Fair chase??

Roger,



All I can tell you is you should have been there when those rules were being discussed at a Nadefa Cervid Congress about 7 or 8 years ago. I thought we were going to have an all out bar type brawl. Believe me when I tell everyone, we don't want to go there! Tim Conduct was there, ask him about it sometime!!!







We hunt "High Fenced Fair Chase" and its different for every person. The concept for the kid in the wheel chair or the 87 year old man is different than the concept for the young 19 year old thats been hunting his whole life. But if he wants to strip down to his loin cloth in 10 degree weather and try to kill one of our bucks with a spear, I'd say that would be more than fair

any video Sam?????

Thanks scott.I know Im not endearing myself to you good folks by pushing this issue.The last thing you want is some flamin dingo from downunder telling you how to suck eggs.I cannot help the fact that the industry there is heading for the same train wreck as has happened elsewhere.I have lived through this industry becoming criminalised because of the actions of a few.If the industry loses acceptability,amongst hunters & the general public the antis will have you.These are rhetorical questions,are your codes voluntary?What are the outcomes for those who bring the industry into disrepute?Please be aware Im not in a position too, nor am I trying to sell you anything.I have raised this in good faith to other good keen deer people.Ill leave it now & continue to enjoy every ones thoughts & views on the many positive things on this forum. Best wishes Sharkey

Hey, Sharkey. I saw some pics of the blackbucks you bought. Very nice specimens. G'Day, Sir.

Stone the crows! Its a small world.That photo makes me look like I have just eaten a bag of potatoes(followed by a blackbuck).The story is the zoo needed new blood & I was doing a swap.When I say Im a veteran in this battle, you can see why.I have been hand to hand with the greenies & antis for 25 years.They hate it when hunters & fishermen achieve measurable conservation outcomes.At that time we had just put a bill in front of parliament to re-establish game reserves in NSW (still waiting).Myself helping out the zoo was the worst the could concoct against us.We got millions in free publicity(thanks greenies).Hoped you liked the story, great piece of fiction. Cheers sharkey

Is that like "starve the bardies, mate"? Sharkey, you come across as innocent through-out it all. I would agree. Nice blackbuck. Shalom.

I agree with Sam, we hunt high fence fair chase and that is what I tell people if they ask. I have to say we aren't getting nearly as many snide remarks or turned up noses as we did even 5 years ago - I think attitudes are changing. Every year we get people who have never hunted a high fence place before and everyone that has come to our ranch has loved it and wants to come back!! They usually say they should have done this years ago.

Wild Rivers,I am hearing the same thing.

Hi all,

I rarely weigh in on threads here, but the fair chase one really gripes me. I know lots of people that will only hunt wilderness areas without a high fence, and then they hunt planted pheasants, and fish in farm ponds. SCI's definition is one of the best that I have seen, and at my ranch, we support SCI. B+C will never get my support due to their stance on fair chase, and neither will Rocky Mountain Elk.



Bottom line, this industry is supported by hunters, not restaurants and supermarkets. Otherwise, we should be raising meat fallow deer, and not whitetails. When people in the industry to put down hunting a high fenced area, it cannot help anyone on this forum. I belong to a lot of shooting, hunting and reloading forums. And a lot of those people will "never" hunt my 1300 acres because it is high fenced. But, when they actually get to my ranch, their misunderstandings go away fast, and they begin to see a lot of advantages to hunting a high fenced place. Not the least of which is that it is far safer with only known and a few number of people hunting.



But I digress, my main point is that we are foolish not to support our own industry... and that means that we need to support hunting high fenced areas. For my money, the SCI definition is the best that I have seen in a publicly recognized forum.

Hardpan

G'day Hardpan.Im curious if you've tried marketing your place on the concept that you comply with the SCI codes of practice ,& if you've had positive results from that? Cheers Sharkey

Just call the NADeFA office and ask for the "Fair Chase Hunting Ranch White Paper" and a Code Of Etrhics. All of these things have been taken care of. Fair chase has nothing to do with a fence, low or high. It has to do with escape cover. To bring up numbers of how big a place may be to be fair chase is short sighted and not well thought out. You could have 100,000 acres in an open area with one draw running through it. You could have 200 acres with full cover. Cover types and habitat is totally different in each state and area. No shoe fits every foot. Maybe some are not NADeFA members and have not seen these papers and if I was not a computer moron I would post them here, but as you see I can't.

Oh I forgot. Yes Sam, I was a little bit hot there. You know in the end I think we got it right. I guess what had me so mad, was the fact that some of the guys were so smug about telling others what they had to do while they were doing the opposite. I never cared much for that. The one good thing that came of it was I learned what ancillary(spelling) means. EVERYONE NEEDS TO GET THE WHITE PAPER AND ITS ONLY ONE PAGE, SO STAY ON THE SAME PAGE!!!!!!

I don't know if this has ever been posted but I thought it was a great read!



