Info needed on Ok-Mo Auction

Roger,



I totally agree with ya! Couldnt have said it any better.

WOW Rog.... Between you and Harry, I have nothing to say. Very well said by you both. I guess I will bring the drinks and chips to the island. See ya there.

If anyone has any concerns or suggestions as to how we can improve our services or better promote the industry please contact me at [email protected] or talk to me at the Ohio sale next week. We are here to serve the industry and are more than willing to hear about your concerns.

All I have to say is...............I TOLD ya all about picken at that SCAB now DIDN'T I!!!



Harry,Roger,Michael..........WELL SAID!!!!!!!!!! I'll bring the lawn chairs out to the island

Bring Ol'Soloman along with you. He'll be the gate keeper...lol

Everybody is frustrated because we all see whats coming and are not quite sure how to stop it. We all know the industry is flooded with new deer farmers and continuing to flood worse everyday....heck just talked with my Dept of AG inspector three days ago when he came to inspect the farm. He told me he had 25 new farms added to his schedule just in the last month and that is only for a portion of the State of PA. There is 25 new farmers and yeah that might sound great to some as they can sell those new farmers deer but that will be 25 new deer farmers looking to unload their shooters in a few years in an already flooded market. Of course their are more Auctions popping up everywhere.....there are so many deer out there people need to sell and not enough auctions to satisfiy the demand.............so now we have more auctions which are going to interfere with each other as there is only so much time in a year. I'ts like the levy's in New Orleans when katrina hit ......it could only flood so much before something has to burst..........we are in the process of the burst.............I know no one wants to hear this stuff and we all want to just look the other way and pretend its not happening but it is.....and we are going to have to deal with it sooner rather than later........I do agree with Harry about the mud slinging and there sure has been some going on in this thread......but it solves NOTHING!! We need to put our heads together and figure out how to get through the situation we are facing. Things need to start happening soon or it's only going to get worse before it gets better.

Roger, I do agree with you on the jealous people out there........hey if your fortunate enough to have a great animal on your farm TALK HIM UP........MARKET the crap out of him..........I don't call that "Hype".....I call it Smart business sense!!

If any thing is ruining the industry it would be to many sales were lots are being bid up. The bidding up of lots is giving to many new guys a false idea of what deer are worth causing to many to get into a industry that does not have a big enough end market to handle all of the deer being raised. A feuw guys will make a buck the rest will loose. We need less sales and more focus on bringing in new hunters or it is all going to crash. With all these deer out there it is just a matter of time before someone starts under cutting everyone elses prices on their hunts then all will have to follow just to stay a float.

Roger, when it comes to hype this has nothing to do with advertising. It is all about bidding up and lying about scores to get new guys who don't know any better and everyone else to falselly buy something. (not referring to you)

How much is a deer really worth? A deer is only worth what a hunter is willing to pay for it. Just ask some of the new guys who spent lots of money at auctions and now have to no sale their lots cause they ain't getting jack crap out of their lots.HYPE is what caused so many to overspend and loose money. The only thing that is going to make things better is for people to realize this and to start to buy and sale at reasonable prices.Don't get cuaght up in the hype and spend more than a deer is worth or is going to make you in the hunting market. To much of anythig can be bad to many auction to many deer to much bull crap and specially to much Hype!!!

It all depunds on what your definition of Hype is..........Virgil in the way that you use the word....I agree.....but i call it false advertising or better yet bad business! But if you have a nice animal on your farm and your talking it up......well I don;t call that hype ....i call it good marketing........smart business. But you are right Virgil, we need to focus on selling our product (whitetails and High Fenced hunts) to a larger percentage of the Hunting population or things are going to get worse..........and I am tired of people coming on here after they read a post like this and call it over reacting or the sky is falling......we can't afford to keep kidding ourselves and looking the other way......we need to join together as an industry and figure out what we need to do to over come our problems!!!!

mrwhiteails said:

Supreme and Buckeye scheduled sales weekend before or after existing sales John simply put the Michigan sale the same weekend as TDA.

Click to expand...

Harry this is the sentence that was brought to my attention.



We do not know why you said it as this was just after the contracts were already signed and locked John into those dates.

John and maybe you were not aware of the TDA at the time of the signing.



This is the whole reason the contract was brought up and your involvement.



You have some very good advice and points that well serve the industry.

You just need to figure out how to make it all work.



I do not advertise the other Auctions as they have their own web sites.



