It is with a heavy heart that I post this thread in the hopes that you folks may have had a similar experience. Two weeks ago I let my fawns into a pen with four foot high rye grass. Two hours later I had a fawn down with massive bloat. He was symmetrically tight as a drum. After tubing, Bloat Release and needle decompression he died. At that point we moved the deer and cut all the rye grass down. This morning two deer were found down with bloat. The first was dead. She was so bloated that she had blown out her rectum and ruptured her abdominal wall with protruding intestines. The second fawn was again symmetrically bloated and tight. Same routine of tubing, Bloat Release and needle decompression produced no obvious results. We were able to get small pockets of gas out but nothing that made any great difference. He died within two hours. My pen has grass, hosta, ornamental grass, very short rye grass and normal lawn grass. All twenty fawns are still on bottles. They are also hitting on sweet feed and some browse consisting of maple leaves. I am at a loss as to what could cause two deer to go down at the same time. If anyone has any thoughts I would greatly appreciate it. I also have pictures that are graphic but if you think they would help determine the cause I would be glad to post them. Thank you!
Liz - I feel your pain. I lost one to bloat last night, too.
He is 40 days old, 22 lbs., ate (9 oz. milk) and acted normal at @ 2:30 pm, ran and played with the other fawns when we turned the water sprinkler on at 3:30 (it is hot here), layed down and napped with the others at 4:30, at 6:15 when we were making bottles for the next feeding, he was layed out flat, bloated like crazy. At 6:20 I treated with baking soda/water drench, .25 cc banamine for the discomfort, 10 cc C/D antitoxin for enterotoxemia, and 5 grams Target probiotic paste. This gave him some mild relief, probably the banamine, but within 45 minutes to an hour, his respiration was back to elevated and he again looked like he was very painful. We needle decompressed, and as the gas was coming out, you could really smell it, he had a seziure and died.
Difference, my pens are dirt, and I ration what leaves they get to browse on. They eat MaxRax fawn pellets, goat milk, Target probiotics daily, and get small amount of freshly pruned oak, pecan or other tree branches occassionally as treats. I tell all of you this NOT to start a fire storm about any of these products, I believe in the quality of the products that I use and put none of the responsibility for this on any of them. I only mention it to let you know how controlled of an environment my fawns are in. My point is, I think there is another underlying factor that contributes to bloat, and that is what I am in search of.
Liz and I have two extreme opposite sets of conditions, in terms of what the fawns have access to, and yet we have the same result. There has to be another factor that contributes to bloat that we are missing. Anyone have a thought?
He is 40 days old, 22 lbs., ate (9 oz. milk) and acted normal at @ 2:30 pm, ran and played with the other fawns when we turned the water sprinkler on at 3:30 (it is hot here), layed down and napped with the others at 4:30, at 6:15 when we were making bottles for the next feeding, he was layed out flat, bloated like crazy. At 6:20 I treated with baking soda/water drench, .25 cc banamine for the discomfort, 10 cc C/D antitoxin for enterotoxemia, and 5 grams Target probiotic paste. This gave him some mild relief, probably the banamine, but within 45 minutes to an hour, his respiration was back to elevated and he again looked like he was very painful. We needle decompressed, and as the gas was coming out, you could really smell it, he had a seziure and died.
Difference, my pens are dirt, and I ration what leaves they get to browse on. They eat MaxRax fawn pellets, goat milk, Target probiotics daily, and get small amount of freshly pruned oak, pecan or other tree branches occassionally as treats. I tell all of you this NOT to start a fire storm about any of these products, I believe in the quality of the products that I use and put none of the responsibility for this on any of them. I only mention it to let you know how controlled of an environment my fawns are in. My point is, I think there is another underlying factor that contributes to bloat, and that is what I am in search of.
Liz and I have two extreme opposite sets of conditions, in terms of what the fawns have access to, and yet we have the same result. There has to be another factor that contributes to bloat that we are missing. Anyone have a thought?
Joined Apr 2009
2,617 Posts | 0+
Edgar, WI
Sorry to both of you for the losses.
I really don't know much at all about this boating issue. Currently we have 11 fawns on the bottle. Some of them are really big in the belly area. They all are active, and their poo is really good. One of them is really big bodied, and doesn't eat nearly what we think she should be eating, but this has been going on for a while already. Her poo is some of the best looking pellets you could ever want.
