Here's the deal. A two year old buck, good and healthy. Need to move him to a different pen about 200 yards away. Using 6cc of 300 xylazine mixed in a bottle of telazol and then used 1cc of the mix to dart. Actually nothing different than any other darting job. He is not friendly but not wild either. About a 10-20 footer when you feed. (that's why only 1cc)Anyway, hit him perfect in the rump and he doesn't even flinch. Walks away and lays down. Go to him around 10 minutes later and he's out. Put him on a stretcher, into the back of the truck and drive him into the other pen. Worm him with Ivomec plus, give him some B-12 complex and wait 80 minute and give him 2cc of reversal. He's up and walking around in about 12-15 minutes. Checks the pen out and looks fine. Next day he's looks great. Eating, drinking giving pellets and just hanging out doing what deer do. The next day he's shining like a new diamond and all is well. Today we were gonna put some other does in there with him to keep him good and happy and HOLY COW, there he is laying dead!!! Looked him over good and found no wounds, holes or any other damage. No yucky stuff in his nose from his rumen, just nothing. I understand nobody can say, "Hey, it was this or that" and be sure but... can anyone suggest any "maybe could have been somethings" to give me something to think about? It was a very easy tranq, with no stress or commotion, and he came right out and seemed good. I've gone over our darting procedure in my head a million times and have had good success doing just what we did with this guy, but 3 days later, he's dead. Should we add a shot of nuflor to our procedure just for precautions? I'm just guessing. Any other guesses I can ponder over? Thanks for any help.
Joined Apr 2009
702 Posts | 0+
Marquez, TX
That sucks Woody! Sorry to hear that. Hard to say what caused it, there's always a risk when darting animals and the effects can show up days later like in this case. I know when I dart animals, I don't sleep good for several days worried about it.
Joined Apr 2009
1,231 Posts | 0+
PA
Please don't take this the wrong way but...
Did you have your fingers crossed...sometimes that helps...
I have learned over the years...
The one you figure will make it, doesn't and the one you are sure will die ...Will be standing up looking great the next day!
And for sure the favorite fawn you name will be a casualty!
Those are the only things you can be sure of!
My only thoughts are that he may have aspirated fluid or it was too much for him ...every deer is different...I know that much would kill some of mine dead...BUT THAT IS MINE!
BEST OF LUCK
I HOPE SOMEONE CAN GIVE YOU ANSWERS ...THE NOT KNOWING SUCKS!
Did you have your fingers crossed...sometimes that helps...
I have learned over the years...
The one you figure will make it, doesn't and the one you are sure will die ...Will be standing up looking great the next day!
And for sure the favorite fawn you name will be a casualty!
Those are the only things you can be sure of!
My only thoughts are that he may have aspirated fluid or it was too much for him ...every deer is different...I know that much would kill some of mine dead...BUT THAT IS MINE!
BEST OF LUCK
I HOPE SOMEONE CAN GIVE YOU ANSWERS ...THE NOT KNOWING SUCKS!
Woody, is it possible to put an alley in front of your pens so you can move your deer from pen to pen unsedated? This works well for us, if your alley is divided into two parts, even if you get more deer out than you wanted you can sort them and return the deer you didn't want to move to the old pen and move the deer to the new pen you want in there. With some practice and learning to read deer body language it works well
I had the same scenario happen to me recently. Pneumonia seems to be what did mine in and I have kicked myself for not proactively administering a dose of NuFlor after darting.
Thanks for the thoughts. Seemed like one of the easiest moves we did but it wound up turning out crappy. We are working on a runway across all the pens, but with the price we are getting for our shooter bucks ( a paltry $650 for 145 class
) we don't have any money to finish it. Hopefully in the future. And last, a neighboring deer farmer friend always gives nuflor as a precaution when he darts and ships his deer, but we thought with just moving him 200 yards we wouldn't worry about it. A very costly mistake!!! It just sucks not knowing and then kicking yourself looking back at what you should have done. Thanks again for the replys.
) we don't have any money to finish it. Hopefully in the future. And last, a neighboring deer farmer friend always gives nuflor as a precaution when he darts and ships his deer, but we thought with just moving him 200 yards we wouldn't worry about it. A very costly mistake!!! It just sucks not knowing and then kicking yourself looking back at what you should have done. Thanks again for the replys.We always give Banamine, an antibiotic, ivomec, clostridium C&D and Vit B when tranqing deer. I have been told that on the old bottles of xylazine there was a warning that 2-3% of deer could be allergic to the drug. We have lost 2 deer within 1-2 days of tranqing for no apparent reason. I have always figured it was some type of bad reaction to the drugs and necropsy has told us nothing. Having darted a couple hundred deer (over a hundred dartings this year) and losing just 2, I continue to believe it is an allergic reaction to the drugs rather than capture myopathy.