I agree with Dennis of DJD Whitetails



Wayne Pederson

http://www.whitetaildeerfarmer.com/

does anyone know what lot 63 brought?

Thanks Wayne atleast someone admits we have a problem......kind of like an alcoholic...first step is admitting there is a problem..second step is doing something about it........look I am one of the small guys out there that got in three years ago........I am ashamed to even say what I have invested in my farm and my deer because right now I know there is no way in hell I'm getting those dollars back unless we start to focus on our problems in the Industry....and a couple auctions over lapping thier date with one another is FAR......FAR.....FAR from the problems we need to be focused on!!!!!!

There is no stoping it now.The whitetail deer is a great animal and every person that hunts wants to raise a big buck.Heck thats why i got my first deer!!The only way to stop the flooding of the market would be for each state to stop all new deer farmers and i dont see that happening or would it be the right thing to do.The hype per say would be from the so many great deer that people are making and putting a price on.Everybody tries to make the next marketable deer and with so many great bloodlines there is many that are doin just that.The bidding at the auctions show just that,The great deer get bids and the so so deer get lower bids but the farmer has more money invested the last couple years so he has to try and recoup some of the investment. I am not sure what the answer is but im sure glad i didnt break the bank with the deer i bought but i sure will have some great eye candy to enjoy and will luv every minute i spend with these great animals!!!

I glad to see some aknowledge the issue at hand and hopefully will keep focus to the issues at hand ....not making new issues



DD said:

....heck just talked with my Dept of AG inspector three days ago when he came to inspect the farm. He told me he had 25 new farms added to his schedule just in the last month and that is only for a portion of the State of PA.



Part of the reason, actually a big part, the inspector is getting added farms is this is the first so many farms who previously did not have CLO license now have to hence more inspections. Unfortunately in our license fee legislation we overlooked an issue of who is actually gonna have to be licensed. The fee was put in place to keep our CWD program in place without any interruptions. We are the only state who had not had any fees period!



Virgil I cant agree more about the hunting issue it has been hashed around quite abit on here but nobody can get anything done on here. We need the heads of this industry to act on the issue that includes the state associations and most of all NaDEFA.

Once again Virgil you are dwelling on your RUNNING bids and over scoring of deer...Frankly I tired of hearing about these issue....LET IT GO MAN! These 2 issues are not killing the industry its the bickering and not working together thats hurting us all. Hell man the scoring issue cant even be resolved by the current system everyone wants to use.....its so subjective that different Master scorers can't even come up with a common score. My system is simply this the deer LOOKS BIG or it doesn't! As far as your hype issue!

HYPE

A fad. A clever marketing strategy which a product is advertised as the thing everyone must have, to the point where people begin to feel they need to consume it.

1. to stimulate, excite, or agitate



2. to create interest in by flamboyant or dramatic methods; promote or publicize showily



3. to intensify (advertising, promotion, or publicity) by ingenious or questionable claims, methods, etc.



By the definition above its apparent this site is used for so much HYPE!





Wayne I understand you may have not been given the whole situation.



"You have some very good advice and points that well serve the industry.

You just need to figure out how to make it all work."



I only wish I could figure out how to make it all work and fix everything but I know it will take the whole to address the issues at hand. I have tried to get on the NaDEFA board with the thinking I could make difference but have been unsuccessful(maybe its because of my poor spelling and grammar).



For the record Wayne, John was aware of the TDA sale, him and I discussed that and John felt it would not interfere with either sale. Actually this is the first year that Johns and TDA didn't fall on same weekend. More and more folks from the north have started to attend. The past 5 yrs I have attended but decided this year I would pass so that I could be home 1 weekend in the months of Aug. & Sept. San Antonia is a pretty cool city.... Its almost like a vacation going down for the event.



Keep it cool everyone!

Harry,

I respectfully disagree with you on my conversation with the Dept. of Ag inspector. yes you are correct that his schedule may and has increased because of the CLO license you mention above..however, the numbers i was talking about (25 NEW Farmers) were and are purely NEW DEER FARMERS.......nothing to do with the CLO issue......we discussed that as well. These are brand new deer farmers...new fence....new deer ....new farmers........ We can't pretend that our market is not getting flooded with new deer farmers trying to cash in on the high dollars that the whitetails were bringing a couple years ago (or atleast it appeared that they were bringing high dollars..whole nother story there)! Anyhow, this is the issue.....and if you want to dodge around the subject its not going to do a thing to help fix it. I hate the fact that this is happening.......and I know some don't want new possible farmers to read this and tuck their tails and run....but that would be the best thing that could happen for our industry at this point..........I don't know where to begin.....but I know something needs to happen.........Mike you bring up a great point a lot of us are doing this for the love of the animals......trust me i love the whitetails as much and more as any other deer farmer out there.....but my feelings would not be hurt if my farm could start supporting itself soon. I may not be popular or one of the big dogs in the industry......but my investment in this deer farming is real and I am not about to let it be for nothing. Not sure where to start or how.....but i will start making phone calls and doing my part to try and get something started before it is too late........at the very least in the end.....I CAN SAY I TRIED!!!