"Exotics" "Fair Chase" and the "Fence"

by Eddie G. Potts

Hunting preserves offer a controversial and often misunderstood type of hunting. It seems that so many people are against this type of hunting, when in fact they have never hunted on a preserve, never visited a preserve, and only heard someone else's negative views on hunting game that is restricted with a fence.



I love to hunt exotic big game, I have hunted on many hunting preserves and western ranches, and I also own and operate an exotic preserve in Ohio . With this background I feel I can offer some insights on the sport.



First, let's start with the game. Exotic animals are not native to the area in which they are hunted. We have many species of sheep; the barbado, mouflon, argali, and barbary to name a few. Russian boar, fallow, sika, and axis deer are just a few more of the dozens of animals that are available to hunt. These animals have come from all over the world, and now after many years of management they're plentiful enough to offer our sportsmen exciting hunting without the cost or risk of leaving the country.



Our exotic hunting is the finest in the world. So why go halfway around the world when you can hunt the same animals on American soil, and not suffer any reduction in the quality of the terrain or the challenge of the hunt? In fact, many countries where the animals originally were obtained have endured problems such as drought and poaching to the point that the very same species are endangered and cannot even be hunted in their native habitat.



The state of Texas can boast of larger herds of animals than now exist in their original homeland. Also, the size and trophy potential of these animals is greatly improved which continually upgrades the quality of exotic hunting.



A good hunting preserve needs a substantial amount of acreage for animals to feed and find cover. In Texas that might be 5,000 acres, in Ohio it could be only 500 acres because of the difference in terrain and cover. The animals quickly become accustomed to the terrain, the fence, and the lay of the land. When being hunted they are very adapt at using the hills and hollows to elude the hunters.



On our hunting preserve it is our goal to help the hunter take his big game animal, but on many occasions we finish the day with no game. I don't know if that speaks highly of the wild animals and vast acreage, or poorly of my guiding abilities. It does prove, however, that this is not a "fish-in-a-*barrel" hunt. There are a few bad hunting preserves, but the majority offer a "no kill-no pay" policy and are fair and enjoyable places to hunt.



If you love to hunt, expanding into exotics will open the door to some of the most beautiful and exciting animals you have ever imagined. You can hunt long before local big game season opens and long after it closes.



It seems that people don't make the same attempt to check out exotic hunting preserves that they would if they were planning a hunt in the rockies. It should be no different with exotics. Call and ask questions, get all the information you can, and check some references. On our operation we have a video tape for potential customers. It shows the terrain, the animals, the services, and a few successful hunts. I think in the future many other preserves will make the same offer so that the sportsman can see what is available from the comfort of his home. After watching a video a hunter will know more about a preserve, will ask better questions, and perhaps ensure his chances of a satisfying hunt.



Another benefit exotic preserves offer is a place to start young hunters. Do you remember when you were a kid? I sure do. I would walk and hunt all day only to see one or two deer flags going over the next ridge. When young, you're inexperienced and impatient. It was a long wait for a successful outcome to a hunt. On a preserve the young hunter will be able to see many animals and hopefully get a shot much sooner, not because it's easier, but because the "fence" keeps the animals in and man and other predators out. The young hunter will get more opportunities, and if his marksmanship is off (I think mine is always off), it might only be a few hours until the next chance, not a few days. This opportunity also allows us (father, uncle, guide) to observe the young hunter in action and make suggestions or corrections on shooting, stalking, and gun safety. The young hunter will eventually settle down, make his first kill on a big game animal and thus obtain the confidence and experience necessary to see him through those long days afield with no game to show for his efforts. Last, but not least, he will experience an exciting day afield with father or other family member where he finally becomes successful in the ranks of hunters; a day he will treasure the rest of his life.



Now we have the opposite side; the veteran big game hunter who has been all over the United States and has taken all the big game animals, maybe to the point of it becoming routine. It's time for him to try exotic hunting. He'll find the fence doesn't diminish the animals natural instincts, plus, he'll have dozens of new and exciting species of animals to choose from.



Exotic hunting can be interpreted many ways, and I have only outlined a few. When a preserve is set up properly the type of hunting offered is both challenging and demanding. As a result we are seeing tremendous growth in the business. You are cheating yourself if you condemn a type of hunting without researching it. I believe you'll find an ex*citing hunt when you combine "exotics," "fair chase," and "the fence."



This Article was written by Eddie G. Potts and was published by the Professional Guides Association, it appeared in a 1988 Publication. It is included on this website to encourage a potential hunter to consider the variables and often overlooked positives of this type of hunting. Even after 20 years from the time this article was written, the world has changed so much, yet this article is still on point today. The old saying comes to mind; the more things change, the more they stay the same.

