Hunting Market

"talk about the market flooding......there will be so many preserves out there competing with one another and you know thats only going to drive the prices down.....not to mention alot of these preserves that are going up are not qualified (in my book) to be preserves......they are small and will only tarnish our image even worse in the hunting populations eyes."



I completely disagree! More hunting preserves is exactly what we need! Every buck that is out there behind fence is either going to die in a hunting preserve or of disease or of old age. When this flood of shooter bucks backs up enough, desperate people will be selling bucks to neighbors for feed cost to be shot in any pen they have just to get them out the herd. At least a small hunting preserve is better than shooting them in the back yard. Talk about a PR nightmare!

All the extra bucks will die one way or another I vote for making some money on them! Good luck to anyone that is putting up a small hunting preserve!!!

Fars, that is what Dennis is saying alot of these preserves popping up aren't even as big as a back yard. Their are no laws on how big a preserve has to be. To some this is ok but. to many this is unethical and cruel. I personaly have seen preserves no bigger than1/2 of an acre to some hunters this is fine but to others well you know.

If I was a preserve owner, I would LOVE this thread. Calm down guys, there hasn't even been a trigger pulled yet. Listen to your hunting buddies, they are golfing or fishing right now. Let the first big cold front hit and they will start digging the camo out.

I feel like I am watching a rerun of Chicken Little...The Sky is falling, The Sky is falling!!



Things need to change....but we need to look in every direction...ourselves being the most important!! We are cutting our own throats in many ways.

Listen i am not one to run around and say the sky is falling the sky is falling...however, I do know when there are red flags rising and when it is time to become proactive rather than reactive!! We are at the point that we need to be proactive. Fars the point I was trying to make is (as Virgil clarified) these preserves that you are wishing luck to are desperate farmers who can't afford to put in a qualified (200 acres atleast I think) preserve and are fencing in these tiny areas and calling them preserves...... this will be a huge hit to the negative image of High fence hunting. The fact is there could be 1000's of more preserves go in and none of them would be able to book the hunts they need to survivie because we are not drawing in the percentage of hunters that we could be......I want this Industry to thrive just as much or more than anyone here and i am just giving my opinion on where we need to focus our efforts if we want a good healthy customer base in the future......why not focus on capturing a larger percentage of the hunting population is that not who we are in the end selling our deer too?? Why not focus on selling the idea of high fenced hunts to these folks? Why does it not make sense to do a survey to hear what our end market users want? these are all good business sense ideas....why in the world wouldn't we want to focus our attention there?? Like i said, you can call it what you want "sky falling", "panic" or whatever....I call it being proactive and good smart business sense! Got two choices.......sit back and watch.....or....do something about it.........usually the sit back and watch option does not pan out to well when your talking about being successful and driving a business anyhow. just my thoughts!!

I can only draw on my 28 years experiences in the elk and deer industry. What Dennis and others are talking about is what the elk industry did when they were challenged. They harvest their animals at any cost, in any size pen and look where the elk industry is now. Still no market for their product other than slaughter animals with only a few real harvest facilities still in existence. Remember they also had $10,000 semen and $100,000 animals just ten years ago. They also didn't want to get involved with the end market hunters to see what we as preserve owners were doing wrong.



These are red flags being sent to this industry. Why the heck would we not ask our prospective hunter clients why they don't want to use this industry? Any other industry goes to their client base to see what they are doing wrong and we are not the exception. Don't dismiss this as people who are being over excited about the future of this industry. I lived through the elk industry demise and would like to see the deer industry not go through this. This problem of hunters for our product will need to be addressed and fixed or you can just keep your heads in the sand and hope all will work out. THIS INDUSTRY NEEDS TO BE PROACTIVE FOR A CHANGE AND FIGHT FOR A BETTER FUTURE.

I am just saying... For Three years in a row the same thing....

Not too many willing to help...Everybody wanting to take take take...Without putting in work.Not to many businesses work that way.And deer farming is a business.

A product has to be appealing to customers.I feel some have strayed from that path and everyone is following...like the pied piper leading rats to slaughter.Many have gotten of course and hurt the reputation of the business.