DD not trying to DODGE around anything ...by no means! I know of the same type conversation with my inspector as well and I saw the list he had of "new deer farmer". 3 on that list I knew and had deer before I ever thought of getting any, fact is I actually went to some of them for information. Apparently somebody in that area must be doing some great promoting of the deer to have that many "NEW FARMs". I stand to be corrected if thats not the case but its the case in my area here.

I dodge no issues..............I have been in the trenches in the state of PA since "WE" began the association in 2002!



This is going way off topic of what the original posting was but am quite confused why this topic of high dollar animals/price fixing etc.. keeps coming up????? Anybody who gets into it needs to stay within ones means if they go jumping in looking for a quick/big return its a huge mistake... doesn't matter if its now or 5yrs ago. Maybe I'm naive or stupid but I don't see all this manipulation going on that you guys seem to be seeing. I try to attend as many sales possible each year so Im assuming all this happening right in front of me and don't even see it. This has been something hashed out over and over and over so many times on here.....as I have stated above this is NOT the issue that is haunting us. We will never succeed at anything if we cant all get along and get on the same page of goals.....that is the issue.



DD I'm not very "popular either or one of the big dogs" ....I just get involved and maybe too much which is why I'm on here dealing with these issues and not on "HYPING" my deer instead. LOL



Peace

Harry regarding my conversation with the inspector and the new deer farms I did not see any list that he had but was told by him that he had these new farms added to his area........if he is lying to me then I stand to be corrected as well......regarding your involvement with the state of PA I have no doubt you have put in your time and have "been in the trenches" fighting for the industry and I never questioned that in any of my responses above. I am thankful for what alot of you guys who got in the business years ago have done for us.

As far as the High dollar animals/price fixing goes.......I personally have no hard solid proof of it happening other than many conversations i have had with several very reputable farmers in the business and this is what has been told to me....again, if i am being lied too i stand to be corrected........I am pretty certian it happens but I am also sure there are many legitamate High dollar deals that happen as well. I agree this is not the issue that is haunting us now.........we have much larger issues that need attention.

You are absolutely right about someone getting in the business for a quick return........these people will be in for a rude awakening if they think this is the case with the deer business.......takes time and hard work just as in any other business to build it to a success.

Harry not that there is anything wrong with being popular or a big dog any and all of those that are in that category have earned their stripes and deserve everything they get.......I think you might be a little more popular than you give yourself credit for . and with that said you are way beyond the point of having to "hype" up any of your deer.....LOL, Hey I lnow we all want to see our Industry succeed and we do need to work together to address the problems that face us.........I am ready to try and do my part.... if I wasn't I would not be expressing my concerns as I have above. I wish nothing but the best for our Industry.

Alright I’ve been sitting back here and reading these conversations for awhile now and I finally think it’s time for me to put in my two cents. The question at hand here is how we solidify our industry for the future while coinciding those efforts into a more reasonable auction schedule. To help get a better idea on how to accomplish this goal we must look at the transformation of our industry and how far it has come over just the past decade. Back in the day when you bought breeding stock you would buy a deer because it had a big father or grandfather or just because it came from a certain farm. No one was worried about scores or pedigrees, in fact many farmers didn’t know what a lot of their stock was from, rather just what “pen” it came from. As far as the shooter market went preserves were more than happy to pick up bucks ranging from 100”-150” and many many bucks less than 100” were shipped along as well.

