Free Agent - WORLD RECORD @ 2 - Battle Ridge Whitetails

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I think alot of people score the deer in the pens and find they are 20,30 inches off.I kinda think the deer that get that big would all be scored at nadefa there would be no issues on the score.Im sure some spreads get stretched and some mass is off when they are cut but if all racks were scored by the same panel the scores would hold a little more water!
 
I havent gotten on Deer Forums in awhile, its a rainy morning here, I thought I would read some of the posts. One thing I notice is that Russ Bellar, the owner of X-Factor, doesnt waste his time arguing about this crap on here. Im sure he has better things to do. Gotta go Oprah is on.:D
 
It is sort of like in school, you would pass your finished quiz to the student next to you for grading, but all the final exams were scored by the teacher. That teacher didn't have teacher A grade a few and teacher B grade a few others, etc. No the final exams were all scored by the same set of eyes.



As far as antlers being sawed off, how much could that influence the first circumference measurement? Maybe you are thinking of elk, where hard antler removal can result in difficulty or inability in accurately estimating the C1 measurement. Spread is a little more difficult, but photos would help.



This is not solely about x factor, it is about the validation of scores.



I am curious on x factor, it has been stated several times that 3 scorers scored the buck, did they all come up with the exact same score? Was 509 the highest, lowest, or average?



Ray
 
SCI general instructions page 7 paragraph 15.



Most trophies may be measured immediately, with no drying-out period required. However, any trophy that ranks in the overall Top Ten of a record book animal category or top ten animal by method of take category , must be certified by a Master Measurer 60 days or more after the date of kill.



Although these bucks in question would no dout be top 10 since these deer were not hunted or killed I guess there is a little grey area.



SCI does support and does accept animals hunted and killed behind high fence but it would be nice if they would make a category for animals that have been farm riased and not yet hunted.



SCI general instructions page 6 paragrah 9 does state that.



Certain darted animals, that have been tranquilized and revived as part of a conservation program or study by a qovernment or other institution may be accepted at the discretion of teh committee. When so, they will be identified as such in the record book and ranked separately.



So maybe farm raised deer can fit into this categroy, either way SCI or Nadefa need to set up a separate categroy for the deer intill they do anyone claming a world record or a official score is falsely addvertizing.
 
Just a side note. although neither buck in question is really what we breed for on our farm I would love to own them and would not kick them out of the pens for eating crackers.:) And I dout there is anyone in the biz that would.:eek:
 
Ray,



I wouldn't know as I wasnt there and had no stake in it. I agree with you 100% that having the same people (or organization, like SCI who scored both deer) score is the best case scenario. We have seen many times where the SCI scorers have scored a deer significantly lower. We have also seen them score significantly higher too, for example King Kong last year. They scored him 15 inches bigger at NADEFA than the original score. As Curtis pointed out, it is not necessary to wait until NADEFA as there is no drying period with SCI. Is it wrong to want to get a score as soon as possible?
 
So all SCI scorers are equal? Yet you say that there is variation in the scores? If they are scored at the NADEFA event, they would be scored by the same people or panel of people if needed.



If you want to follow the SCI to the letter, I believe that they require new records to be scored at their convention in Reno.



If the importance of scores verified by NADEFA is realized, then the NADEFA summer event could be moved a little later in the year, maybe September or October, and antlers that had been recently removed could be measured by SCI scorers before the breeding season.



I guess I must be the only one that would like accurate numbers.



I am best not making any further comments on this, and just assume that all scores are correct and all deer breeders are honest. Heaven forbid wanting to add a layer of credibility to the deer industry.



Enough anyway, feel free to respond and have the last word ToddM, but I will keep my comments to myself.



Ray
 
Most antler scorer's love to get their hands on antlers...any antlers, having an association with SCI so that their scorers can score (at a set fee) and then submit scores to Nadefa, any potential records should be derered to a panel score.
 
Ray,

You talked me into it, I will take you up on the last word. I didn’t say there was a variation in scores, I said there was a variation in the system. Green antlers, cut antlers etc. This is something that needs to be addressed and determined by SCI or NADEFA to determine how they handle Mass scores, Inside Spread and Beam Length on living animals who have their antlers cut off.



