Were do we go from here ?

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Joined
May 13, 2009
Messages
2,369
Location
Chillicothe, Missouri
I was talking yesterday to a Top 30 deerfarmer friend of mine and he posed this ? to me and I will inturn ask it to you!



He said Wayne were do we as an industry go from here ? He said we have done The 200", The 300", The 400",The 500" and now The 600" buck all those once unattainable goals we had just a few short years ago have been reached and beyond our wildest expectaions. We have come so far in just the last 5 years.........Were do we go from here ?



I just was wondering what everyone elses take on this same ? would be......What do you think ?
 
I think now it is going back to the look..who can grow the perfect looking buck
 
Good one and my reply is no where. To much done already.I think the smart route would be to not get involved in all the high dollar hype and take your good does,breed them with all this low dollar..but great buck..semen and make shooter bucks all day long. It was said before that we will breed ourselves out of business...150in was big,then 200,then 250in. There will be so many 250in and up shooters that the price will reflect and there will be very little in any 150 to 180 inch bucks.
 
In my mind this is an easy answer, stop making the largest bucks which can't have their antlers on after July 1st and stop making animals that can't hold up their heads because of the antler weight. Our breeding for that type of deer is just inhumane treatment and not acceptable as stewards of these animals.

We make better laws to protect our industry from critics. We make more harvest facilities which in turn will increase the amount of bucks used. We make laws that will make harvest facilities the most humane method of harvest for our type of animal. We do more advertizing of our indusrty to educate the public and get them used to raising deer and elk behind high fence. Just my opinion.
 
I think farm's have proven that you can raise animal's with un real inch's, some like them some dont. But that's been done and I cant see it going much higher, no point in an animal that can't wear what he grow's. It's time to improve the typical side, I seen reproduction's of world record typical the other day. That's a thin rack not much mass at all. I would like to see buck's that improve on that type of frame, grow a clean 6x6, 7x7 that will net 230's -250's.
 
Don't let hype set your breeding program. Listen to your customers the hunters. Try to understand what they want and how they want to be served. If you don't have a hunting ranch call one or call several they are very open. Thank you Jack your points are well taken I can improve from them.



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Jack said:
In my mind this is an easy answer, stop making the largest bucks which can't have their antlers on after July 1st and stop making animals that can't hold up their heads because of the antler weight. Our breeding for that type of deer is just inhumane treatment and not acceptable as stewards of these animals.

We make better laws to protect our industry from critics. We make more harvest facilities which in turn will increase the amount of bucks used. We make laws that will make harvest facilities the most humane method of harvest for our type of animal. We do more advertizing of our indusrty to educate the public and get them used to raising deer and elk behind high fence. Just my opinion.



This was a good post Jack. When reading the question the first thing that came to mind was Education. We have the breeding down to a science and often make improvements to development with out even trying. Moving forward we do need to increase the sales in our end market. We have the production, we need the movement of our products. We can do that by Supporting Hunting ranches, Educating the public, and protecting our rights as land owners and deer farmers.



What is the easiest way to do so is for deer farmers of all walks get involved in there State Organizations and give there support to NADeFA. I believe things Jack outlined can be done through these Organization. But only if we all get involved. There are over 1200 registered deer farms in Pa. But less than 30% are members of the PDFA. Imagine the possibilities if moving forward we all united to raise money, educate, and promote. Endless!!



Serving our industry is the only way to move forward! I encourage you all to get involved if you are not. I also recommend that if you know a deer farmers who is not part of an organization get the best gift for them and our industry. The gift of a membership!! They will thank you!
 
Jack, I feel you hit the nail on the head. It is one thing to shoot a 200 inch nontypical but put a 200 inch typical in front of a hunter and see witch one the hunter shoots. Typicals will and should produce more money per inch. One moore thing these big nontypicals are hard to sell as shooters when they are dead or have no horns because they have to be cut.

I raise whitetails cause I love the look and the animal. As a steward of these great animals we need to be carefull what we breed for. We might ask are self before breeding is this what is best for the animal or for me? Is this what a whitetail is supposed to look like?.To each his own but remember others are watching.
 
richie0033 said:
I think now it is going back to the look..who can grow the perfect looking buck



Bingo. Producing wide (26+" inside and up!) long tined bucks with 30" beams to carry the frame is still a difficult proposition for many farms to produce consistently. The reason for this is that many farms haven't had the breeding discipline to stick with one great look. All it takes is one "trashy" leg of a pedigree to throw a monkey wrench into your plan.

