Fair chase??

Sharkey, I like you. You are transparent and I knew what you meant. I was just stickin' my head up out the fox hole! I thought you might find me in your sights! Ol' Scrape.

G'day Ol' scrape I like y'all too.Y'all get along real great,& y'all help each other real well. Cheers mate,all the best from down under. ( ps, did I get "y'all" right?)

Fars

I called the DNR here in MN. It will go on B&C & P&Y books if you shoot a deer in a military base. Camp Ripply comes to mind. To get in the base you have to go through a gate and it is shut behind you. I have not walked the whole perimiter so I am not shure about the hight of the fence all the way around.

I may be wrong ...But I would think...because lack of human participation/involvement in breeding and feeding would be the main factor there.They are naturally that way. UnEnhanced by humans in ANY way????

I pulled this from the Boone and Crocket website!



FAIR CHASE STATEMENT

FAIR CHASE, as defined by the Boone and Crockett Club, is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild, native North American big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals.



I pulled this from SCI website.

SCI believes that the following conditions must be met, or exceeded, in order for the concept of “fair chase” to apply for hunting mammals within high fenced areas in North America:



•The animals hunted must have freely resided on the property on which they are being hunted for at least six months, or longer.

•The hunting property shall provide escape cover that allows the animals to elude hunters for extended periods of time and multiple occurrences. Escape cover, in the form of rugged terrain or topography, and/or dense thickets or stands of woods, shall collectively comprise at least 50% of the property.

•The animals hunted must be part of a breeding herd that is a resident on the hunted property.

•The operators of the preserve must provide freely available and ample amounts of cover, food and water at all times.

•Animals that are to be hunted must exhibit their natural flight/survival instincts.

•No zoo animals, exhibited animals or tame animals are to be hunted.

•No hunting or selling of hunting rights to a specified animal.

•Hunting methods employed cannot include driving, herding or chasing animals to awaiting hunters.

•Every effort must be made to utilize all meat commonly consumed from a taken animal.

The minimum amount of land necessary to meet these requirements varies by region, terrain and habitat type. Setting a standard minimum area is unlikely to be realistic. However, SCI recommends that state/provincial wildlife management agencies work with the operators and the hunting community within their area to establish specific regulations to guide the operation of hunting preserves.



Though you all would like these tid bits!

I believe that's how it should be anyway...For the most part!

And if there was financially a way to charge a set fee across the board, A hunting Ranch would make a killing if it offered a hunt for a set fee...Stock mostly nice buck than a couple Great one's thrown in....For a reasonable fee I can see Most hunters buying in. If terrain and cover is advertised as listed above.



Outsiders see us advertise deer with names,looking Tame...Then people shoot them.



I myself didn't like seeing Sudden Impact on biologic website I FELT he looked miserable and then Died real young.Before he died I didn't think it was a good idea to spot light a deer that big that young. Lots of People were watching that are (Outsiders) I think that hurt us as an industry.I don't feel as Stewart's to these animals we should be pushing healthy limits.

BUT THAT IS ONLY HOW I FEEL...NOT PUTTING ANYONE DOWN FOR THEIR DEER OR MARKETING PLOY!!

I myself know of deer breeders selling big tame breeders as shooters...And I ethically have a problem with that.I feel that animal has made you enough money to care for it...Then you should.But that is ME.

I don't want to make anybody mad ...But think we need to look at ourselves to see what some of the problem might be.And these were big name examples that were really out there in the public...But we all may be guilty in some way.I have been in preserves and seen many things I don't like or approve of.We all need to step back and look at our industry from the outside and see what we don't like.AND CHANGE IT...We are all to afraid of hurting someone's feelings.

I dont know what i think about sending tame animals to preserves. I raise a calm herd. Not tame. I have a buck that i havent bottle fed but will eat treats that you throw to them. Now my experience here is we had this buck get out this summer. This is a buck that in a pen would get 5 feet from you and wait till you tossed him a treat. Anyway i Hunted this animal with dart gun in hand for 7 days. I saw him a couple times that week but never could get close enough to put a dart in him. Closest i got was 60 yards if that. I did get him but it took me sitting in a blind and setting up a drive to put a dart in him.



