Nadefa antler contest

Thanks Pure Deer for those comments. I agree 100% with your observations. I also agree with Roger, why not at least make that one of the measurements we do?



I hesitate to make this post but will anyway. Here are some of my observations from the scoring.



First on New Image:



Since New Image is the only 500 inch buck that shed his velvet naturally and has true points, he is fairly easy to score. It takes a while since he has so many points but there are not a lot of judgment calls and he doesn’t really have any palmation. The Walks scored him at 528 right after he was cut in hard antler. I trust them completely since they have to score so many hunter harvests. Then he was taken out to SCI in Vegas and scored in the training classes for scoring where he was scored consistently by lots of scorers at around 530.



I entered him the first day in Dallas and he sat on the table all day while other deer were scored that had been entered after he was. I’m not sure what was going on there. I went and picked him up at the end of the first day so I could display him in my booth and he hadn’t been scored. One note is that I only had a set of his replicas. I was told that replicas might not count. That’s fine but I thought I would enter him anyway for a score. I never saw a set of rules for the contest. Maybe that’s out there somewhere?

During the second day, I decided to score him myself while I was at my booth. I was VERY strict with the tape rounding down on all eighth inch measurements. Todd Morgan helped me and I came up with 525 and 4/8.

Finally I walked over to see that there was very little activity in the scoring section so I took his sheds back to the scoring area.



He was scored by a very nice man (a doctor) and added up by a very nice lady and the total was 500 3/8. I didn’t get to look at the scoresheet or compare it to the other one I had. When I asked if he was panel scored the man said no, he had done it all and it was the biggest one HE had scored during the conference. When I got back to the booth I noticed that he was missing a point that had been broken during scoring so that may have accounted for a couple inches. I also noticed when I glanced over the ladys shoulder that he had one main beam at 28 inches. New Image has one main beam at 32 4/8 and the other at 30 6/8. So I measured those a few more times when I got back to the booth and got the same measurements I had before. Again, since I don’t have the scoresheet, I’m not sure what happened. However, I sure would like to know.



As far as other bucks I know Todd and I scored Dream Factor and when he was scored by the so called panel they seemed to have missed about 15-20 inches. Again it was a fairly easy buck and I was really confident when I scored him. I will let Todd tell you about that one. I also heard that X-factor’s 3 year old replicas were scored at 388. Again something seems to be wrong.



When scoring these big bucks the solution is fairly easy but takes time. Either panel score them (I didn’t see any of that) or have them scored by 2 or 3 different scorers and if the scores vary, then lay the scoresheets down side by side to discuss the differences. If we are going to use this contest to advertise our scores we would like them to be right.



There are some other things that would need to be changed to make it a "fair" contest but I will save those for another discussion.

Sam, I agree with you......There needs to be more interest in the scoring of the Bucks if we are going to use it for the official scoring system for the Industry......I liked the idea of having training done by NADefa and then coming up with a qualified group to do the official scoring. it does not sound like we as an industry are taking it seriously enough....no wonder a lot of people don't want to have their animals scored.........

Not that I care about what any one buck scores I have a few points of interest;



First, Scott is correct as to say that SCI had the most qualified scorers on hand, they are the "top dogs" for measuring bone anywhere. Did they make mistakes? I would think that could be the case but certainly not intentional.



Second, Anyone complaining about bucks not being scored at the conference, that was not in attendance to support our industry in general, well... we needed your support not just monetarily but in physical presence.



This conference has little to do with an Antler Competition and everything to do with protecting our rights to raise these animals. Good seeing all the attendees.



Third, Many may not know it, but each entry for the competition is $40. My guess is a four person panel score would be about $160. I am not sure that was even an option. Not that $40 is not worth the services provided, but to all that have a problem with bucks not being scored you may consider sponsoring the event in the future and encouraging more farmers to get their animals scored.



Overall it was a great time. I enjoyed seeing everyone there!!

SJames said:

I also agree with Roger, why not at least make that one of the measurements we do?

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Sounds like a plan to have both SCI and the water displacement used. Actually having both scores available would be great advertising and aid in a search for bucks you want to use in your breeding program.

Fact is big is big. People can make little stabs at others about scores all they want. I can see with my own eyes what is big, what has antler characteristics I desire, and what on paper has what I am looking for. That is how I make my choices, not by what someone says the score was.



New Image rocks. So does King of the Mountain. And so do a ton of other bucks that were hanging around the room.

