Red Cap Facts

dcwhitetails · Jun 22, 2009

Very good John.Good info, to remember, reindeer sure got some fat milk! looks like cow pretty low..Dc

virgil · Jun 22, 2009

Thats all my aunt uses when bottle feeding any little critters.She has good sucsess with it but it would get awful expesive.

dcwhitetails · Jun 23, 2009

Virgil is she using reindeer milk ,or you still bragging on redcap? Im trying it 50-50, on doe fawn,just cause,DC

PaintedMeadowsBJs · Jun 23, 2009

Vigil before you milk a reindeer you gotta know both ***** and boys have antlers...I don't know if thats milk your feedin

virgil · Jun 23, 2009

DC, I've used many different replacers in past and yes still bragging red cap best so far. I have to admit never used reindeermilk and neither has my aunt. She feeds all the little critters us loggers bring home in the spring do to accidentaly killing mamma's when cutting timber.

PaintedMeadowsBJs · Jun 23, 2009

A few red cap fawns ...I could only do a few at a time...

As they are also eating cameras...I got a lot of pictures of eyeballs...

CurtisLloyd · Jun 23, 2009

If you break-down the list, the species that have the shortest season to raise their fawns produce the highest fat content milk

CurtisLloyd · Jun 23, 2009

Robert, opinions around here are like...... gophers, there is lots of them and every time someone pops their head out with their opinion..... someone takes a shot at them.

CurtisLloyd · Jun 24, 2009

Here is te replacer I use, It's only available in Canada it's called "$$$ $$$$$"

Protein 24 %

Fat 30 %

Fibre 0.25 %

You can see ,with this level of protein that it's very important to limit the amount of intake, with older fawns (3-4 weeks) feed the milk cooler ( 4 deg C, 40 deg fah.) this will make the fawn eat slower and they will stop before they are so full they can hurt themselves. Some fawns will eat until they are so full they aspirate some milk into their lungs.

John Swank · Jun 24, 2009

virgil said:
Thats all my aunt uses when bottle feeding any little critters.She has good sucsess with it but it would get awful expesive.

Thanks Virgil. I was wondering if anybody has ever tried evaporated milk with fawns. I have never tried it or heard of anybody else ever using it. The reason I was wondering is according to one of the studies, and I quote:

Helenette Silver said:
Composition of undiluted evaporated milk (Avg. percent: water, 73.8; protein, 7.0; fat, 7.9; sugar, 9.8; ash, 1.5) was some what closer to that of normal deer milk than originally supposed, except for sugar content which was over three times as high. Protein, although more nearly adequate than in the deer milk substitutes used in our early experiments, was, nevertheless, below that of deer milk. Fat content was similar to that of deer milk except, presumably, near the end of lactation.

Weight records for the twin fawns of the doe that furnished the milk samples, were kept for comparison with those of the two artificially reared groups described above (Fig. 1). By chance their original condition was closely comparable, being of the same ***, and averaging 9.5 lb. at a known age of 1 week. None of the fawns, either in the artificially reared or naturally reared groups, were among the largest does raised here, either at the start or at the end of the experiment.

At 6 months of age the evaporated-milk-fed deer averaged 14 lb. heavier than the ones on whole milk, and 2.5 lb. heavier than the naturally reared fawns. A question which could not be answered without sacrificing the animals was whether the excess sugar and lower protein of the evaporated milk may have produced weight at the expense of some change in the normal ratio of fat to muscle.

Neither the evaporated-milk-fed nor naturally reared fawns suffered digestive up set or disease. The four on whole milk were subject to the usual digestive difficulties, which were controlled without medication by temporarily reducing the quantity and fat content of the milk, and heating it to just below the boiling point.

All fawns were allowed grain (sheep and goat ration) at will from the time they would eat it. There was no observable difference in condition between fawns fed evaporated milk and those which nursed their dam.

Both groups were noticeably healthier, larger and sleeker than the fawns on whole milk. All animals, with the exception of one in the whole milk group, came in heat and were theoretically capable of breeding their first year, although none was with a buck.

With this, I am not trying to say or insinuate one is better than the other or that everyone needs to use one or the other. What I would like to discuss is the study findings above as I am curious as to how well evaporated milk may work for fawns?

During the study, it took 150 cans of evaporated milk per fawn to wean. In order to calculate costs I would like to know the size of the can, but it is not referenced anywhere in the study.