We have been breeding our animals this way for the past several years, and I know others have as well. In the long run I think we will be well ahead of the game for producing a look that will always be in demand.

When was the last time someone looked at buck with a monster spread and long tines and said "ewww, that looks awful". It just doesn't happen!
 
I feel sometimes I have been around too long. I feel like I have seen It all and then another giant scoring buck comes along each year. Some how I have tryed to stay stead fast to a few little words; beam leagth, tine lenght and inside spread. These three traits make up the frame and main frame of a deer. These thres traits make the deer that most hunters want to see. Focusing on these three traits and with luck produced Arty for me. I have to agree with Jack about the agility for the buck to be able to hold his head and shead velvet, other wise is the goal we are trying to achieve worth the effort and the stress we put on these giant non-tyhpicals. Breeding with the "A" Team has been so rewarding one thing I have also kept in mind is boby size. Ace was a very large 2 year old before he was got cancer. At 2 years old Amos was all four men want to carry on a stretcher, and Arty, he is stupid big. He snaps his antlers around like the are nothing on his head. I weighed the cut offs at 21 pounds.
 
Since I started deer farming I have been given a little flack about raising deer with my fellow co-workers. Some are die hard deer hunters who would never think of hunting on a ranch. They have purchased land in Southern Ohio just to hunt deer. I listen to everything they say they have done to the land and doing for the deer. Then I mention subtle for instances that their property is no different than a ranch other than their land is smaller than a lot of hunting ranches and they are lacking the fence.



These guys also get photos emailed to them of very large non-typical bucks which they usually save them and confront me when I come into the office. They usually ask me "are you growing something like this". SOMETHING LIKE THIS I believe will spread like wildfire amonst everyone that we are trying to educate. I have invited all of them out but only a couple have showed up. I explain the look that we are going for and how a farm is managed.



I brought Fender my 2 yr olds antlers into the office this year after I cut them off. Immediately when they say the antlers they all said they would definitely harvest him. Then they remarked wonder how big he is going to be next year or he is going to be a horse, pig and a few others. Now Fender is by far the biggest deer but boy he is pretty and typical.



I believe in the following:



There are hunters that come to hunting Ranches for the big non-typical bucks because they know that's only place they can hunt to harvest the trophy of their dreams. I understand this and I am in total agreement with this. Please don't think I don't because I do.



I think more advertising or promoting of the true typical framed Whitetail Deer should be done. A lot of guys around here hunt for years and might be lucky to harvest a 130" - 150" whitetail. I think that if we can change the minds of the guys like I mentioned above with the true typical whitetail deer hunt. The more guys will at least show interest in our program.



Like the saying if you build it they will come.



Just my thoughts that I believe in.
 
Here is part of a post I put up last year:



As long as I’m on the topic of high scoring deer I have to say that SIZE DOES MATTER and Score does also! With all the typical hype going around the industry I like to remind everyone about what I see from the hunters. These are just my own observations from our hunting ranches over the last 20 years or so. It is not set in stone and it is constantly changing. Trends for what hunters want will go one direction and then all of the sudden take on a new direction all together. I have never had any season where all hunters want the same thing. Here are some general rules I have found that hold true from year to year! Think about these next 4 paragraphs when you select what you want to breed with and what you want to grow over the next several years.



Within a price category, most hunters will prefer to take a typical wide buck (8 points) over anything else. They are simply getting the most bang for the buck with that kind of deer. For example if you offer a hunter the choice between hunting a 165 clean 8 point and a 169 14 point for the same price most of them would choose the clean 8 point. But let’s not get carried away with that type of thinking (like the industry has). If we offer the hunter the choice between the 165 clean 8 point and a 195 non-typical for the SAME price, they may say they like typical but they’ll shoot the 195 almost every time. And who wants to grow 8 pointers? While the hunter will get the most bang for his buck, the deer farmer will get the least!