We need to give hunters what they want A TRUE HUNT.Not farmed fish in a bucket.

Have you got into it with people against our farms...Listen to what they say...That is what we have to change.Look at things from the outside in.

I have seen some preserves I feel very dissatisfied with...I think to myself, I hope a hunter "on the fence" doesn't go there. It will make him against us For sure...And every person he talks to also!!

We were Typing the same time...LOL I didn't see yours Jack

When we had our hunting preserve set up we supplied the same hunt I would have had when I went into the Bob Marshal for a wild hunt outfitting. We wore camo, called elk and hunted from blinds or did spot and stalk. We supplied a guide for all clients but then our facility was 2000 timbered acres. We had no feeders to hunt over or tame animals. Our animals were brought in at least a year before they were harvested. We had many clients that came year after year before the initiative which put us out of business.



I believe a quality hunt for deer could be on as little as 15 acres of good cover type land. When I bow hunted I would only use 10 acres for my wild hunts. I see no reason why a pen hunt of that size would be a problem for not tame deer. The challenge would be there as it was in the 10 acres when I hunted wild deer if done correctly.



Our problem as I see it is the Northern preserves should never show deer under feeders as it is not the way people up North hunt. Texas does it like that but look at their terrain. It is the only way you would ever get a deer. They should never be petting a deer in their adds and hunters don't give a crap about pedigree. They want it real so keep it real.



Guess what I'm saying is keep it a real hunt for your clients and they will return. Pour corn out or set them up under feeders or shoot a tame buck and just say goodbye for the last time after the hunt cause they won't be back. These are the things done on hunting videos shows that turn off our hunting community in my opinion.

I started raising WT's about the time the demise of elk was going on, and ELK WAS KING IN MN! Where did I get most of the fencing that surrounds my farm? From somebody that lost their *** in the ostrich industry. I don't think that deer taste like ostrich, but I do smell something in the air and it aint chickens. You must be able to adapt in business or you are doomed. Whether you are raising pigs, cattle, turkeys, or deer. We have one advantage. The whitetail deer is the most sought after game animal to hunters in the world. The key word is HUNTERS in that phrase. As soon as it isn't hunting and turns into getting then "Houston, we have a problem".



The state has made us raise our deer in this state so you have 100 % accountability for every animal we own 365 days a year. They also want our preserves to run the same way. When I go out hunting outside the fence I usually have one or two deer I focus on to shoot. I will be very fortunate to see these deer twice a season in shooting range. The larger the preserve the better the aesthetics for the hunter and it is more likely the preserve owner will book hunters for return trips which means success. In this state they make rules that are hard to follow for breeders and impossible for the preserve guys to stay in business. If you don't think this is intentional you would be wrong. The state gets money for free every year and does a rotten job of controlling and managing the herd and hunters alike. They don't even care about how many out of staters they bring in when they have 1/2 million residents buying several licenses each and every year. It is a good gig if you can get it. We shouldn't try to compete with this. We need to specialize on a better hunting experience that is above and beyond what the state offers. Many 200" caliber deer get shot in this state every year when they are yearlings and two year olds. We need to get this point across to the hunting public that a preserve is not a can, but a place where a deer will be given the chance to reach maturity and managed to do so.



I have taken down interior fences in my pens to open them up. Not for an existing deer breeder, but for someone who is a hunter and may want to fence their hunting property. My animals are to show them what good management and genetics can turn into. My goal the past few years is to create more end market assistance and no better way to do this than to show avid hunters what they are missing out on. Many hunters have given up on the state providing them with the quality of hunt they strive for and realize for $27 all they get is a deer that is destined to get hit by a vehicle and rot by the side of the road. We will never be able to compete with the $27 roadkill deer. However we can produce a better product and the state knows it and that is the fear they live with every day. Job security and taking money for very little service or product is their gig.