They eat Calf Manna pellets and have grasses and clover to eat. But they are big in the belly area. All this talk about bloat has me concerned.
I see you gave 10cc of the C/D antitoxin. That seems like a lot. Why 10cc? How was it given, in a shot or orally? I ask only trying to learn about this bloat stuff.
Ours have been this way for a while already. How fast does this bloat issue attack and kill?
I'm trying to figure out if we have an issue or not.
I really don't know much at all about this boating issue. Currently we have 11 fawns on the bottle. Some of them are really big in the belly area. They all are active, and their poo is really good. One of them is really big bodied, and doesn't eat nearly what we think she should be eating, but this has been going on for a while already. Her poo is some of the best looking pellets you could ever want.
They eat Calf Manna pellets and have grasses and clover to eat. But they are big in the belly area. All this talk about bloat has me concerned.
I see you gave 10cc of the C/D antitoxin. That seems like a lot. Why 10cc? How was it given, in a shot or orally? I ask only trying to learn about this bloat stuff.
Ours have been this way for a while already. How fast does this bloat issue attack and kill?
I'm trying to figure out if we have an issue or not.
The antitoxin bottle has dosage recommendations, and it says the regular dose for a lamb/kid is 5 cc, the treatment amount is double that. It is a shot, SC. My goat expert agreed with this, I called her before I did it, just to be sure.
In my case, this particular fawn had a tendency to bloat after bottles, and we had even put him on straight water for a day a few weeks ago until his system "cleared up" and then gradually cut him back over to milk. Several weeks went just fine, he was pooping "big deer" pellets regularly, and showed no other signs until the events I described above.
In my case, this particular fawn had a tendency to bloat after bottles, and we had even put him on straight water for a day a few weeks ago until his system "cleared up" and then gradually cut him back over to milk. Several weeks went just fine, he was pooping "big deer" pellets regularly, and showed no other signs until the events I described above.
Joined Apr 2009
2,617 Posts | 0+
Edgar, WI
Joined Apr 2009
1,231 Posts | 0+
PA
I am so sorry for your losses.
I am wondering did your fawns (both of you) already have shots for c&d and the fusoguard?
My vet recommends 6cc of c&d at the first sign of bloat... it's so hard in any of these situations to say what's right or wrong when you get so many different things from the "professionals".....But it sucks so bad not knowing...
Should I have given more...should you have given less...Would it matter???
I hate not knowing when we have little one's counting on us.
The loss is so hard,but the worry of what to do the next time...is the worst.
I lost a great buck fawn last year.
And he was my favorite...I cross my fingers and hope we figured out what happened ...but....You never know
One other question was it frothy bloat or just air?
I know you said gas but just checking/wondering from both of you.
Not trying to fight just looking for answers for all of us ....and our little ones
If I loss another one EVER it will go to Penn State.
I am wondering did your fawns (both of you) already have shots for c&d and the fusoguard?
My vet recommends 6cc of c&d at the first sign of bloat... it's so hard in any of these situations to say what's right or wrong when you get so many different things from the "professionals".....But it sucks so bad not knowing...
Should I have given more...should you have given less...Would it matter???
I hate not knowing when we have little one's counting on us.
The loss is so hard,but the worry of what to do the next time...is the worst.
I lost a great buck fawn last year.
And he was my favorite...I cross my fingers and hope we figured out what happened ...but....You never know
One other question was it frothy bloat or just air?
I know you said gas but just checking/wondering from both of you.
Not trying to fight just looking for answers for all of us ....and our little ones
If I loss another one EVER it will go to Penn State.
Just gas on both of mine. Home necropsy just showed green gass in the stomaches. Next one will definately go for a professional necropsy. What made it harder was one fawn had already survived a fox attack and the other was born when the doe was struck by a car and he was forcibly ejected from the womb. Took alot of work to get them to the outside pen and doing well. Sometimes Mother Nature is a *****.
I have become quite pragmatic on the survival of fawns...... some are born ,looking for a place to die.
