Who would you breed with !

I think in todays market a two year old with a "NO Name" Dam side isnt going to get you anywhere. Myself I would pick the three year old with the Killer pedigree. I see alot of Mid 200" bucks still selling very well today as long as their pedigree is top of the line. Even if he is lacking Brows and length breed him back to something with those genetics. That is the fun of this business. Everyone has their own opinion on what they are looking for and what they want to breed with. Whats everyone else's choice?

ncw2010 said:

I think in todays market a two year old with a "NO Name" Dam side isnt going to get you anywhere. Myself I would pick the three year old with the Killer pedigree. I see alot of Mid 200" bucks still selling very well today as long as their pedigree is top of the line. Even if he is lacking Brows and length breed him back to something with those genetics. That is the fun of this business. Everyone has their own opinion on what they are looking for and what they want to breed with. Whats everyone else's choice?

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if you got a 200 in shoter buck i dont think the hunter cares about the paper work on him . what im seeing sale now is nice clean 6x6 ect, high & wide and clean ( shotters ) , not the paper work the head work

The biggest question is probally are you going to make your money selling breeder stock or are you making money selling shooters? Another question is how do you know the no name doe isn't the next super doe on your farm. Barkley Young's little orange 23 doe came straight from penn state for less than $1000. She has gave them 14 bucks and 4 does. She has never lost a fawn, has three sons over 30 inches inside, and never had a two year old that was under 200 inches.



I think we all get too caught up in pedigrees. They are great because it helps the predictablity, but there are thousands of ways the genetic traits can match up. I think line breeding is the only way to get consistancy.



Maybe the answer is to breed to the two year old and the three year old.



I am enjoying the questions wayne

Wayne,



What does the 2 year old and 3 year old score? How much extras? I think I wold breed with Maxin Eagle!!!!

Good Question!!!

let me first start off by saying I think even if your in the shooter market you still have to breed with some sort of marketable pedigree because you will have to sell does eventually to someone and its better to sale someone something that shows constancy with back up than selling them on your opinion. As a buyer I will opt to spend a little more money on something that is proven in the past than taking a gamble on something that is unproven. (This will not apply if you plan on selling your does as shooters and you understand that you want even get enough money from the sale to even buy a half a ton of feed.)



I first would have to do a little analytical thinking with pedigrees of yearling and three year old against the pedigree of the doe I was planning to breed.



If my doe pedigree show history of good width and frame than I breed with three year old.



If the doe pedigree and the yearling pedigree cross has seen successful in the past on other farms and I could find the information to support this than I bred with the yearling.



Making a business decision and not a decision on emotions. (We all know making a decision based on emotions will more than likely cost you money in the long run.)



Decisions need to be made with back up like statistics and probability not emotion and opinion. Only if statistics and research is not avaliable to make your decision should emotion and opinion come into play.



Two year old is out of the question because I don't have a pedigree on the top side to even go by, I have to market the off springs and if they’re majority does this will be difficult with selling. I can’t give the buyer a pedigree that would show the strength of the fawns and their potential of success. If the buyer is a breeder he should know the majority dna make up of the off springs comes from the dam side and with no history would be a hard sale or I have to drop the price low enough to move them quickly and decreasing my profit margin or not even breaking even.



I need to make enough money on the sell of the fawns to a least cover the expense of the mother over the last year and until fawning the following year and if she isn’t making me money then she got to go.



Bottom line easier to market a well bred doe or buck fawn in today’s industry with a better profit margin.

Wayne,

I hope like you said there is no wrong answer here.

If it were me and i were breeding for the breeder market I would probably have to purchase semen and AI based on the description you give of the potential breeders, a damaged yearling is not going to sell well regardless of pedigree. The no name doe in the pedigree of the 2 yr old depending who the no name is related too could kill the market potential of offspring. The Killer pedigree with less than 20 IS spread and short brows will not be very marketable either regardless of pedigree, just look at twins of some of the most sought after sires in the industry, if they do not have the look to go along with the pedigree it is not going to market very well. Had that yearling you mentioned not been damaged and had the pedigree that people will view as marketable I would definately share some of my does with him...



On the flip side, if I am raising shooters or stockers....split your does up between all three and let them prove themself as a super sire.



A pedigree for breeder stock is always going to be important just as it is in every other animal industry, we do get caught up in it but I guess we are no different than all the other people trying to produce an income with Horses, cattle, dog, cats, birds, you name it...

roger thats not like you or are you holding back for more replys

Wayne, I still would NOT use it. No name to me means HARD SELL down the road. It was good to see you guys at the "30". Keep the JPM in line for me...

kurthumphrey said:

The biggest question is probally are you going to make your money selling breeder stock or are you making money selling shooters? Another question is how do you know the no name doe isn't the next super doe on your farm. Barkley Young's little orange 23 doe came straight from penn state for less than $1000. She has gave them 14 bucks and 4 does. She has never lost a fawn, has three sons over 30 inches inside, and never had a two year old that was under 200 inches.