Almost all hunting preserves still charge by score. I don’t know of any that don’t. (We are trying it...let you know how it goes). We bought over 100 stocker bucks this year and paid TWO to FIVE times as much for 300 and 400 inch deer as we did for 200 inch deer. Score is still the MOST important characteristic to a hunter. Here is how I would rank the importance of the characteristics of a rack:



1. Score

2. Score

3. Score

4. Balance (The antlers have to be balanced from side to side)

5. Spread/Height or tine length (This is too close to call and makes up Shock Value)

6. Mass

7. Drop tines

8. Typical points

9. High non-typical points (kickers and points off of typical tines)

10. Low non-typical points (points off the bases and brow tines)



Almost all hunting preserves still pay BY THE SCORE. We will pay premiums for very wide deer or make deductions for very narrow deer but not enough to overcome score. We will pay way more for a 200 inch non-typical than we will for a clean 165 inch 8 pointer. Even if those 8 pointers are rare!



If you have a pen full of ugly 300 inch bucks and a pen full of great looking 200 inch typicals, the 200 inch typicals will sell faster BUT you will still get MORE for the 300 inch bucks! MUCH more.! As a matter of fact, if you have a pen full of 300 inch deer, feel free to give me a call. I’ll gladly take the high scoring ugly deer off your hands! I love the typicals. But when we write the checks, SIZE (SCORE) STILL DOES MATTER!



Whitetails are the number one hunted animal in North America for a reason. They are all different! As a grower I agree that big frames, mass and long beams are what we have to have in our programs. But if all I had to offer were clean typical deer that looked like our poorly managed wild deer herd.....well......lets just say I'd be in trouble! I love my pens to contain variety! It just gets me excited and gives me more options. I always start a hunt by sitting down and asking every hunter what type of deer he or she is looking for. After that initial meeting, if I've done my job well, I know where everyone should be going!:eek: ;)



All of us at Whitetail Dreams hope everybody has great Christmas and a great 2012!:)
 
Fred, I heard a rumor today that Arty died. I hope it's not true!!! We used Arty in our AI program this year and we are so excited for spring to arrive!!!
 
SJames said:
Here is part of a post I put up last year:



As long as I’m on the topic of high scoring deer I have to say that SIZE DOES MATTER and Score does also! With all the typical hype going around the industry I like to remind everyone about what I see from the hunters. These are just my own observations from our hunting ranches over the last 20 years or so. It is not set in stone and it is constantly changing. Trends for what hunters want will go one direction and then all of the sudden take on a new direction all together. I have never had any season where all hunters want the same thing. Here are some general rules I have found that hold true from year to year! Think about these next 4 paragraphs when you select what you want to breed with and what you want to grow over the next several years.



Within a price category, most hunters will prefer to take a typical wide buck (8 points) over anything else. They are simply getting the most bang for the buck with that kind of deer. For example if you offer a hunter the choice between hunting a 165 clean 8 point and a 169 14 point for the same price most of them would choose the clean 8 point. But let’s not get carried away with that type of thinking (like the industry has). If we offer the hunter the choice between the 165 clean 8 point and a 195 non-typical for the SAME price, they may say they like typical but they’ll shoot the 195 almost every time. And who wants to grow 8 pointers? While the hunter will get the most bang for his buck, the deer farmer will get the least!



Almost all hunting preserves still charge by score. I don’t know of any that don’t. (We are trying it...let you know how it goes). We bought over 100 stocker bucks this year and paid TWO to FIVE times as much for 300 and 400 inch deer as we did for 200 inch deer. Score is still the MOST important characteristic to a hunter. Here is how I would rank the importance of the characteristics of a rack:



1. Score

2. Score

3. Score

4. Balance (The antlers have to be balanced from side to side)

5. Spread/Height or tine length (This is too close to call and makes up Shock Value)

6. Mass

7. Drop tines

8. Typical points

9. High non-typical points (kickers and points off of typical tines)

10. Low non-typical points (points off the bases and brow tines)



Almost all hunting preserves still pay BY THE SCORE. We will pay premiums for very wide deer or make deductions for very narrow deer but not enough to overcome score. We will pay way more for a 200 inch non-typical than we will for a clean 165 inch 8 pointer. Even if those 8 pointers are rare!