Robbie, I don't know if this will help but if your grasping for straws I'll throw it out there. A week or so ago it got pretty warm here(Illinois) with a heat index of 105 so we decided to not warm the bottles so much. We had been feeding just tap water warm anyway so a nice cool drink of milk seemed like they might enjoy it. We were right, and the fawns were eagerly sucking it down. A 5 week old buck fawn we were feeding(he's quite the guzzler) sucked his down as usual but then I noticed he went off by himself with his head down and hair all bristled up. He stood there looking at the ground. We went over to him and his belly was swelled up hard as a rock. He did not want us to touch it. We give him some gas-x and some cornoil made him pee and poop. He eventually laid down. We set up with him for about an hour and he got up and came over and we were able to rub his belly. I'm happy to say he was fine in the morning and it's been a week and no more problems so far. None of the other fawns had a similar reaction and all I can figure is because he sucked his down so fast it must have cramped his stomach up or something. I should go back and check but it seemed to me that you mentioned one time about feeding right out of the fridge. If I'm mistaken please forgive me but perhaps your little guy might have had a similar reaction. I'm not saying it was your fault or anything like that I know you feed a ton of fawns and wouldn't be afraid to try any of your technics on my own fawns but since I did get this bloating like reaction I thought I would just pass on my thoughts. Rick
Rick - good thoughts, and I had a similar experience earlier this summer. Last year, I did feed cold milk, with no problems at all. This year, for whatever reason, this group of fawns don't like it cold, and so they are all getting warm bottles.
Here are pictures from the gross necropsy - look how angry the intestines are, very dark, and very full of gas. The huge "balloon" looking thing sticking up to the right side of the photo is the cecum - NEVER seen one that distended. The other shot is of the heart & lungs, they look fine. Matter of fact, all of the other organs look fine. Only the guts are a mess.
My vet went through this one with me, and she feels like it is probably clostridium, based on all of the physical and gross observations.
My whole pen got booster doses of C/D anti-toxin today, and they will all start the vaccine regimine at 6 weeks old.
My vet went through this one with me, and she feels like it is probably clostridium, based on all of the physical and gross observations.
My whole pen got booster doses of C/D anti-toxin today, and they will all start the vaccine regimine at 6 weeks old.
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Joined Apr 2009
558 Posts | 0+
Defiance, MO
We had a similar experience. We had a fawn in perfect shape at noon. She took her bottle great. By the next feeding she was bloated. By the time we made it to the vet to get a tube and back home she was dead. The only thing we could come up with was the nipple we used at noon had a larger hole in it letting her drink it too fast.
Joined May 2009
1,166 Posts | 0+
Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Robbie & Liz, here we go again. I typed this all this afternoon but It didn`t send for some reason. I`m just guessing here and kinda looking for the connection between bloat and Clostridial perfringens. I`ve lost 3 fawns that I know of to Clostridial perfringens and all 3 did bloat near death. All 3 were rapid deaths. Like from hours to over nite and at death they all bloated. I`ve never put these two together until Robbie sparked a thought with the 10cc`s of antitoxin. Not saying that all bloat cases are C&DT just wondering if this may be a heads up sign of Clostridial Perfringens. I didn`t see the necropcy pictures this afternoon but those intestines sure look nasty and if only I was looking I would suspect Perfringens. I asked at a seminar last year if Clostridial perfringens can be reversed, the answer was yes, IF detected soon enough. Treatment is heavy does`s of Penicillin. The big question we ask ourselves are we dealing with CD&T or something else? It`s too hard for me to say because my experience with CD&T deaths were so rapid I didn`t have time to respond with anything. The buck fawn I lost back in Jan. 08 Just showed a seperation from others and I thought possible pneumonia so I responded with Baytril. By morning he was bloated and dead. Necropcy showed death from Clostridial Prefringens. Sure would be nice to find a good answer to whether or not bloat can be a direct link to Perfringens? Just thinking out loud here and it may spark another thought among the more knowledgeable out here. Not a lot of answers here just a few more questions from a *******.
Liz now those look fine to me. I think there is 2 different cases between yours and Robbie`s. The ones that I have watched done have been hours after death and the intestines were blackened in parts and some were all blackened. The ones I opened myself from injury deaths all looked like the one you have posted here. Maybe someone else may have a little more insite to the bloat you experienced on this one. Knowledge. Don`t we all wish we had more on these critters?
So, back to the concept that 100 different things can cause bloat. So frustrating! I wish this fawn would have given a physical indication earlier, because I believe that you can treat Col. perf. if caught soon enough. Problem is, how do you catch it sooner, when they aren't showing one single symptom!!!!!????? We have to crack the code on this, someway, somehow!
I don't think there is set answer for that. Depends on what caused it, what the other symptoms are, how you are treating it..... I have had it go down in a few hours, a few days, or not at all.