Now let’s take a look at today’s market where every deer is scrutinized to the max for its pedigree and we’re DNA profiling our entire herds. The shooter market has also moved on to the point that most preserves will not buy bucks under 150” anymore for more than the price of feed. How can you consider yourself in the deer business if you are losing money when selling your animals. I think what really needs to be done is that we need to start dividing up what we consider “breeders” and “hobbyist”. Not everyone with a doe and buck on their farm should be considered a breeding operation and their prices should reflect such. To be quite honest I picked up an auction catalog the other day and from nearly 200 lots I couldn’t find one worth bidding on. I don’t say this to be negative but the biggest problem here is that we are trying to turn the local diner waitress into a princess! If your animals aren’t keeping up with industry standard don’t try and push off these lower class animals on people trying to start a new farm just because they don’t know the difference. Either start sending these does to the hunting ranches, sell them as pets or put them on the dinner table.

We can’t keep flooding the market with these does that are still producing the bucks that we can’t make any money from. I speak from experience here as just 5 years ago our herd was nearly 120 animals and making that many sales was very difficult. Currently we are down to roughly 60 animals and our income is much higher than it was before and our expenses are less too! It plays off the principal idea of quality over quantity because a cheap deer will eat the same amount of food that an expensive one does. I hate to say it, but farms need to start taking hits to eco size their herds and help the industry. I myself sold a doe this year that was the womb sister of a 120”+ yearling as a pet and for the price of a pet. Over the years many of our deer have ended up on the dinner table and I’m not afraid to say it. If you really look at what it costs to raise a deer for the year it’s what $300-$400? If you lowered your herd by five animals you could save roughly $1500-$2000 a year with which you could buy a well bred animal. I hate seeing people go out wanting to start a breeding operation and buy 10-20 of these “preserve does” and call themselves a breeder.

If we focus our efforts to get these new aspiring “breeders” to keep up with the industry and stop stroking our own ego that our animals are better than anyone else’s we can drop back on the number of auctions and the number of animals in them. This can help boost auction prices and it can also give the shooter market a chance to start waiting lists for hunts and thus sustaining prices. In the mean time we need to better promote our industry and hope that the economy starts to turn the corner and allows more people to go out on those dream hunts. There is a reason that certain bloodlines sell for more money than others. If you can’t beat them, join them! I’m sorry it’s after 4am and I’m probably rambling, but this is the only time I get to do this stuff… hopefully someone finds a spec of good information in my blabble to start this discussion in another direction. Night zzzzz…

Dustin,

Your thread above speaks of the same thing we have been talking about a flooded market so i don't know how its going to take the discussion in a different direction. This is the issue at hand and we do need to address it. The problem is we can discuss it on here all we want but nothing ever goes any further.....I am not saying these discussions are not any good but we need to take it to the next level and that would be to take action. So where do we start?

I guess we need to load the rifles and call the local old mcdonalds farm and unload some deer!!!!

Dustin thanks for tellin me that doe i bought from you was just a pet,before we put her in the box!!!I will have fun tryin to get a pettin zoo to take that one!!!!

Dustin, you are right people need to get rid of their deer that don't produce by eating them or shooting them. Buy selling these to others you are just passing on the feed bill. How ever their are a lot of deer out there that do produce good 150 and up shooters. The problem here is there are to many deer good or bad for the shooting end of the industry to handle. I have eaten many of my deer that produce 150 and up shooters at 2 years of age. As a matter of fact last year a small group of deer farmers got together and had a deer roast. We ate one of Low Riders(250+) daughters and she was good eaten. Bottom line is we need more hunters and less breeding stock being sold and until this happens prices will continue to fall.

Harry,you are to busy with to many things evidently and you have missed all the bidding up of lots. It does happen and I personaly have been asked to do it by farmers I didn't even know. Was told if did this that they would give me a good deal on some other deer. If one thinks it does not happen all the time your only fooling your self. I guess you could call this a very good marketing strategy. When someone spends 10,000 or more on a straw of semen out of a buck what are they going to put it in? They are going to put it in one of their best doe. Meanwhile this buck is being put in the best of the best doe. He now becomes known as a producing machine and every one now wants his semen and has to pay good money for it. This is a very good marketing strategy and now the one who originaly bid his prices up no longer has to. Take a nother good buck put it in the same top doe and you will get the same results. This happens weather you are aware or not.

As far as the scoring goes you are right to many veriables. It just stinks to see that their are so many people that are willing to cheat when they really do have a nice deer.This does not go unoticed and hopefully people will start laying out their score sheets to compare with their deers rack. Score does not really matter to me either it is just the princable of being honest.

Also Harry, keep up the good work keeping our borders open and all the other stuff. I comend you and all the others on the PA board for such good work. Maybe some of these other states could use your help getting their borders open. This would really help the industry as a whole if you know what I mean.