SCI certifies “Master Scorers” I would assume that panels of SCI Master Scorers would be somewhat similar or “equal”. Who is to say which group or panel are any better or worse than the other? Who says which panel was better than the other? I surely wouldn’t think that an organization like SCI would lightly pass out the title of Master Scorer. Just by the name I would assume that there is some criteria or system to become more than a Scorer.



I do agree that a Fall NADEFA gathering just for that purpose would be great. That would take care of a lot. Why make people wait until March to get their antlers officially SCI scored? Some people don’t want to wait that long, I’m sure that is they go elsewhere to get their official score sooner. If you really sit down and think about it, making people wait 4-6 months for this is not the best plan. Letting people know before the Chupp Sale, Midwest Select, Top 30 and NADEFA is a much better solution.



You ask if you are the only one that wants accurate numbers. You are basically saying that X Factors are not accurate and Free Agents are accurate because one was scored at NADEFA and one was not. I don’t buy into that thinking. I think they are both accurate. I think they were both scored by a panel of SCI Master Scorers and that is enough for me. I consider it a fact that Free Agent is 528 and X Factor is 509. Were they scored by the same panels? No. Were they both done in an acceptable manner? To me yes and to you no.



I really hope your day improves. Have a great rest of the day.



Todd
 
Well ToddM



I quess I lied, I have to respond since you said that I am stating that x factors scores are inaccurate. I am not saying that, I am saying that they could be more accurate if the most up to date SCI scorers are used.



In your above post you say





"they were both scored by a panel of SCI Master Scorers "



If x factor was scored by "master scorers" as you state, then I appologize. I just hope that they are able to attend the SCI convnetion for updates. A list of the approximately 400 master scorers is provided at the SCI website. These poeple are master scorers for all SCI book species, they are from accross the USA. I do recognize a few names, an elk breeder friend from Montana, as well as NADEFAs lobbyist and his wife, and a couple of other friends from Texas. Not many deer breeders that I recognize, so maybe these "master scorers" that scored x factor could identify themselves as they may be very beneficial for this industry.



This should be my last word, unless of course you put other words in my mouth



Ray
 
Nope, Im done. Wouldnt want you to back on your word again. LOL



Have a great day.
 
The biggest issue that anyone is going to have, whether your deer is scored by a Master SCI scorer that shows up to your farm, or a Master SCI scorer at NADEFA, is that there is always going to be some variation. Especially when we are talking about animals that are producing more non-typical points. A clean 6x6 buck with no stickers, well that is pretty straight forward. When you add 300" on to that 6x6 frame, it gets messy. I have personally seen an animal that was scored at 407 5/8. I scored it myself 5 times, each time I was patient and meticulous, still I came up with 4 scores that were at least 30" different, only one score was within 4 inches. It would be very unlikely that a Master scorer would come up with exactly the same score twice, especially with an animal over 500”. We need to have a certain level of trust in Master Scorers. I heard from a person whom I trust that was present while X-Factor was being scored that they took the utmost care in making sure the inside spread measurement was as accurate as possible. The measuring was done by someone who was a non-bias party. These are all things I believe Russ did because he wanted to ensure the most accurate score possible for his animal. Todd I could not agree more. Thank you both for your input.



Johnny B
 
With alot of us being new to this whole thing and no doubt have not seen alot of deer of that size to many times are amazed that they can even grow that big.The thing i heard at nadefa from alot was why xfactor was not done at nadefa.Some say he was asked to have him scored and he denied the request.You know how that goes,you hear alot of coments with that many people.If he was scored by sci then i would have to say he is what they say HUGE.There was alot of big racks bein scored and i guess if he was also scored it would make it more legit somehow.Either way huge is huge and both of the above deer are more than most can believe!
 
I contacted Michael Roqueñi from SCI and asked the question about how we can put an official sci score on farm raised deer and put them into there own category. and this is the response I got.