I think we all get too caught up in pedigrees. They are great because it helps the predictablity, but there are thousands of ways the genetic traits can match up. I think line breeding is the only way to get consistancy.



Maybe the answer is to breed to the two year old and the three year old.



I am enjoying the questions wayne

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AGREED! Couldn't have said it better...

There are also alot of bucks out there that have great background paperwork and they dont hold a candle to some lesser lines.Pedigrees dont always spell great bucks!!

Arrowhead Whitetails said:

Wayne, I still would NOT use it. No name to me means HARD SELL down the road. It was good to see you guys at the "30". Keep the JPM in line for me...

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I don't disagree Michael, but one thing to keep in mind is that ALL of the deer in our industry were "no name" deer just a few short years ago. I guess the real question is what makes a line of deer a "good" line? Is it perception or reality? Is it big money or big production?

If a particular sire has been bred to thousands of does all across the country and we pick out a few good sons, does that make that sire or line of deer proven? What about the hundreds if not thousands of sons that went to hunting preserves or died that we've never heard about?



My point is that there are some exceptional "lines" of deer that people consider un-marketable, that produce at a much higher rate of probability and consistency than some of the "perceived" best producers.

I know one thing for sure... we can't survive as an industry if everyone keeps breeding to the same few lines over and over again. It's not healthy for the deer, and it's certainly not healthy for the continued growth (NEW FARMERS) of our industry.



I'm not saying that we shouldn't breed with "marketable" bloodlines. What I am saying is that if we don't start to become more open to new bloodlines it will stagnate our growth. There are only so many ways to keep making a green widget... you have to throw some red and yellow ones in there to keep things fresh!



Acceptance of a new bloodline isn't easy for most of us, but if a smaller/newer farmer can't be successful trying to make his own path, then why are we doing this?



Growth is good, new blood is good, and sharing the pie is very, very good for everyone of us. Not everyone is going to get a piece, but the idea and incentive that it can be done will light a spark that brings about creativity and persistence from some of our brightest and best new farmers.

If everyone plays follow the leader we will never grow as an industry, because we always be one or two steps behind!

Michael,



I agree with you 100% no name does not mean no production. I no of a deer that many have never heard of (but I believe they will soon) and the sire is unknown (Michael you know what buck I am talking about.) And although this buck has a unknown sire he is the biggest and prettyest typical buck I have ever seen and he is only 2yrs old. Although I can't post pics of him at this time (was asked not to) it wont be long and many of you will see this buck and rethink your thoughts on breeding with the unknown.



Some Bucks just SELL THEMSELVES.

Ooooooh I so much want to comment but... I just better not.

Roger, I was thinking the same thing.

Mike, you hit the nail on the head. The industry is ready for new blood. Everyone wants to play follow the leader but that isn't the answer. We should take pride in breeding something for ourself. If you think about it how rare is a maxbo, highroller, pa geronimo, rolex, shadow doe? Just to name a few!! If you think i am wrong look in the next sale book. In the top thirty there were less than 10 lots that didn't have one of these names in them.



I'm not saying don't breed to these lines, you have to start somewhere! I know some will try to turn this negative but what mike said needs to be thought about. If we want to grow then we have to diversify our bloodlines.



roger, would love to hear what you have to say

Roughcountrywhitetails,I'm not selling anything,so I hope you see what i'm about to explain is fairdinkum.It's great to hear you know of a really good looking buck,but if you don't know were he came from(the sire)then how can you afford to gamble where he is going(the offspring).By all means use him,it could be 5 generations before you see him again,if you know what your doing.At each generation you must cull on conformation.The pedigree may be the best, but there will still be culls. Unfortunately some people may sell their culls because on paper they look good.So conformation comes first then pedigree.By knowing the pedigree It is much less of a gamble when you invest your time & money into improving your herd.Your "herd" or your "line"is more important than the odd" star" you may throw.It is your genetic base which will add value to your animals,bring in a so called" star" which actually destroys your predictability on heritability & you have just devalued your whole herd.From what I can see nobody wants to discuss how broad the bio-diversity within all the whitetail subspecies is.Why is that? As a back ground, I breed back to origin with deer, not away.Its a lot harder to put it back together after its been messed with than doing the messing.I can give you the recipe cards for producing "stars" by mixing subspecies however they will not breed true.Cheers Sharkey