In the future I will probably have to butcher mature deer that are bucks just like we have to do with the doe herd. I then will have to pay a taxidermist to do a fine job on them before offering them for sale. The only way to avoid this is to not forget about what the hunter wants and to not sell shooter hunts in breeding pens. Maybe NADeFA needs to set up a committee that gives the thumbs up or down for what qualifies as a preserve. There are no easy answers. I plan to do something about this predicament rather than talk or watch and let the state do bad things to me. I will probably be the only deer farmer in my county to be at a Farm Bureau annual meeting for my county tomorrow evening. I can't sell ice to an eskimos, but I can invite some good people over to see my little piece of heaven in my backyard.

Wisconsin has an 80 acre minimum for hunting preserves. A lot depends on the terrain - wide open or heavily wooded lowland for example. We don't have to provide an inventory of deer in our hunting preserves because it would be impossible - if you have does in there they may or may not breed etc. We do have to test whatever we shoot and must test at least 10% of the known population each year. There has been a lot of discussion over the years on hunting preserve standards and it is difficult to get agreement on. I believe NADeFA has discussed this in the past. Drop Shawn an e-mail and he can fill you in.

Shawn called me last week when I was not home. I later left him a message to call me back at his convenience. I agree that location and habitat and not size in acreage should determine the thumbs up or down. If it is very rural then hunting with rifles can be used. In the last ten years there has been a rise in bow and muzzleloader hunters for more hunting opportunities. If the preserve is small, but has the right mix of habitat then single shot hunting could be utilized. The problem with too small of a preserve is the habitat cannot sustain a balanced herd and looks like an over-grazed cattle pasture in a short time. Most hunters want a true hunting experience and releasing ten bucks into a foreign environment and having ten hunters shoot them is not natural to them and has canned written all over it. Something is going to have to be addressed or too many breeders and preserve owners are going to be at odds with each other. I think that deep down all hunters would agree that shooting a buck in a breeder pen is not a hunt, but a killing pen. The P.R. from this could cripple our industry in a very short period of time. Our state is going to have to look across the border to yours so guidelines can be drawn up before the black-market shooting preserves run wild. It would be in everybody's best interest to do so. It is however hard for NADeFA to draw a line in the sand without stirring up a bees nest.

My feelings on what weapons the preserve should be allowed to use is very simple. Whatever the State allows in that county for use of weapons to hunt wild animals in the area should be allowed on the preserve in that county. Fair is fair. That is the stance I took when the State wanted to restrict weapons in our harvest facility.



If I were allowed to let someone shoot a deer in a breeder pen I would call it what it is. It is a on farm slaughter just as they do for cattle in our State. But I'm not able to do that on a deer or elk in Montana but could do that with cattle or buffalo. What a nut world we live in.

I agree 100 % that guidelines need to be set up........when doing so we should take into consideration what the hunters think. that is why a survey is an awesome idea!

This country doesn't need more laws and rules!!

The deer industry is choking on rules and laws as it is. Just take a close look at laws covering transporting of cervidae between states if you think a single simple law to cover hunting preserves is going to work. All we need is for people to use common sense when running a hunting preserve.

On top of which if you work up a bill to control the size and definitions of a hunting preserve and what can legally be a hunting preserve you better be sure you have the law makers you need in office. Because animal rights activists currently control enough politicans to twist your good intentions into a law that bans hunting preserves. So keep in mind what sort of a can of worms you are opening.

After thinking about this issue Fars I totally agree.We all just need to use common sense and as for new laws we do already have enough laws and regulations. We just need to let the hunters know whats out there and let them make their own choice on were and how they want to hunt.

Fars i hear what your saying and agree I hate more laws and rules but with all due respect what is the better option here....letting people book hunts in their 1/4 acre pen that has not a tree in it and call it a preserve hunt (what do you think our Peta freinds would do with that ammunition) or actually put some guidlines together on what a fair an ethical hunter preserve needs to be....it is a double edge sword......but one thing we can not afford to do is sit on our hands and do nothing.

Guy's great debate goin on here........But maybe we should be talkin about this on " the members only" Forum. No sence adding any info to the wackos watchin. just my thoughts......... saw 50+ comments 3,000 + Views!!!!!!!

I was thinking the same thing Wayne....Russell maybe we can have this thread moved to members only......

Dennis, GREAT minds do think alike!!!!!!!