Just thinking out loud here - an 8 ounce can of evaporated milk with Vitamin A&D added costs around $1.00 when purchased by the case. So assuming the 150 cans needed to wean are 8 ounce cans, that would be and estimated $150 per fawn to wean with evaporated milk. It definitely is not the cheapest route to take. On the other hand, if the fawns gain an additional 2.5 lbs over those on the mother it may be a cost worth looking into, in my opinion.

Please note: I am just trying to discuss these ideas like an adult. I am not questioning, criticizing or tarnishing anyone's methods or reputation. I would like to discuss the different options available and find the best one, based on facts and scientific explanations. After all, all of us are simply looking out for the best interest of our animals with the choices we make.

Before I jump in and try the evaporated milk, I was hoping to hear some feedback from others that may have tried it.

John

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PaintedMeadowsBJs · Jun 24, 2009

Very interesting John...Thank-You...Hmmm

I'm at a loss...I don't know what to do...Mine seen to be doing great...But don't want to short change them...I can say after years of using replacers... I still like the milk over that. Not looking for a fight...Just stating how I feel...I FEEL they use it better.

Just looking for the best for my fawns and everybody else's that are calling asking for help.

I may need to think about adding a little evaporated to the equation???

allenb · Jun 24, 2009

John the thougt of evaporated milk brings up a good point. I know as a farm kid growing up I have seen dogs,cats, squrriels,groundhogs, racoons, and any other critters we could catch all be raised on evaporated milk. My mom used to put 2oz. evaporated milk 1 tea spoon sugar and 6oz.whole milk in a bottle for us kids when we went to bed. Boy we slept good on that full belly.(might try that tonight) All I know is every thing done well on ole canned milk. Even me. Allen

Buckskin · Jun 24, 2009

Sounds interesting as long as that extra sugar doesn't make them a little more hyper. Any mention in the article about fawn temperment? Rick

John Swank · Jun 24, 2009

Buckskin said:
Sounds interesting as long as that extra sugar doesn't make them a little more hyper. Any mention in the article about fawn temperment? Rick

Rick,

The only mention of temperament differences were:

Helenette Silver said:
There was no observable difference in condition between fawns fed evaporated milk and those which nursed their dam.

Helenette Silver said:
A question which could not be answered without sacrificing the animals was whether the excess sugar and lower protein of the evaporated milk may have produced weight at the expense of some change in the normal ratio of fat to muscle.

Other then these two points, there wasn't much reference to the temperaments or sugar levels.

It does go on to explain how the nutritional levels of the milk changes throughout the lactation cycle of the doe. Interesting stuff.

Species--Lactation Stage--%Water--%Protein--%Fat--%Sugar--%Ash

Doe ------- (24-48 hr.) ---- 77.85 ---- 8.83 ----8.00 ---3.82 ----1.50

Doe -------- 1 week ------- 76.92 ----10.65 --- 8.00 ---2.85 ----1.58

Doe -------- 1 month ------ 77.78 ----10.14 --- 7.50 ---3.00 ----1.58

Doe ------- End (5 mo.) ---- 66.51 ----11.50 -- 18.00 ---2.22 ----1.77

This information is also provided by Helentte Silver and is available in the Journal of Wildlife Management.

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virgil · Jun 24, 2009

How much of each were they feeding and were did you come up with 150 cans. Seems to me like good idea was actualy going to try few years back but i came up with3 cans a day for a hundred days rufly and thought this to be to much. Maybe i need to refigure on how much is needed to be fed per feeding. I to think this would be a much healthier more natural way to feed fawns. Thats why i'm trying red cap thought it would be more natural. Don't like all the mixing and mess either that comes in a bag. PS, ZZ Dennis needs help removing a lodged cap i told him it was your idea.

John Swank · Jun 24, 2009

virgil said:
How much of each were they feeding and were did you come up with 150 cans.

Virgil,

The fawns were started on 1-2 oz. per feeding, but, as with the more dilute formulas, this amount was rapidly increased to 8 oz. By July, a month earlier than usual, feedings were cut to three per day, and by September 1 the fawns weaned themselves at the age of 3 months.

The 150 cans was stated in a comparison of feeding fawns until weaning.

Like you, I too think this "could" offer a more natural and healthier way of feeding fawns for those looking to give it a try. I am not 100% sold on it yet and would like to hear some more feedback and thoughts before I consider giving it a try.

John

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