You guys think his pics are impressive!! Then you should go see him in person this summer!!! He will blow your mind!!!!
Scott Neeb
Chanlow Farms
The Heart of PA Dutch Country
Scott Neeb
Chanlow Farms
The Heart of PA Dutch Country
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
There were some great deer scored at nadefa like free agent,texas tea,maxin eagle and many more.I dont know why they didnt have xfactor scored by the panel even if was done once before.Then there would be no doubts and the scorers at nadefa would be behind their numbers.The mounts sure looked good to me!!!
Is anyone the least bit concerned of the general publics perception?
Bucks like this that have difficulty holding their heads up or straight due to the size and weight of their antlers.
I hear it from non deer farmers, and read it on other forums that deer farmers are breeding "genetic freaks", "Jurassic deer" which we all know is not giving us a good reputation.
Where do we draw the line? 500",600"? where?
Is there no limit?
Will we aspire for 1000" putting the deer on bed rest to grow it?
At what point does animal well being outweigh the dollar?
I for one am concerned about the direction where headed!
Bucks like this that have difficulty holding their heads up or straight due to the size and weight of their antlers.
I hear it from non deer farmers, and read it on other forums that deer farmers are breeding "genetic freaks", "Jurassic deer" which we all know is not giving us a good reputation.
Where do we draw the line? 500",600"? where?
Is there no limit?
Will we aspire for 1000" putting the deer on bed rest to grow it?
At what point does animal well being outweigh the dollar?
I for one am concerned about the direction where headed!
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
I agree to a point but with the number of bucks we have there are only a handfull that become freaks..
Why is it when someone does somthing better than others.... there are people that can't be happy unless it happened to them?
None of the deer raised are freaks, they all have been bred there has been no genetic manipulation with other genomes to get their result, I will agree that in my oppinion there are some butt ugly deer out there but any truly big deer are the result of selective breeding, money, time, hard work and a little luck
None of the deer raised are freaks, they all have been bred there has been no genetic manipulation with other genomes to get their result, I will agree that in my oppinion there are some butt ugly deer out there but any truly big deer are the result of selective breeding, money, time, hard work and a little luck
CurtisLloyd said:
I hope this wasn't directed at me, as it has nothing to do with being "better" or "unhappy".
It's a very common opinion of the non deer farming world that I as a deer farmer happen to share.
Joined Apr 2009
558 Posts | 0+
Defiance, MO
One reason X Factor probably wasn't scored is because once a rack is officially scored its unethical for it to be scored a second time by different judges. X Factor was scored by a panel of SCI judges to my knowledge. Just out of curiosity what did the judges do for the spread credit on Free Agent?
Joined Apr 2009
1,136 Posts | 0+
Bedford, PA
Predator3 said:
I don't know for sure what they did in Free Agent's case, but there are many deer that are scored based on their replicas or fused bases. I can't remember all of the measurements needed off hand to do a replica, but it's comprised of right G1 to left beam, left G1 to right beam, G1 to G1 and inside spread. This results in a very close replica to the original item.
I know you didn't say this, but I doubt Free Agent's inside spread is what made him the world record... more likely the over 100 points that he had. Plus, he beat X-Factor by a fair amount of inches.
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
I dont see where it would have made a difference to score x-factor again at nadefa.If the first guys were sci and the guys at nadefa were sci?????I know if it was mine and that big it would be done at nadefa in front of god and everybody else.I think that would stand up better in some eyes rather than in a pen somewhere.Plus he was there so what would it hurt.
Joined May 2009
2,369 Posts | 0+
Chillicothe, Missouri
We were told when we had Maxin Eagle and Maxin Alike offically scored at NADeFA that they gave a 22" inside spread to the deer. But just what we were told
Todd M
The Scorers that were used at the NADEFA convention were SCI measurers, asked and/or hired to score antler. I believe that they had some help from NADEFA members as well. Some of those I know are SCI measurers, and some may be master measurers as well. As I also stated, SCI addressed some of the issues associated with scoreing the more complex non-typicals. This, I believe was Reno in Feb, at the SCI convention. I am not sure if X Factor was scored before or after that.
As far as yourself scoring at the conventions, I am sure that NADEFA is looking for volunteers to help at the convnention. If they refuse to let you participate, please post here.
Raising and promoting these big bucks is a lot like a horse race, with a bigger chunk of the prize going to the winner. It is hard to determine a winner of a horse race, if the horses are running at different tracks. Having antler scored by the same panel of judges, helps ensure consistant scoring and helps minimize the bias that a judge may impart on the score.
If someone is confident in the score that they have, why would they not want to have it re-confirmed at the NADEFA event?
Ray
The Scorers that were used at the NADEFA convention were SCI measurers, asked and/or hired to score antler. I believe that they had some help from NADEFA members as well. Some of those I know are SCI measurers, and some may be master measurers as well. As I also stated, SCI addressed some of the issues associated with scoreing the more complex non-typicals. This, I believe was Reno in Feb, at the SCI convention. I am not sure if X Factor was scored before or after that.