Did you necropsy? I have started cutting open everything that dies, regardless if I think I know why they died or not. I find that I am suprised more often than not, I might think I know what killed them, then I get inside and find something I wasn't expecting, like pneumonia when there were no respiratory signs and I thought it was something else all along.
Sorry to hear it, the best we can do is try and learn from the ones we lose.
Sorry to hear it, the best we can do is try and learn from the ones we lose.
Joined Apr 2009
519 Posts | 1+
Rivesville, WV
When reading this thread the one thing that stands out the most..."wait 80 minute and give him 2cc of reversal".
We always reverse as soon as we are doing everything we needed to do with that animal. Whether it is vaccinations, or moving from pen to pen, or sawing antlers. Sometimes these guys are only out for 15 minutes, then back on their feet and away. The longer you leave a deer out, I think the more harm you can be causing.
The second thing I see is that you darted with a 300 xylazine mixture. Single strength xylazine requires double the dosage of reversal. In this case it would have been 2cc reversal. BUT, you used triple strength xylazine which is the same as 3cc of 100xylazine, so you should have given 6cc reversal. He would have been longer to recover without adequate reversal, which could have caused problems.
I would recommend giving some type of antibiotic even if it is only LA200 every time you have a deer down.
We always reverse as soon as we are doing everything we needed to do with that animal. Whether it is vaccinations, or moving from pen to pen, or sawing antlers. Sometimes these guys are only out for 15 minutes, then back on their feet and away. The longer you leave a deer out, I think the more harm you can be causing.
The second thing I see is that you darted with a 300 xylazine mixture. Single strength xylazine requires double the dosage of reversal. In this case it would have been 2cc reversal. BUT, you used triple strength xylazine which is the same as 3cc of 100xylazine, so you should have given 6cc reversal. He would have been longer to recover without adequate reversal, which could have caused problems.
I would recommend giving some type of antibiotic even if it is only LA200 every time you have a deer down.
We also wait for the telazol to metablolize, about 80 minutes, then reverse the xylazene. Otherwise, you can cause myopathy because the telazol hasn't worn off yet and they are only under the influence of half of the "cocktail". Telazol alone in the system is very unstable and can be fatal for the deer. If using xlyazene alone, you can reverse immediately.
Using 300 or 333 or 380 xylazene does not require 3x the reversal, because you use less of it per pound of body weight, but you are still giving the same mg of drug per pound, just in a concentrated form. You are still giving sedative for an estimated body weight, and you reverse for the body weight you sedated, regardless of the concentration. It just allows you to use a much smaller dart to get the same effect for that size animal.
Using 300 or 333 or 380 xylazene does not require 3x the reversal, because you use less of it per pound of body weight, but you are still giving the same mg of drug per pound, just in a concentrated form. You are still giving sedative for an estimated body weight, and you reverse for the body weight you sedated, regardless of the concentration. It just allows you to use a much smaller dart to get the same effect for that size animal.
Joined Apr 2009
1,231 Posts | 0+
PA
http://www.vetandwild.com/drugs.html
from link above
Xylazine although frequently used, has some serious drawbacks. It is VERY depressing to the heart. If the animal is excited, and so many are, the deprssing effects are even greater. These effects can range from slowing of the heart, to skipping beats, to stopping the heart entirely. NEVER use xylazine alone to immobilize an animal. ALWAYS use atropine if you are using xylazine. Xylazine can be reversed with yohimbine(0.15 mg/kg IV), or telazoline (3 mg/kg IV.) It is important to remember that when you reverse the xylazine portion of a ketamine/xylazine cocktail the animal will be under the full influence of the ketamine. If you are within the first 45 minutes of the immobilization, you may well see the severe muscle stiffness and seizures due to the ketamine.
http://www.vetandwild.com/generalconsiderations.htmlTHIS MAY BE WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR
http://www.vetandwild.com/ruminants.html
from link above
Xylazine although frequently used, has some serious drawbacks. It is VERY depressing to the heart. If the animal is excited, and so many are, the deprssing effects are even greater. These effects can range from slowing of the heart, to skipping beats, to stopping the heart entirely. NEVER use xylazine alone to immobilize an animal. ALWAYS use atropine if you are using xylazine. Xylazine can be reversed with yohimbine(0.15 mg/kg IV), or telazoline (3 mg/kg IV.) It is important to remember that when you reverse the xylazine portion of a ketamine/xylazine cocktail the animal will be under the full influence of the ketamine. If you are within the first 45 minutes of the immobilization, you may well see the severe muscle stiffness and seizures due to the ketamine.