If you have a pen full of ugly 300 inch bucks and a pen full of great looking 200 inch typicals, the 200 inch typicals will sell faster BUT you will still get MORE for the 300 inch bucks! MUCH more.! As a matter of fact, if you have a pen full of 300 inch deer, feel free to give me a call. I’ll gladly take the high scoring ugly deer off your hands! I love the typicals. But when we write the checks, SIZE (SCORE) STILL DOES MATTER!



Whitetails are the number one hunted animal in North America for a reason. They are all different! As a grower I agree that big frames, mass and long beams are what we have to have in our programs. But if all I had to offer were clean typical deer that looked like our poorly managed wild deer herd.....well......lets just say I'd be in trouble! I love my pens to contain variety! It just gets me excited and gives me more options. I always start a hunt by sitting down and asking every hunter what type of deer he or she is looking for. After that initial meeting, if I've done my job well, I know where everyone should be going!:eek: ;)



All of us at Whitetail Dreams hope everybody has great Christmas and a great 2012!:)



That is very interesting....I am just learning about the breeding.... hunting operations and hope this can come to be in my home state...keep up the good work....Fascinating.
 
No disrespect sam but i hear say of farms that have the kind of deer you speak of and they have no place to sell them. I know of a couple buyers that wont touch anything but nice wide big framed long tined bucks.They say sales are about 5 to 1 on the nice typ compared to the trashy look buck. Then again if thats the kind of bucks you can move,The sky is the limit for your ranch!!!
 
Sam I'm sure would agree, that many hunters come in saying they like one type of deer and end up shooting something entirely different. You have to have a variety of styles and shapes out there because you never know what a hunter is going to want. Most of them don't know what they want until they see it! Sure, some hunters want a clean typical, but a lot want something with "character" or an unusual feature like a drop or triple brow tines etc. etc. Any preserve that only has clean typicals in it is really limiting themselves.



We bought deer for the first time this year since we have a lot of deer ourselves. We bought a variety of deer and had no trouble getting them shot. Ranches aren't going to spend the money on 300" deer unless they think they have the hunters to shoot them. Most ranches have hunters to shoot deer in the 200 range so there will certainly be more demand for them. It is simple supply and demand.



PS - our TV show is going to be moving to a new time slot on Pursuit. We will still be on next Saturday night at 6:30 central, but then will move to Thursday night at 8 PM central and 11 AM on Mondays. We have had really positive response from the show - a number of folks that aren't deer farmers calling to tell us they love the show and like seeing something different on TV.
 
SJames said:
Here is part of a post I put up last year:



As long as I’m on the topic of high scoring deer I have to say that SIZE DOES MATTER and Score does also! With all the typical hype going around the industry I like to remind everyone about what I see from the hunters. These are just my own observations from our hunting ranches over the last 20 years or so. It is not set in stone and it is constantly changing. Trends for what hunters want will go one direction and then all of the sudden take on a new direction all together. I have never had any season where all hunters want the same thing. Here are some general rules I have found that hold true from year to year! Think about these next 4 paragraphs when you select what you want to breed with and what you want to grow over the next several years.



Within a price category, most hunters will prefer to take a typical wide buck (8 points) over anything else. They are simply getting the most bang for the buck with that kind of deer. For example if you offer a hunter the choice between hunting a 165 clean 8 point and a 169 14 point for the same price most of them would choose the clean 8 point. But let’s not get carried away with that type of thinking (like the industry has). If we offer the hunter the choice between the 165 clean 8 point and a 195 non-typical for the SAME price, they may say they like typical but they’ll shoot the 195 almost every time. And who wants to grow 8 pointers? While the hunter will get the most bang for his buck, the deer farmer will get the least!