So what this tells me is one day out of that pen and he was as wild as the next deer. Never in my life would i have thought that. We ended up haveing to hunt him as you would a deer that never seen a fence. Could this be just this animal i dont know and hopefully i will never have to find out again.LOL

Most deer do...and most....As every Deer farmer knows get spooked by different surroundings people smells...Bring a stranger to you place Even in their own setting The tamest deer can turn to the wildest...So it's not that I think they will walk up to a hunter...I just think that the waters start getting blurred somewhere between breeders and shooters.

It may just be that I am a silly girl, but I feel If you raise a Cow as a pet...at a petting zoo...You should not kill it.

I have many deer that will died here they made me plenty of money...If I can't get them to a good Breeding Home/farm They have paid their way...I don't know if I am explaining myself Well enough...Sorry if not.

Some treat some like Pets Then shoot them.I do feel bottle raised could be shooters.It is all how it's done. Heck I would love to bring a so called(Real Hunter...LOL)Here and let them try and dart some of my bottle raised.I hand stick most of mine,But they Know when that dart gun comes out!!

Just as an example...

I have Three separate herds.

I call them my Shooter herd,My breeder Herd And My Pet Herd...

They have Three Separate Herd Statuses.

(Breeder) is Full Cwd TB certification and Brucellosis accredited.

(Shooter) Full Cwd

(Pet)Only put tags in their ears when PA made it mandatory.



Not that one herd is better or worse bloodlines.

But some earn Pet status, Which just means they will not leave unless it is a breeding or farm home.These deer earned their keep one way or another.

I don't put the Shooter herd or Breeder herd through the stress of TB certification because most are going in state if pets or shooters.Why have the fee of certification and risk of losing a pet or shooter without need.

If I need to test one of the shooters I can pull it and do it. I just have to keep them all separated.

oww no you did explain clearly. I was just giving my undesided stance i guess. That whole situation surprised me. Because i thought i was going out there and shake a food bucket and this guy would come running. Couldnt have been further from what happened. So im on the fence. But i got ya

The SCI definition is excellent.Would it not be wise to build an industry code of practice around this?The SCI is highly regarded & respected everywhere,by standardising around their definition,wouldn't that raise the level of acceptability amongst hunters?If the industry association can not achieve consensus,I would marketing the ones that do around this code & see if the market decides.

Circle J Ranch said:

I pulled this from SCI website.

SCI believes that the following conditions must be met, or exceeded, in order for the concept of “fair chase” to apply for hunting mammals within high fenced areas in North America:



•The animals hunted must have freely resided on the property on which they are being hunted for at least six months, or longer.

•The hunting property shall provide escape cover that allows the animals to elude hunters for extended periods of time and multiple occurrences. Escape cover, in the form of rugged terrain or topography, and/or dense thickets or stands of woods, shall collectively comprise at least 50% of the property.

•The animals hunted must be part of a breeding herd that is a resident on the hunted property.

•The operators of the preserve must provide freely available and ample amounts of cover, food and water at all times.

•Animals that are to be hunted must exhibit their natural flight/survival instincts.

•No zoo animals, exhibited animals or tame animals are to be hunted.

•No hunting or selling of hunting rights to a specified animal.

•Hunting methods employed cannot include driving, herding or chasing animals to awaiting hunters.

•Every effort must be made to utilize all meat commonly consumed from a taken animal.

The minimum amount of land necessary to meet these requirements varies by region, terrain and habitat type. Setting a standard minimum area is unlikely to be realistic. However, SCI recommends that state/provincial wildlife management agencies work with the operators and the hunting community within their area to establish specific regulations to guide the operation of hunting preserves.

Click to expand...

•The animals hunted must be part of a breeding herd that is a resident on the hunted property.

What about hunting ranches that don't raise enough of their own bucks to sell hunts from? And what about the average deer grower who doesn't own their own hunting ranch?



•No hunting or selling of hunting rights to a specified animal.

We have all heard people say something similar to this, "I saw this buck last year and I hunted for him this fall and got him." So we know there are folks that do this even in the "wild" populations.

Also we have some hunters who have said they want to "hunt the biggest buck on the place." Does this fall into hunting for a specified animal?