As far as yourself scoring at the conventions, I am sure that NADEFA is looking for volunteers to help at the convnention. If they refuse to let you participate, please post here.
Raising and promoting these big bucks is a lot like a horse race, with a bigger chunk of the prize going to the winner. It is hard to determine a winner of a horse race, if the horses are running at different tracks. Having antler scored by the same panel of judges, helps ensure consistant scoring and helps minimize the bias that a judge may impart on the score.
If someone is confident in the score that they have, why would they not want to have it re-confirmed at the NADEFA event?
Ray
My comments were directed at no one and everyone, If certain deer aren't your cup of tea shut up and talk about the ones you like. But....if you know about and are silent about people doing irreparable damage to our industry ...SOY
Joined May 2009
711 Posts | 0+
Fulton, Michigan
Ray,
First let me start by saying “I don’t have a horse in this race”. I don’t own a hair on any of the deer discussed although I would give my eye teeth to own either one of these deer. They are two different “styles” of 500 inch deer. Some people will like one, some will like the other, still others will like neither.
I guess here is the part where some people might get offended. I guess I will start with x Factor. X Factor was not scored on his head as stated by others. When he was tranquilized, his inside spread, mainbeams and first mass measurements were taken by SCI Master Scorers (plural). He was then cut off and the rest was scored. So, X Factors score was a green score as it did not go through the drying period. That is the fault that I see in his score. Other than that, he was scored by SCI Master Scorers at 509.
Free Agent – Looking back through the old posts on here, someone wrote that Mark cut him off before he “damaged his rack further” (maybe not exact words). The inside spread, mainbeams and first Mass measurements were taken by the owners. I am sure they are right, but they weren’t taken by a SCI scorer. Were there points that were repaired? It appeared to me and I may be wrong that the rack that was scored at NADEFA was a replica or at least a repaired original. At the very least the bases were replicated. He was then scored by SCI Master Scorers at 528.
Like I said before, they are both INCREDIBLE DEER. Congratulations to both owners and anyone associated with the deer. They should be proud. The cold hard facts as scored by SCI is that Free Agent is 528 and X Factor is 509. Final. The other cold hard fact is that NEITHER of them is a world record. Unless there is some organization that I don’t know of out there that keeps records on farmed deer that get cut off and are still alive, neither is a “world record”. Call SCI, they only put deer in their “record book” that are shot by hunters. I think the words “world record” are used in place of “The biggest deer ever scored” which is clearly Free Agent. The cold hard facts are that neither is a world record. Maybe I’m wrong and there is a record book out there somewhere that I haven’t heard of, but its not SCI.
Like I said, I don’t have a horse in this race, I know all of the owners involved and I am envious of all, they raised some incredible deer, the two highest SCI scoring deer of all time. First place Free Agent and second place X Factor. Both were scored by SCI Master Scorer panels and both had issues in the gray areas.
First let me start by saying “I don’t have a horse in this race”. I don’t own a hair on any of the deer discussed although I would give my eye teeth to own either one of these deer. They are two different “styles” of 500 inch deer. Some people will like one, some will like the other, still others will like neither.
I guess here is the part where some people might get offended. I guess I will start with x Factor. X Factor was not scored on his head as stated by others. When he was tranquilized, his inside spread, mainbeams and first mass measurements were taken by SCI Master Scorers (plural). He was then cut off and the rest was scored. So, X Factors score was a green score as it did not go through the drying period. That is the fault that I see in his score. Other than that, he was scored by SCI Master Scorers at 509.
Free Agent – Looking back through the old posts on here, someone wrote that Mark cut him off before he “damaged his rack further” (maybe not exact words). The inside spread, mainbeams and first Mass measurements were taken by the owners. I am sure they are right, but they weren’t taken by a SCI scorer. Were there points that were repaired? It appeared to me and I may be wrong that the rack that was scored at NADEFA was a replica or at least a repaired original. At the very least the bases were replicated. He was then scored by SCI Master Scorers at 528.
Like I said before, they are both INCREDIBLE DEER. Congratulations to both owners and anyone associated with the deer. They should be proud. The cold hard facts as scored by SCI is that Free Agent is 528 and X Factor is 509. Final. The other cold hard fact is that NEITHER of them is a world record. Unless there is some organization that I don’t know of out there that keeps records on farmed deer that get cut off and are still alive, neither is a “world record”. Call SCI, they only put deer in their “record book” that are shot by hunters. I think the words “world record” are used in place of “The biggest deer ever scored” which is clearly Free Agent. The cold hard facts are that neither is a world record. Maybe I’m wrong and there is a record book out there somewhere that I haven’t heard of, but its not SCI.
Like I said, I don’t have a horse in this race, I know all of the owners involved and I am envious of all, they raised some incredible deer, the two highest SCI scoring deer of all time. First place Free Agent and second place X Factor. Both were scored by SCI Master Scorer panels and both had issues in the gray areas.