Randy,



Thank you for the email. SCI does not recognize farm raised deer or deer that are still alive as having an SCI official score. I think this question is better suited for NADeFA. SCI does attend the NADeFA Conference and NADeFA uses SCI for their deer competition. In my mind, the better solution would be to have deer farmers use the term NADeFA World Record. Or, NADeFA score as such with the understanding that NADeFA is using SCI’s scoring system to determine the deer’s total score. This would have to be regulated by standards set by NADeFA that SCI would follow when scoring farm raised deer. Because of inside spread and length of main beams, it creates a challenge for SCI when scoring such deer. My recommendation would be to consult with NADeFA. You can even pass on my suggestion or bring me in to the discussing if needed.



Let me know if I can help.

Thank you,

Michael Roqueñi

Safari Club International

Record Book/World Hunting Awards Director






I know that there are a few Nadefa board members that read the forums so I guess I will direct this to you. What would it take to set up a category for farmed raised deer under nadefa? We could use Sci scoring system any SCI Scorer could submit a score on a deer but any deer scoring in the Top Ten would have to be scored at Nadefa conference. We could set a fee on each buck intered say $20 and this could pay for a web site that deer farmers could use to follow all the records. Anyone that would like there deer submited as official would also need to be a member of Nadefa.



Would like some feed back on some of this if nadefa does not want to move forward on this I would be willing to work with SCI myself and set up a indpendent Farm Raised Deer catagory using SCI scoring system.



Remember any one that advertizes a official score wether it is B&C or SCI is false advertizing
 
After reading recent posts regarding Free Agent’s score, I thought, against my better judgment, I would comment.



Due to velvet damage that occurred a couple of days prior, Free Agent’s rack was cut off on August 31, 2010. He had been resting his rack on the fence to (I am assuming) relieve his tired neck. I had to leave for the Ohio auction a couple of days later, so going out of town with a buck about to have antler infection was not an option. He had no broken tines, only a couple of spots with torn velvet. After stripping his velvet (thank goodness we did), newborn maggots were discovered. We made the right call. Beam length, spread, H1 and various other measurements were taken by me and my nephew Jamie so that we could provide the taxidermist with information so that the most accurate set of replicas could be made. After a couple of hours we were in shock that we scored him at 522 inches and we thought we were being tough on him. We told everybody that the score was VERY unofficial. Anyone that knows me can attest that I try to be conservative on my scores. I couldn’t wait to have him scored by a reputable scorer. I thought a deer like him deserved to be, to erase any doubt and to do him justice.



After some health issues of my own, it was put on the back burner until I recovered. The NADeFA conference seemed to be the logical place to have him scored since 3 of the top 7 master scorers would be in attendance. The night before I entered him in the competition, I was approached by another master scorer. He asked if he could score him that night. I was reluctant to have him scored the night before the competition but the suspense was killing me and the scorer assured me that he would not be offended by having him scored the next day by a panel. After 197 days of drying time, his score was 536 4/8 inches. After being entered into the competition the following day, he was panel scored at 528 3/8 inches. Not wanting to be scrutinized by my peers, I took the lower score as his final score. This will be his final 2 year old score forever. From now on, Free Agent will be advertised as the highest scoring whitetail by NADeFA scorers. He cannot be declared official SCI champion nor can other animals not harvested be record book entries. It seems as though the spread credit was the only issue that we had. The first scorer gave him a spread of 29 4/8 inches and the panel gave him 20 4/8 inches. Jamie and I had given him 20 5/8 inches. His beam length measurements were only 1/8 inch less and the H1 measurements were the same as the ones Jamie and I had taken. The 8 7/8 inch spread difference accounted for all but 6/8 inch difference between the first master scorer and the panel score. I think that was pretty remarkable considering all of the abnormal points.



Even though I love Free Agent, I am a lover of all whitetails…typical, non-typical, big old good ones and good old big ones. I strive to have great animal husbandry skills on my farm. So as for me being the mad scientist who doesn’t care for the welfare of my animals and breeding for animals that can’t hold their head up, I would cut Free Agent’s rack in June if I didn’t think he could handle it. I didn’t produce this animal thinking he would flourish the way he has. I believe he was a gift from God for me and the deer industry as a whole and anyone that would produce a deer like him would surely feel blessed. Look how far this industry has progressed in such a short time. Maybe I should shoot my six soon to be yearling sons of Free Agent and their Sudden Impact mothers before any more controversy happens….NOT!



