still got some doe's to fawn from the RPM son now 2 natural breedings but he's once again almost all buck fawns so far . Go figure !! What about morning breeding AIing verses night breeding ? I AIed at night this year .

I will qualify my results this year....I live bred with two different bucks and we had four does we bought live bred with three different bucks on three different farms. The does we bought were with bucks in pens with no other bucks around at all , I had about a dozen bucks in adjacent pens on my place. The does we bought gave us all doe fawns..... we will be selling or trading doe fawns . Jim

Right now I am more interested in eliminating as many single births as possible to the older does. I think flushing may be the answer to this issue. As far as manipulating the *** of the fawns ... welll I think that one will take some time to figure out, IF it ever happens. I know for every person that believes in a certain method, there is another that will tell you it doesnt work. For example, take the theory that by crowding your does in a small pen prior to breeding it will cause a false over-population and the does will then have more buck fawns. The year I tried that I got more doe fawns than ever but then again that was the year that my does were the fattest going into the breeding season. If it is possible to manipulate the *** of fawns it will likely take at least a couple of factors working together and maybe more. For example, maybe it will take a crowded pen along with breeding late in the window when they will actually stick. A breeder may intentionally be doing one of these things and the others just happen to fall into place so he believes in the 1 thing he is going out of his way to do when in reality several factors are coming together more by accident than design.



AS for the buck part of the equation, I am sure that some bucks throw more doe fawns and others throw more doe fawns. This surely accounts for some farms having skewed buck/doe ratios. I am also aware that it is possible to *** semen to produce either females or males as this is done some in the dairy business. Somehow the X sperm and Y sperm are seperated before the semen is froze. Since Wooden is a dairyman maybe he can shed some light on this subject and give his opinion as to the chances that this technology may find its way to the whitetail industry.

I remember several years ago that a friend of mine and his wife were trying to conceive a baby and they had a book on "determining the *** of your child" so I did a quick internet search and came up with the following which I "cut & paste" from an article on this subject. This just re-affirms my suspicion that it may be possible to manipulate our whitetails to give us more buck fawns.





Basically, men produce two types of sperms, the X (female) and Y (male). According to Dr. Shettles' studies the y-sperms are smaller, weaker, but faster than their siblings x-sperms, which are bigger, stronger, but slower.



Based on this fact, there are several things you can do to "favor" the conception of boys or girls:



(1) The most important aspect of all is timing of intercourse during the monthly cycle. The closer to ovulation you have ***, the better the chances to have a boy, because the y-sperms are faster and tend to get to the egg first. If you have *** 3 days or more before ovulation, the better your chances to conceive a girl, because the weaker y-sperms tend to die sooner and the x-sperms will be available in greater quantity whenever the egg is released. On the other hand, having *** from 2 days before ovulation, through a few days after ovulation, is better for conceiving a boy. Around the 2-day point -- 48 hours before ovulation -- seems to be the 50/50 mark.



(2) The pH of the women's tract is also very important. A more acidic environment favors girls, since it will kill the weaker y-sperms first, leaving a greater quantity of x-sperms available to fertilize the egg. On the other hand, a more alkaline environment favors boys. Shettles recommends a ****** of water and vinegar (acid) immediately before intercourse to favor a girl; a ****** of water and baking soda (alkaline) will help for a boy.





My thoughts after reading the above was that #1 basically supports the idea that breeding later after the removal of CIDRS could very well produce more bucks as has been theorized and #2 may support the notion that maybe feed related issues or body condition can sway the *** ratio of fawns by affecting the pH in a does reproductive organs and thus sway the *** ratio of the fawns. Just some food for thought for all to chew on.

Don you should be able to maniputate your doe's not having just one fawn with PMSG (pregnant mare serum gonadotropin ) and GnRH ( gonadotropin release hormone ). Then you have HCG too (human chorionic gonadotropin ). HCG and GnRH are used to get super ovulation when we flush cattle . We think the use of these prostaglandins will shorten times of heat , so breeding times get more important but we could be wrong . Your right sexed semen is readily available in the cattle indusrty in red 1/4 cc straws but conception is lower than normal unsexed semen so far . I also believe and it's just me that some females will settle much more to either a Y or X sperm and I think it's because of the chemical make up within certain females will allow the enzyme of either an X or Y sperm to penitrate that egg easier or faster then that sperm with fertilize the egg . Not sure if I'm saying this right or not . There are some bulls and some cows we farmers beleive will almost always have the same *** offspring, but hey we're farmers we're not paid to be smart ...lol Just my opinion .