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
Well said todd and that gray area that is there im sure would put both of those awsome bucks back down into the 400's.A post or two back someone says they are freaks and when is it going to be enough.Most say for an animal to be able to grow something that big on their head is unreal.I say to each their own and the ones that say they are freaks are the ones you will never change their mind on high fence hunting.I guess i can only hope to raise a (freak) someday.
ToddM
I was not aqare that their were issues "gray areas" with the score of Free Agent? If so what were these issues?
Maybe someone can comment, but I believe that free agent's rack was removed for possible (or fear of) infection. As you may notice a few of the big bucks are lost every year due to antler infections.
As far as people calling either of these "world record". The term appeared on banners at one or more booths.
AND---- You hit the nail correctly on the head. SCI does not have a catagory for antlers removed or shed from farmed deer. So they will not recognize this type of antler in thier record book. That is why the NADEFA antler scoring event needs to be promoted, accepted and used to its fullest extent.
NADEFA can be the generator and keeper of the World Record Score of Farmed Whitetail Deer, scoring either shed antlers, cut antlers, or intact antler and skull cap.
OH--- Let me quess---- Whitetail Exchange or some subsidiary-- will become the "record book" for this industry?
I will continue to contend that if a producer uses a score for advertising, he should be confident in that score, and should have no problem in having the antlers scored at the NADEFA event.
Removing the bias from the scoring is important. Sort of like comparing a Miss America to the winner of a beauty peagent that was judged by the winners cousins!!!
Ray
I was not aqare that their were issues "gray areas" with the score of Free Agent? If so what were these issues?
Maybe someone can comment, but I believe that free agent's rack was removed for possible (or fear of) infection. As you may notice a few of the big bucks are lost every year due to antler infections.
As far as people calling either of these "world record". The term appeared on banners at one or more booths.
AND---- You hit the nail correctly on the head. SCI does not have a catagory for antlers removed or shed from farmed deer. So they will not recognize this type of antler in thier record book. That is why the NADEFA antler scoring event needs to be promoted, accepted and used to its fullest extent.
NADEFA can be the generator and keeper of the World Record Score of Farmed Whitetail Deer, scoring either shed antlers, cut antlers, or intact antler and skull cap.
OH--- Let me quess---- Whitetail Exchange or some subsidiary-- will become the "record book" for this industry?
I will continue to contend that if a producer uses a score for advertising, he should be confident in that score, and should have no problem in having the antlers scored at the NADEFA event.
Removing the bias from the scoring is important. Sort of like comparing a Miss America to the winner of a beauty peagent that was judged by the winners cousins!!!
Ray
Joined May 2009
711 Posts | 0+
Fulton, Michigan
Ray,
I thought I wrote very clearly and defined the gray areas of both. Apparently I wasn’t, so for your benefit, I will do it again. X factor was scored green and Free Agent was cut off without getting his main beams, inside spread and first mass measurement officially checked by SCI. Not a big deal on either in my opinion, if you need me to explain further I can.
As far as your cynical little statement about Whitetail Exchange keeping the records, that’s not what we do. Maybe you should. You have been involved in deer farming and the industry way longer than I have. Maybe you or your subsidiaries could do it when they have TIME.
I thought I wrote very clearly and defined the gray areas of both. Apparently I wasn’t, so for your benefit, I will do it again. X factor was scored green and Free Agent was cut off without getting his main beams, inside spread and first mass measurement officially checked by SCI. Not a big deal on either in my opinion, if you need me to explain further I can.
As far as your cynical little statement about Whitetail Exchange keeping the records, that’s not what we do. Maybe you should. You have been involved in deer farming and the industry way longer than I have. Maybe you or your subsidiaries could do it when they have TIME.
Joined Apr 2009
558 Posts | 0+
Defiance, MO
I guess regardless of scoring techniques and issues. Both Free Agent and X Factor are the two of the biggest deer I ever seen. Some people will say they don't like the freakish looking deer but I personally love them all. Bone is bone and I can't get enough.
SCI has held scoring classes at the last 3 NADeFA conferences, maybe even more than that. You can take these classes, get a scoring manual and take the test to become a certified scorer. There were more antlers to score this year than ever before and volunteers were welcome, as always. A few NADeFA members who are certified were asked to help score some because of the number of antlers. I would say that the pace of scoring so many sets was so high that you can't expect to get educated while the scoring is on-going but if you first take the class, you could really benefit by watching the scorers at work.
As for having them scored twice, I know that some, if not most official scorers do not like to issue an "official" score if they know that the antlers will be rescored later. I guess that could lead to some going around to scorer after scorer to get the highest score for their buck, then talking about those who scored lower. Believe me, you have to have thick skin to be an official scorer.
As for having them scored twice, I know that some, if not most official scorers do not like to issue an "official" score if they know that the antlers will be rescored later. I guess that could lead to some going around to scorer after scorer to get the highest score for their buck, then talking about those who scored lower. Believe me, you have to have thick skin to be an official scorer.
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