I hope this answers most of the questions my fellow deer farmers have concerning Free Agent’s score. I tried to do the best I could with the situation I was in and I hope that I have not offended anyone. This is my story and that’s all I have to say about that!
 
Thanks for the information Mark! I for one can atest to the fact of Mark being a self described HOARDER...........Eric Pinkston and myself during our visit last fall to Marks farm tried our hardest to get him to price some of his monster bucks to us...........Mark told me he was a "collector"..........Well Mark like I told ya then...........I know know what I want to be when I grow up!





P.S Mark I stand by my comment from our farm visit.......I still think Free Agent is "Beautiful" Congradulations !
 
mark said:
After reading recent posts regarding Free Agent’s score, I thought, against my better judgment, I would comment.



Due to velvet damage that occurred a couple of days prior, Free Agent’s rack was cut off on August 31, 2010. He had been resting his rack on the fence to (I am assuming) relieve his tired neck. I had to leave for the Ohio auction a couple of days later, so going out of town with a buck about to have antler infection was not an option. He had no broken tines, only a couple of spots with torn velvet. After stripping his velvet (thank goodness we did), newborn maggots were discovered. We made the right call. Beam length, spread, H1 and various other measurements were taken by me and my nephew Jamie so that we could provide the taxidermist with information so that the most accurate set of replicas could be made. After a couple of hours we were in shock that we scored him at 522 inches and we thought we were being tough on him. We told everybody that the score was VERY unofficial. Anyone that knows me can attest that I try to be conservative on my scores. I couldn’t wait to have him scored by a reputable scorer. I thought a deer like him deserved to be, to erase any doubt and to do him justice.



After some health issues of my own, it was put on the back burner until I recovered. The NADeFA conference seemed to be the logical place to have him scored since 3 of the top 7 master scorers would be in attendance. The night before I entered him in the competition, I was approached by another master scorer. He asked if he could score him that night. I was reluctant to have him scored the night before the competition but the suspense was killing me and the scorer assured me that he would not be offended by having him scored the next day by a panel. After 197 days of drying time, his score was 536 4/8 inches. After being entered into the competition the following day, he was panel scored at 528 3/8 inches. Not wanting to be scrutinized by my peers, I took the lower score as his final score. This will be his final 2 year old score forever. From now on, Free Agent will be advertised as the highest scoring whitetail by NADeFA scorers. He cannot be declared official SCI champion nor can other animals not harvested be record book entries. It seems as though the spread credit was the only issue that we had. The first scorer gave him a spread of 29 4/8 inches and the panel gave him 20 4/8 inches. Jamie and I had given him 20 5/8 inches. His beam length measurements were only 1/8 inch less and the H1 measurements were the same as the ones Jamie and I had taken. The 8 7/8 inch spread difference accounted for all but 6/8 inch difference between the first master scorer and the panel score. I think that was pretty remarkable considering all of the abnormal points.



Even though I love Free Agent, I am a lover of all whitetails…typical, non-typical, big old good ones and good old big ones. I strive to have great animal husbandry skills on my farm. So as for me being the mad scientist who doesn’t care for the welfare of my animals and breeding for animals that can’t hold their head up, I would cut Free Agent’s rack in June if I didn’t think he could handle it. I didn’t produce this animal thinking he would flourish the way he has. I believe he was a gift from God for me and the deer industry as a whole and anyone that would produce a deer like him would surely feel blessed. Look how far this industry has progressed in such a short time. Maybe I should shoot my six soon to be yearling sons of Free Agent and their Sudden Impact mothers before any more controversy happens….NOT!



I hope this answers most of the questions my fellow deer farmers have concerning Free Agent’s score. I tried to do the best I could with the situation I was in and I hope that I have not offended anyone. This is my story and that’s all I have to say about that!



Very well said Mark. You have NOTHING to be sorry for and NOTHING to hide. Your deer speak for themselves! Congrats again.
 
With success comes criticism. I say screw the critics.

I said it before and I'll say it again. Congrats Mark on one heck of a buck.
 

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