Don H,



Thanks for a great article full of information. This does go to support my statement on a prior thread "What determines the *** of the fawn"?



I knew there was a reason that some does were predisposed to producing fawns of one *** over another. I was correct in assuming that their ******l secretions acted as a spermicide and discouraged sperm of one *** while encouraging sperm of the other ***. It is Mother Natures way of attempting to balance the buck to do ratio.



Perhaps it is the acidic level in my feed and dirt that has helped me produce more bucks than does over the years. Or it is the fact that I remove all bucks except the studs from our property each fall before breeding season. As one skeptic stated that "VOODOO" magic was unlikely involved. Whatever it is, I will continue the same routine and hope the results continue to be the same.

Ross, Thanks for the input. I actually increased my dosage of PMSG last fall from 1cc to 1.2 cc and I still had 28.5% of the does give birth to singles of those does that took to the AI. I am not happy with more than 10% of mature does giving birth to singles. Am I expecting too much? What dosage of PMSG are the rest of you giving your does?



wvdeerman, if you find something that works for you then by all means keep on doing it. I am not sure that there is anything short of sexing the sperm that is going to work across the board on every farm. I just like to hear as much input from others as possible and then consider what changes I need to make on my farm.

Don H said:

(1) The most important aspect of all is timing of intercourse during the monthly cycle. The closer to ovulation you have ***, the better the chances to have a boy, because the y-sperms are faster and tend to get to the egg first. If you have *** 3 days or more before ovulation, the better your chances to conceive a girl, because the weaker y-sperms tend to die sooner and the x-sperms will be available in greater quantity whenever the egg is released. On the other hand, having *** from 2 days before ovulation, through a few days after ovulation, is better for conceiving a boy. Around the 2-day point -- 48 hours before ovulation -- seems to be the 50/50 mark.

Click to expand...

I agree, as research concludes in the years with lower buck populations, there were a higher number of buck fawns born. This is theorized as happening due to having a heavy population of doe and less buck to breed them at the early onset of heat/estrus/ovulation. I too am starting to see a pattern from the breeding times from CIDR removal - based over the last 6 years of A/I'ing 100-300 doe a year. I indeed think there is something to it, but I can't quite put my finger on it yet.



Here is a quote from another topic --

John Swank said:

Low buck populations with a heavy doe population would lead to doe being bred later in estrus than with a heavy population of buck - more buck can breed more doe closer to the onset of estrus. A low buck population results in a higher buck fawn ratio due to doe being bred later in estrus, statistically speaking.

Click to expand...

Don H said:

#2 may support the notion that maybe feed related issues or body condition can sway the *** ratio of fawns by affecting the pH in a does reproductive organs and thus sway the *** ratio of the fawns. Just some food for thought for all to chew on.

Click to expand...

Don, I agree 100% as the research conducted on whitetails by Louis J. Verme in 1983 touched on the very subject of stress and the PH levels, along with the temperature, of the uterus at the time of breeding.



Here is a quote from another topic --

John Swank said:

Stress during estrus can also be a big factor as it causes the adrenal gland to produce higher levels of adrenaline, which suppress luteinizing hormone and other reproductive hormones including estrogen that can change the PH level and temperature of the uterus.

Click to expand...

This is a fascinating topic to say the least. I feel confident that moving forward we will one day be able to manipulate the fetal *** ratio - to a certain degree - without the use of sexed semen.



Keep the brain storming info coming......







.

our breeder pens are , and always have been , about 200 feet square.

Click to expand...

Spiderman,

Does this mean 200' x 200' or 200 square feet?

