Semen stretched to thin for profit!!

Rusty if a straw of semen isn't allowed in an auction because it can not meet a breed or species standard then so be it , it's simply no good and it shouldn't be sold PERIOD. You surely wouldn't want auctions to allow the sale of dead animals would you ? If a breed or species standard can not be met by a straw of semen then it's somehow classified as unable to produce an offspring under normal conditions then in my opinion it's no different than a dead animal , it's a dead straw . To me if there can't be a breed standard somehow set for the whitetail deer industry then theres something wrong going on . When I looked up semen quality in some of my old college materials (and yes they're old ) it states that for any species therefore ,it is possible to to set up average standards for which semen will result in a pregnancy under normal conditions . Why should the deer industry be any different . Why should there be any added on costs ? Every vet or technician collecting semen can tell it's quality if he knows what he/she is doing .

Disallowing a straw of semen to be sold at an auction block because it is incapable of reproducing is one thing but to say that all "uncertified" straws are dead straws is a scare tactic. Of course no one wants the sale of dead animals. Did I say I did?



So what do we do when we spend 10 grand on a straw of buck "x" and get a certified stamp of approval all to be disappointed when the vet says "sorry straw not good enough to AI your doe?" Getting the stamp of approval for semen to be legit for a moment in time isn't good enough for me if there is still a risk of getting bad product in the end. In fact, I would feel sellers might feel less compelled to give a back-up straw due to a false sense of security from a standardized approval.



I agree that having a number to start from for minimum viable sperm count per straw is a good thing for the industry. What should it be?? Leave that for the vets to figure out but what I don't want to see is for one sample (or all) of every draw to have to be shipped to some location to be analyzed for cetrification. I agree that if the vets know what they are doing they should be able to determine counts that properly align with an industry standard that might be agreed on by an association/committee.



Let the reputation of the drawer be the guide as to whether or not you feel the concentration is good enough.



Bottom line-What effect will it have on cost of one straw of semen? $6, $25, $0??? Knowing the answer to that question could possibly deflate the need for this discussion or at least the resistance to move forward.



Dennis and Wooden- Is the goal to have a standard viable sperm count per straw in a certified form or just an understood expectation for semen processors to follow? If a industry cetification is the goal then at least one sample of every draw will need to be sent to a neutral lab for analysis. If a minimum guideline is all we are shooting for then vet takes a certification test to prove to industry that he/she knows how to determine counts and no samples will be needed for neutral analysis.

First off guys I'm not here trying to sell any services I have nothing to do with any semen analizing labs so i gain no money for trying to push an Indusrty Standard...I'm here looking out for all of us as consumers when we purchase semen...Buckskin if i insulted your intellegence by saying "it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out" in one of my previous posts please forgive me I admire and respect all of your opinions and yes you don't want to implement to many regulations in the Industry. However, if it is something that will help to protect my investments in the future then I'm all for it......This would only protect us so far...this would insure that the semen was atleast packaged properly when collected...to try and take it further than that is almost impossible as everyone has their own tanks...but at least this is more than we have now......it helps to stop people from trying to stretch out their semen to get more straws so they can make more money virtually leaving the semen doomed from the start. As far as cost their would be very little added cost to do this....as i stated before a collector would have to have one straw analized for each draw that he does and it wouldn't cost anymore than it does to have a deer dna'd. Folks this wouldn't be much different than many of the other industries out there that inspect their products for good quality before they hit the shelves......why should it be any different in this industry?

We usually have Earl Souva from Great Lakes Sires collect our semen. He collects it, puts it into straws and stores it at his facility. We really don't handle it at all. When we sell some he ships it direct. It is very close to what you are describing Buckskin. I think most deerfarmers are having someone collect their semen and put it into straws already. It is just who stores it at that point. We decided a long time ago not to store our own because of the hassle of continually monitoring the semen tank and getting it recharged, and then the hassle of shipping to anyone. Storing semen at a facility is very reasonable and well worth it.

I agree with having the semen collected and stored lets say at great lakes is the way to go. I also beleive that the storage prices at these facilities are at this time very reasonable and well worth it. I'm just worried that it will change if it becomes the rule instead of a choice. Much like here in Illinois they made it a law that you must have car insurance if your going to drive a car. Then they regulated the amount of insurance you must carry. While I agree that getting uninsured motorist off the road is a good thing but quess what the cost of insurance increased dramatically. Maybe we need a industry standard but we could make it voluntary not mandated. Then let the market take over. If no one wants to take a chance on uncertified semen then that will regulate the market on its own without another regulation that may eventually come back to haunt us.