My only point is no one can "set a standard" that will fit with what everyone thinks is right, or what works for them. There will always be those who will object in some way to some part of any idea. All any of us can do is try and provide a reasonable setting and an enjoyable and safe time for our clients.

Self regulation is better than legislation.I hope for every ones sake it is only the market which decides. cheers sharkey

Fair chase is hunting in the wild, hunting a wild animal. Any thing in a fence is not fair chase 50 acres or 50,000 it's all the same. It's an animal that is limited to where it can go. I dont think deer drives,hunting bait, hunting from your truck and many other methods of hunting are fair chase.I M O the B&C world record typical was not killed fair chase even though it was a wild deer and completly legal the way it as killed. It was killed by a deer drive and not on the deers natural movement. I am all for hunting in an enclosed area, that gives hunters the chance to harvest an animal that in no way could they ever do in the wild. Every one that raises deer would be disapointed if there deer would only average 170 inch as a 5 year old, but go kill a 170 inch net typical in the wild it's not that easy and if all hunting in the wild was true fair chase it would be even harder. I will never hunt in a fenced in are but sure do hope that there are plenty of others that want to. I do like to raise deer and love to hunt the wild one's.

RLAwhitetails said:

Fair chase is hunting in the wild, hunting a wild animal. Any thing in a fence is not fair chase 50 acres or 50,000 it's all the same. It's an animal that is limited to where it can go. I dont think deer drives,hunting bait, hunting from your truck and many other methods of hunting are fair chase.I M O the B&C world record typical was not killed fair chase even though it was a wild deer and completly legal the way it as killed. It was killed by a deer drive and not on the deers natural movement. I am all for hunting in an enclosed area, that gives hunters the chance to harvest an animal that in no way could they ever do in the wild. Every one that raises deer would be disapointed if there deer would only average 170 inch as a 5 year old, but go kill a 170 inch net typical in the wild it's not that easy and if all hunting in the wild was true fair chase it would be even harder. I will never hunt in a fenced in are but sure do hope that there are plenty of others that want to. I do like to raise deer and love to hunt the wild one's.

Click to expand...

Not trying to pick on you, but I'm sorry, your reasoning is just not that simple.



What if you hunt the suburbs where the deer have become used to people... there's no fence, they are "wild" deer, is that fair?

How about using trail cams, or camo, or a compound bow, scents, mock scrapes, scouting... heck a RIFLE certainly doesn't seem "fair" to me when you can kill an animal from 300+ yards away.

Unless you break out the loin cloth and sharpened slate tipped spear, I'm just not buying the wild thing.

I'm also a little discouraged to hear that you think 50 acres and 50,000 acres are the same??? Sorry, but that make zero sense and a blanket statement like that with countless variables not accounted for doesn't jive.

I'm sorry to hear that you would never hunt a preserve... which is basically saying you like to raise deer, but you don't believer/support our end market.

Again, I'm honestly not trying to attack you here... just had to say what was on my mind.

Every game animal in Nth America would be artificialised to some extent I would have thought. Roads,farms,crops,cities,fishermen,hunting,etc,etc.

Kinda a double edge sword by saying you will raise deer to make money by someone else hunting them but you would not hunt them yourself.....That might make it hard to sell your shooters to some ranch owners down the road..I guess i just dont get it!!!!!

To many variables to this subject. To many points of view. No way to get all to agree. To each his own so lets move on to a different subject before this starts a war.

I agree with the variables Virgil. Maybe the stance to promote fair chase hunting ranches should be to educate with in our industry before taking it to the public. Maybe that way you have more voices promoting our industry rather then still having people raise deer and not support preserve hunting. This way we all stand united and not seperated by the ideals of what our different opinions on hunting are.

Sharkey

All Associations and most of the US hunting ranches have very similiar (if not identical) codes of ethics pertaining to the harvesting of enclosure kept animals. No need here to re-invent the wheel.

Hey Sharkey! "Gidday" to yourself. How ya going" ? Keep replying for both of us regarding the thread topic. I've chimed in in the past about this topic. It's been a long time since I've done the study but I think I remember the "y'all" can be credited to the Scots!