Almost all hunting preserves still charge by score. I don’t know of any that don’t. (We are trying it...let you know how it goes). We bought over 100 stocker bucks this year and paid TWO to FIVE times as much for 300 and 400 inch deer as we did for 200 inch deer. Score is still the MOST important characteristic to a hunter. Here is how I would rank the importance of the characteristics of a rack:



1. Score

2. Score

3. Score

4. Balance (The antlers have to be balanced from side to side)

5. Spread/Height or tine length (This is too close to call and makes up Shock Value)

6. Mass

7. Drop tines

8. Typical points

9. High non-typical points (kickers and points off of typical tines)

10. Low non-typical points (points off the bases and brow tines)



Almost all hunting preserves still pay BY THE SCORE. We will pay premiums for very wide deer or make deductions for very narrow deer but not enough to overcome score. We will pay way more for a 200 inch non-typical than we will for a clean 165 inch 8 pointer. Even if those 8 pointers are rare!



If you have a pen full of ugly 300 inch bucks and a pen full of great looking 200 inch typicals, the 200 inch typicals will sell faster BUT you will still get MORE for the 300 inch bucks! MUCH more.! As a matter of fact, if you have a pen full of 300 inch deer, feel free to give me a call. I’ll gladly take the high scoring ugly deer off your hands! I love the typicals. But when we write the checks, SIZE (SCORE) STILL DOES MATTER!



Whitetails are the number one hunted animal in North America for a reason. They are all different! As a grower I agree that big frames, mass and long beams are what we have to have in our programs. But if all I had to offer were clean typical deer that looked like our poorly managed wild deer herd.....well......lets just say I'd be in trouble! I love my pens to contain variety! It just gets me excited and gives me more options. I always start a hunt by sitting down and asking every hunter what type of deer he or she is looking for. After that initial meeting, if I've done my job well, I know where everyone should be going!:eek: ;)



All of us at Whitetail Dreams hope everybody has great Christmas and a great 2012!:)



Sam you always have the best insight about hunting in the ranches. Your post is dead on and folks need to listen to what your saying. I agree we as an industry need to provide all styles of deer for the clients. I am not sure why some have this need to complain and criticize the production of big non-typicals. I also love the look many say they want to grow. However I don't like a boring looking straight up clean typical. I like character in a bucks look. I also don't understand the need of some to try to dictate what other farms should or shouldn't raise. That type of thinking seems too much along the lines of PETA telling us what we should or shouldn't eat, or should or shouldn't do with what we raise.
 
Even when you try or strive for big framed typicals you are still gonna get some with junk or a little trash. Also when selling shooters it is easier to get rid of cleaner typical looking deer than narley nontypical deer. I'm not telling anyone what to raise i'm just shareing my experiance on what is easier to get rid of. I have had several phone calls for shooters in the last week and they were all looking for more typical looking bucks said they could have a little extras they did not want to much junk. I have never got a call yet for someone looking for a 150_200 inch nontypical. The first thing any preserve asks is how clean and how wide. Seems to me this is what most want so this is what I'm gonna breed for. I'm sure I will still end up with some nontypicals but just not gonna go out of my way to creat problems for my deer heard.
 
I have not been involved with deer farming as long as many of you farmers on this thread. I remember the first breed sire that I fell in love with. He was named Blazer. Just the beautiful look of that buck had me hooked. That must have been about 10 years ago. When you look at the depth of breed stock available today it is truely amazing how far our industry has come. Every deer farmer in this business should look out at their herd and love what they see.You can probably guess the type of buck I still like today. We have been breeding for big northern typical type bucks because we like em. It is completly natural for all of us to like what we have and promote that type of product. Thankfully Whitetail racks grow in a great variety. If they didn't hunters would only need to shoot one and preserves would'nt have any repeat costumers ! So the easy answer to where we go from here is we go everywhere! There is room in this industry for people to grow all type of deer and we will see that in the future. Huge racks, perfect racks, piebalds, melanistic, and everything in between. We can each promote what we have and use tolorance as our guide to promote our industry as a whole!
 
I can see how some can come on here and complain about others coming on here and giving info on what they know. Some mabey would want to call some of these farms that heve alot of the more messy looking deer and tell them why they cant sell their shooters. Mabey someone would want to explain why alot of people cant get their deer into auctions because the deer they have and their pedigrees show that they grow more messy racks so then the auctions wont take them. Why you ask.. Cant get bids which equals no commission. Mabey someone would want to listen to the auctions when they say "You want to get into auctions and you want to sell your bucks...Breed like this" Mabey someone would want to catch up on things!!!! Advice is just that..Take it or leave it!!!!!!!
 

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