200' x 200' ....a little longer than wide. They don't have to do much chasing and each pen has a brush pile in it so if I had an aggressive buck , he can't corner a doe and kill it. I saw this in the wild while trapping one year....a buck was chasing a doe and she ran up to a brush pile along a field and just circled it over and over to stay away from the buck. Several times she headed out but always returned as he closed in and did the "merry go round" move. I thought it would be a good idea in a pen so bucks could not corner does or give relief to any deer being hassled by another one. I had watched a buck in my pen doing small circles in the middle of the pen while a doe ran the perimeter endlessly tiring her out a lot. With the brush pile just back from a corner about 40 feet , they can stop behind it for a break. They also use them to lay behind and it works 360 degrees as a wind break . Of course the bucks clean their antlers on them instead of my fences , too . Jim

Over the past 3 years we had



07-4buck 1doe

08-6buck 4doe

09-5buck 10doe



All that we had done diff. pen size, feed , 2 years live bred, changed AI bucks

ten years of deer farrming ai, natural, big pen, small pen, nine breeder bucks, 10 ai sires, crevical, laproscopic....... 119 doe fawns..........118 buck fawns.

supports the coin flip theory

If you want to control the number of buc vs. doe fawns you will have there is only one way...........If you want more buck fawns, pray for doe fawns.....If you want more doe fawns, pray for buck fawns.....I believe God also has a sense of humor!

I think you are on to something Scott!! I wanted some doe's out of my AI this year. 2 of the 3 does took to AI, and I am very happy to say I have 4 AI buck fawns, and no doe.

Every year we have been wanted does trying to build our herd and we have had 3bucks for every 1 doe . We AI ed 3 years ago and live bread the last 2 all same results .

Don H said:

I remember several years ago that a friend of mine and his wife were trying to conceive a baby and they had a book on "determining the *** of your child" so I did a quick internet search and came up with the following which I "cut & paste" from an article on this subject. This just re-affirms my suspicion that it may be possible to manipulate our whitetails to give us more buck fawns.





Basically, men produce two types of sperms, the X (female) and Y (male). According to Dr. Shettles' studies the y-sperms are smaller, weaker, but faster than their siblings x-sperms, which are bigger, stronger, but slower.



Based on this fact, there are several things you can do to "favor" the conception of boys or girls:



(1) The most important aspect of all is timing of intercourse during the monthly cycle. The closer to ovulation you have ***, the better the chances to have a boy, because the y-sperms are faster and tend to get to the egg first. If you have *** 3 days or more before ovulation, the better your chances to conceive a girl, because the weaker y-sperms tend to die sooner and the x-sperms will be available in greater quantity whenever the egg is released. On the other hand, having *** from 2 days before ovulation, through a few days after ovulation, is better for conceiving a boy. Around the 2-day point -- 48 hours before ovulation -- seems to be the 50/50 mark.



(2) The pH of the women's tract is also very important. A more acidic environment favors girls, since it will kill the weaker y-sperms first, leaving a greater quantity of x-sperms available to fertilize the egg. On the other hand, a more alkaline environment favors boys. Shettles recommends a ****** of water and vinegar (acid) immediately before intercourse to favor a girl; a ****** of water and baking soda (alkaline) will help for a boy.





My thoughts after reading the above was that #1 basically supports the idea that breeding later after the removal of CIDRS could very well produce more bucks as has been theorized and #2 may support the notion that maybe feed related issues or body condition can sway the *** ratio of fawns by affecting the pH in a does reproductive organs and thus sway the *** ratio of the fawns. Just some food for thought for all to chew on.

Click to expand...

Sounded good to me

This was discussed in the old forums where I was registered as Whitepinedeer.

You are forgetting about The Trivers-Willard hypothesis,

Studies on wild populations indicate that as population densities increase the number of bucks produced will decrease, this is called the Trivers-Willard hypothesis.

During the 1940s studies showed that the larger number of Doe in a given area produced more buck fawns and in a given area where the larger number of Bucks were that more Doe fawns were produced.

So it was determined that you should start early in the season by removing as many bucks as possible from your herd and neighboring pens to get more buck fawns. And making your pens as large as possible

This is nature’s way of perpetuating the species.