Hey guys my only real consern is honesty in this semen business and the fact that it takes so many sperm to create a fawn and that number of sperm should in fact be present and alive when that semen is used to breed a doe . I'm sure Jane can tell you when semen is collected the collector in her case Earl Soulva can tell them how viable the semen is when he looks at it and that inturn lets him decide how many straws he can comfortably make from that collection . Most bull studs will guarentee their semen has been packed and processed with a minimum of 50 million live sperm . When Earl looks at the semen he has collected for the Nelsons he can easily tell by the color , mass activity and the swirl if theres lots of very good qualitiy sperm or not so good . He then can determine how many straws can be made from that collection and I'm sure he knows that theres a minumum of so many live sperm in that straw when he's finished. There doesn't need to be any other inspections to certify that straw to have X number of viable sperm in it ,so why would there need to be an extra cost ? I have helped several farms collect semen and each and every time the collector has deterined how viable the semen collected is and how many good quality straws can be made . Heck when I sold embryos only number one quality embryos were allowed to be shipped over seas and the number two's were either frozen and used on the farm or fresh implanted right then and there and they made calves they just weren't good enough to meet the standards set for export . Everyone who collects semen knows pretty well how good that collection was right from the start of packing it into the straws . When the vet says it's really only good enough for farm use he's pretty much telling the owner it's not really good enough to be sold as number one straws ,yet some is . When they determine it can make 80 straws but the owner says he needs 100 it gets to deluted and it shouldn't be done . I just think with an adopted breed standard the collector will pack the 80 instead of the 100 the owner wants or at least something like that . Wouldn't that just be good business ? Just a thought .

I think Ross hit the nail on the head. When a collector makes a draw and tells the owner of the buck that the collection is not that good and should only be used for farm use it should be used for just that. I`m guessing here but some of this semen is making it into the industry via gift or trade but in time if not used it ends up being sold down the road as good. The farmer that gave or traded the straws probably has done it in good faith that they would use it and not sell it. Some may have bought a bigger quanity of straws from a buck that may have had a bad draw at that time for whatever the reason and they used a few but found out later that it was poor quality now they have a few left so they cut their loss and sell it. Now someone else has paid to find out the same thing. Now someone that might not be able to afford a scope but wants to AI just put it into their does. No babies so they figure oh well it didn`t take.



There are a lot of variables in storing semen and Jane hit that nail on the head. When these collectors like Earl, Dr. Ray, Briggins and many more make a draw they are up front and honest to the owner and let them know just how good the semen is or isn`t . Now if the industry set a min. sperm density then these guys know how much they can cut it and stay within that guide line. That shouldn`t add a cost increase to anyone.

If semen is of poor quality at the time of collection and the collector tells the owner it isn`t very good and the owner chooses to put it into straws it should be labeled as such so it doesn`t make into the semen market.



Lord knows we have enough regulations and don`t need any more but I see this as just quality control on a major part of our industry. I`m sure a lot of you out there have seen what I`ve seen over the last 5 years through the eye`s of a microscope.



A saying I love, is you don`t need to defend what doesn`t need defending.

That is why it is so important to know who drew the semen and where it is stored. That tells us what we need to know about it. Now if someone we never heard of is drawing semen - like we once saw on some video out in a field - sorry but we're not buying it. You are right that Earl tells us which is good quality and what is for "farm use". We have used some of the farm use stuff ourselves and frankly, won't do it again. We are tossing it because it isn't worth it.

It's called character, some people have it... some people don't , it's not genetic but you do get it from your parents. What you buy is just as important as who you buy it from, I prefer to buy from the source.

Mitch you are right on board with what i'm trying to get everyone to endorse.......It really does not need to be complicated or costly....and it will hold us all accountable when we collect our bucks as well as protect the consumer from purchasing watered down semen. Curtis you are right another way to up your quality semen chances is to buy from the source not from someone that has bought a straw and stored it for years and now wants to sell it for a profit...there is nothing wrong with doing this but from the consumers stand point you are taking a better chance that the semen was mishandled somewhere along the way!

As a new person in this industry - how do we go about purchasing a semen straw & knowing that we purchased a good straw & that were not waisting our money on a watered down one.

tines, it's not that it is watered down... it is just not at a standard of quality that will give you a reasonable chance at conception, It is upto the seller to provide a level of quality or if you want to take a chance on less mobile or damaged semen knowing that it is will have a low conception rate...buyer beware but you can't cry later,I will state it a different way, nothing is free... buying good semen at a low price is not cheap semen cheap is buying substandard at a discount because your too cheap to buy the good stuff (even with a volume discount) and pray you'll hit the motherlode when you roll the dice.

Sounds like harmony amung posts is surfacing. I do like the suggestion of voluntary standard and as was stated before the free market will regulate what works best for all. I was unaware that there sometimes may be substandard draws that extracting personnel may suggest for on farm use only.



And Mitch makes good point that probably straws make it onto market innocently by exchange of hands then someone decides to liquidate semen just to clean out tanks and scrape up some cash.



For what its worth I am on board.

So for a good semen straw what is average price?? I am talking about a very good genetic blood line & buck. What should you like for when purchasing one?

The first thing is to decide what " look " of deer you want, find a sire that has some or preferably all the traits you want in your deer find a second line with the same criteria cross them and then look for a half brother of either to breed your does to. I have built my herd and never paid more than $1000.00/straw

TallTines said:

So for a good semen straw what is average price?? I am talking about a very good genetic blood line & buck. What should you like for when purchasing one?

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It all depends on what your goals are. Are you just wanting to grow some nice bucks for stockers or are you trying to grow the next million dollar breeder? If you follow market trends you will have to spend a lot more for semen because you're trying to buy what everyone else is wanting too. There are plenty of very nice deer out there who's semen price is very affordable. I would not spend a lot of money on semen till you have truly established your AI program and you have does that are not only worthy of expensive semen but that also take to AIing. Better to work out the kinks with less expensive semen.

Thank you so much for the information. This is all very helpful.