http://www.vetandwild.com/generalconsiderations.htmlTHIS MAY BE WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR
http://www.vetandwild.com/ruminants.html
This is why it is tough for someone to figure out what happened. Everyone has a method that works for them. Some use ketamine, some telazol. some yohimbine, some tolalozine, some 100 xylazine some 300, some wait 40-80 minutes, some right away to reverse. We have actually done almost all of the above at some point trying to find a way to stick with. We had a lot of losses and some success with each way. Just when we think we have a method, drug mix and reversal time working well, some deer die. It was then I took Scott Heinrich's advice and took a Safe Capture course. This is the first deer we lost since we have been following what I learned from the course. We were feeling a LOT more confident in our darting, up till now. This shook us up some. Painted meadows, I read your link, and thank you for it, but one thing I do different is not to roll them from side to side but put them in a sternal recumbency position and watch for gases and regurgitation. And Robbie, no I did not necropsy. I guess I will start that for next time but, to tell you the truth, I don't know what to look for and might not know something when I see it. But I'll give it a try. I really appreciate every one's input and opinion on everything. It gives me more ammo or options to draw from. I am an infant at this, compared to most of you guys, and I feel I am in no position to give advice or say someone is right or wrong in anything, but I DO KNOW that every situation is different, and stuff happens,(at least to us) so you have to be able to think quickly on you feet and make adjustments on the run. Maybe my problem is just not enough experience to be able to recognize problems before they get bad and avoid or correct them. I don't know. Still, I would like to find that base line or constant rule of thumb to follow, and go back to, when the shiz hits the fan.
) so you have to be able to think quickly on you feet and make adjustments on the run. Maybe my problem is just not enough experience to be able to recognize problems before they get bad and avoid or correct them. I don't know. Still, I would like to find that base line or constant rule of thumb to follow, and go back to, when the shiz hits the fan.Woody - without a doubt, everyone has an opinion and a method that they swear by. Fair enough. I also took the Safe Capture course, and those are the methods that we strictly adhere to, and yes, we still lose a deer here and there. I don't think it matters what your particular protocol is, eventually, you are gonna lose a deer. The first time someone said to me "you can't save 'em all" or " welcome to the deer business" it made me cry. I hate that part of it, and feel like we step in and play Mother Nature, so we damn well better be good at it. But the real fact of it is, Mother Nature loses a lot of deer, too. Many more die in the wild than we know, and the ones that we save as babies or from an illness because we have the ability to treat them, well, that is one that would have died in the wild. That is the only thing I can focus on to try and make myself feel a little better about the loss. Then, the only other thing I can do is to try and learn from the loss, so that it serves a purpose. I didn't know what I was looking for on my first necropsy, either. But, after looking at the colors, sizes, shapes, and differences of the guts of several losses over the last few years, I am learning. We all are. Hang in there. Almost every one of us out here knows exactly how you are feeling.
I think Robbie's statement a while back that said "tranquilizing is controled euthanasia" is the most profound statement I have heard in years considering chemical capture. After over 3800 chemical sedations I am still haunted by the 24 animals that died during or shortly after I drugged them. I know I did what I had been taught, but some of them are totally unexplainable. For instance, I darted an axis deer with xylazine/telazol as I had many times in the past and within 14 seconds of getting the dart the deer wad dead. Go figure, did he have a bad heart? A drug reaction? was it fate? who the heck knows, but after that, I became more diligent after the dart contacts the animal for sure. I have necropsyed several of the ones that have died, including the one I posted about earlier in this thread, but have found no smoking gun. I firmly believe some cervids and antelope cannot survive a tranquilizing for some congenital reasons and regardless of the protocol you follow, you will not find out about it until you dart them. Just one man's opinion................
Scott how critical is the waiting peroid for reversing? my vet has tranqed our deer in the squeeze then we let them out to settle down do the lap AI and reverse right away , time from tranq to reversal 12-15 min. the day was nice 3-4 deg C and we had no problems, they came around good except for one doe that kept asking for another hit. If it was cold -20 how would this effect the deer as their ability to regulate their body heat is effected by the drugs?