Josh said:

Not that I care about what any one buck scores I have a few points of interest;



First, Scott is correct as to say that SCI had the most qualified scorers on hand, they are the "top dogs" for measuring bone anywhere. Did they make mistakes? I would think that could be the case but certainly not intentional.



Second, Anyone complaining about bucks not being scored at the conference, that was not in attendance to support our industry in general, well... we needed your support not just monetarily but in physical presence.



This conference has little to do with an Antler Competition and everything to do with protecting our rights to raise these animals. Good seeing all the attendees.



Third, Many may not know it, but each entry for the competition is $40. My guess is a four person panel score would be about $160. I am not sure that was even an option. Not that $40 is not worth the services provided, but to all that have a problem with bucks not being scored you may consider sponsoring the event in the future and encouraging more farmers to get their animals scored.



Overall it was a great time. I enjoyed seeing everyone there!!

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Josh you rock! Great post! Awesome seeing everyone there in Dallas.

Very good points Josh!!! Your post made me put some thought into this issue.



First thoughts that come to mind:

*By the way some have stated in the previous posts nobody should state a score on one owns deer unless it was scored at Nadefa! Doesn't matter what it scored 100-600"! But you would have to actually attend and actually maybe get involved to tackle some of the serious issue we have in front of us. But thats not important!!!!!!



*After looking at this a bit differently I do not see anything being discussed about the Industry issues at hand that had been discussed at the conference. I did attend seminar about EHD. Definitely an issue of concern!! Seems to be quite abit time, money and research going into it.

*Quite abit of discussion regarding states- OPEN/CLOSED, status, etc... Seemed to a heated topic and a difference of opinions among st some.



Yes it was a good time and very informative but wasn't cheap to be there! Probably kept many away. So with your money saved by not attending spend it with your state association fundraisers which inturn gives it to Nadefa when needed.

First of all let me say............I hope nobody thinks I was taking stab at anyones scores and or handing out any criticism to ANYONE!



I have always had an appreciation for the BIG score deer and am blown away by these boys every time I get a chance to see one first hand!



I was just always under the assumption that most folks got there buck scored at NADeFA..........



I guess I never really thought about the score being off by that much but after giving it some thought and having had a couple of bucks scored there myself each year and from seeing the long lines and only a small amout of folks doing it I can see were it would be a VERY long and tiring day for them!



I did not make it to Dallas this year but from what I hear I"m not the only one! But I have taken the time to go to a couple of state association fund raisers Iowa and next Sat. to Kansas associations fund raiser and while money is tight for EVERYONE........ I too would incourage folks to go to as many "local" events as possible!



One big trip to NADeFA or several small ones are all a BIG help in funding for our Industry!



But back to the original topic................Like Roger said Big is BIG and you shouldn't need a score sheet to know that!



I simply was asking for my own couriosity from not attending and nothing more!



Sam I have told you before New Image is a BEAST( I was texting and e-mailing Sam as soon as he mentioned he had semen rights!LOL) Big Rig,Ballistic,X Factor and ALL the rest of the 400"- 600" plus giants are unbelieveable to me!!!



I know what traits I want to use in my herd.........I already have X Factor yearlings on the ground at my farm and will be using more of these type deer in my program in the future!

Wayne, your safe the comments were all directed towards me.......first off I wasn't able to attend the NADefa conference this year and would have much rather been there than where I was during the event!! Not everyone's schedule allows them to go to these events.....you make the ones you can......I am a member of NADefa and appreciate everything they do for our industry......so just because someone was not able to attend does not mean they do not support them. I am not going to get into a big finger pointing match over this. It stinks that you can't have a simple disscussion on here anymore without being accused of having some type of malicious alterior motive!! I am not saying any of these big bucks scores are being inflated.....I congratulate all the farms that have one in their pen.......yeah big is big and you can see it with your own eyes......but that don't fly with the guy writing a check at the hunting preserve who just shot his buck and is getting ready to strike a check.....he wants to know the score of the animal....And so does the preserve owner.....and that is what our industry is based on.........like it or not....ot is about the inches on their heads......so why wouldn't a deer farmer getting ready to strike a check for semen want to know the true score or the animal they are buying from?.........anyhow, this is my opinion and nothing more nothing less.......again, it really does stink you can't discuss things on here anymore without jabs having to be made........I have know issues with anyone in this industry and simply state my opinion from time to time.......but the way things fly anymore it might be just best to sit back and read.....

Must be feeling guilty for something??!! I for one was not directing toward anyone.

I thought the thread was staying pretty positive for a change but now gotten negy. Come on dd don't take your ball and go home!!!!