I am new to this post and have not read all the previous pages, but cannot help but want to add my experiences in S. Texas hunting that should be taken into consideration when discussing "Fair Chase" and the size of enclosure. Being from S Tx and hunting free range low cost hunt whitetails most of my life, I had the opportunity to visit the King Ranch on a ranch tour around the mid 1980's and many more since then. This ranch was originally 1.2 million acres, now I believe it is split into 400,000 + 800,000 acres. all low fence. Hunting was not allowed before recent years and the wildlife was native in all respects. Amazing place for me to witness and I was amazed how the deer and wildlife were not afraid of human presence. We could drive many miles on this ranch and see native unmanaged deer moving around unafraid of human presence since hunting pressure was non-existent. The size of this ranch made this possible since its borders are hunted hard. These animals were much easier to approach than the exotics that I raise in high fence pastures . Would hunting low fence large ranches such as above be considered "Fair Chase" as anyone could tag out faster on this type of ranch than any of my high fence exotic ranches where the animals depend on my feed to survive. I do not hunt my exotics, I raise them for live sale , and the capture of them can be challenging at times. This is only a small part of the consideration that must take place before defining 'Fair Chase".

I would like to get rid fo the term "fair chase" and just say free range or high fence. Much more accurate I think.

I here ya, humans have guns and bows and the deer don't, I would say most deer would think that's not very fair!!! Fair would be hand to hand, no weapons! Nothing in life is fair.

Whenever we are at a show and someone asks me if our hunts are fair chase, I say yes, on a high fenced ranch.

Wow!...can of worms is right! Sharkey, your original question was ''What is the North American definition of ''fair chase''? Certainly the extreme vast majority of the North American hunters, to include myself, would answer it exactly as Virgil did, i.e. ''fair chase = no high fence'' - period! There is a GAZZILLION variables present here that would definitely make 'one' be more like the 'other' in terms of circumstances/conditions of the hunt itself as it relates to ''fairness'', but the fact remains, fair chase is typically termed ''no high fence''. DJ asked ''If you had a fence around your whole state would that be high fence?'' It wouldn't take a fence big enough to go around an entire state to all but eliminate the difference between a fence and no fence. A fence big enough to encompass ALL the natural/normal deer movement that occurs outside a fence, like: daily and seasonal movement caused by food, breeding; individual dispersement; to include movement caused by normal and/or extreme hunting pressure; would accomplish this, BUT, it would still be a ''fenced hunt'' to many. Again, the variables and opinions are countless. Like Gary said ''get rid of the term ''fair chase'' and just say ''free range or high fence'' to differentiate the two. That would certainly help some because when we use the term ''fair chase'' it denotes that there is then something that is NOT fair, and we all know that is not true, or doesn't have to be anyway. I've hunted behind a fence before for Russian boar and last fall arrowed a Sika doe while my wife arrowed herself a Russian boar. I've treated each of my 3 kids to a boar hunt there, and had a blast each time. Preaching to the choir I know, but I'd like to note here: The elk and the whitetails I encountered in the enclosure were much more ''skitso'' than those you will encounter in the wild. They took ''one very quick look'' and were GONE! I have one more thing to comment on before I close. RLA made the comment ''I will never hunt in a fenced in area but sure do hope that there are plenty that do.'' I have said the exact same thing before and still say it today, as in I do not see myself ever (try not to use the word never) hunting a trophy whitetail buck in a fenced in area, and I assume that is what RLA was saying,i.e. trophy whitetail buck since he is raising them. There were some of you that did not like his statement, accusing him of being non-supportive of the business/industry. To those I ask this: If I worked at John Deere would I be non-supportive of the company because I didn't buy a John Deere tractor and become a farmer? Would I be wrong to work at McDonalds and then not buy food there?...etc,etc etc. I've been a ''free range'' whitetail and turkey guide in Illinois for 23 years and I can tell you with certainty I would not book a guided hunt with another outfitter, am I non-supportive? I could go on and on here. I've hunted the released pheasants, hunted game behind a fence and told you I had a blast, BUT I have no interest in doing my trophy whitetail hunting behind a fence, and shouldn't be chastised for it because I raise deer to sell for financial reasons, nor should RLA. I live in Illinois, as does RLA. I was born and raised here in Illinois, one of the best places on this planet to hunt for trophy whitetails. So my perception, and understandably so, is different from most others that do hunt trophy bucks behind the fence. It doesn't make me wrong or non-supportive. On the other hand, I don't have Russian boars running around here, or pheasants, or sika deer, so I enjoy doing otherwise hunting them, as well as the many other advantages to hunting an enclosure when I go, comradery, seeing lots of targeted game as well as non-targeted game, privacy, safety, etc. Again, ALL of the aforementioned comes down to perspectives and opinions, and a TON of variables influencing both. As Roger said ''There will always be those who will object in some way to some part of any idea''. So, as in most things, we need to come to a middle ground, a balance, that will satisfy the most/majority, and for all the right reasons. God Bless!

For people wanting a positive experience for a first time hunter a high fence ranch is the way to go. They will be safe, they will see deer and most likely be successful. It doesn't have to be a 200+ inch deer, a nice 140" is great.

I agree Gary. Taking a first time hunter into a high fence hunt would accomplish alot. Take a kid hunting - and take him to high fence. Plant some seeds...