I believe that there is a scoring system from another hunting association that uses water displacement as part of the scoring formula. It is out of Texas.



I think that this thread is trying to be positive, but I must disagree with the water displacement.



Water displacement is related to mass. Mass is related with weight. Water displacement and/or weight are not as directly related to score.



Mass is very impressive, BUT, we can go too far with it. In this industry we have seen a couple of bucks with antlers so heavy that they are a detriment to the buck. Do we want more of this? This is exactly what critics of our industry are attacking us for. It can be justified in that we can breed to the extremes to make faster gentic improvement, but only to a point. Now if we had a velvet antler industry like the elk industry has, then that may be a different story, but there is not any interest in antler from whitetail deer in the velvet antler trade.



The SCI system may not be perfect, and we may not agree with some of the scores or scoreers, but this is the best that we have and we should support it.



We are producing a product for our clients. If that client wants his product scored then it will be in the SCI system. If the client takes the trophy to SCI for scoring, it will be scored by the same scorers that were used at NADEFA.



The bigger problem with SCI is that anyone can go through their class and become a measurer. They can measure a few more trophies and attend a certification course in Vegas/Reno and become a master measurer.



Some of the measurers do a better godd than others. Some may bend the system and award unjustied inches. Some may bend to pressure of a producer, and "can't you take that tine a little further down?". At NADEFA, the biases and pressures are mostly removed, and hopefully a more accurate score is obtained.



Whether it is lack training or other factors, some of these scores can be way off. I also had heard (as mentioned earlier in this thread) about a set of antlers was scored and that it was considerably different from the published score.



The people that had antlers at the NADEFA competition should be acknowledged for there openness and support, with time more producers will use the system and we can make more accurate informed decisions reguarding our genetic direction.



Ray Favero

Its funny everyone thats talking either entered their bucks or had no bucks big enough to enter. How about the guys that did not enter their big bucks saying something. People want to know why and it would be much better to hear it first hand from those who own these big bucks.

Pure deer.....I can assure you I have no quilt feelings about anything....if i did I would tell you what they were.....I said nothing negy in my post.....just stated facts.....for some reason there were things mentioned in previous posts stating that if you were not at NADefa you didn't care about the industry and you did not support it......that is where things started getting negy....anyhow, pure deer I'm here to stay....not going anywhere......just given an opinion which is what this forum is all about.

drfavero said:

I believe that there is a scoring system from another hunting association that uses water displacement as part of the scoring formula. It is out of Texas.



I think that this thread is trying to be positive, but I must disagree with the water displacement.



Water displacement is related to mass. Mass is related with weight. Water displacement and/or weight are not as directly related to score.



Mass is very impressive, BUT, we can go too far with it. In this industry we have seen a couple of bucks with antlers so heavy that they are a detriment to the buck. Do we want more of this? This is exactly what critics of our industry are attacking us for. It can be justified in that we can breed to the extremes to make faster gentic improvement, but only to a point. Now if we had a velvet antler industry like the elk industry has, then that may be a different story, but there is not any interest in antler from whitetail deer in the velvet antler trade.



The SCI system may not be perfect, and we may not agree with some of the scores or scoreers, but this is the best that we have and we should support it.



We are producing a product for our clients. If that client wants his product scored then it will be in the SCI system. If the client takes the trophy to SCI for scoring, it will be scored by the same scorers that were used at NADEFA.



The bigger problem with SCI is that anyone can go through their class and become a measurer. They can measure a few more trophies and attend a certification course in Vegas/Reno and become a master measurer.



Some of the measurers do a better godd than others. Some may bend the system and award unjustied inches. Some may bend to pressure of a producer, and "can't you take that tine a little further down?". At NADEFA, the biases and pressures are mostly removed, and hopefully a more accurate score is obtained.



Whether it is lack training or other factors, some of these scores can be way off. I also had heard (as mentioned earlier in this thread) about a set of antlers was scored and that it was considerably different from the published score.



The people that had antlers at the NADEFA competition should be acknowledged for there openness and support, with time more producers will use the system and we can make more accurate informed decisions reguarding our genetic direction.



Ray Favero

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Great points Ray. Water displacement really wouldn't mean much for me as I'm not trying to raise heavy mass. I want as much frame and width as possible with an incredible look. I can tell what animals have that without needing a score. I actually cant remember the scores for most of our AI sires, but I can tell you their mainframe, tine length and inside spread, because that's what we are trying to produce.

I'm all for having a buck scored at Nadefa. We were unable to make it this year because of our move. We had Texas Tea scored there last year as a 2 year old and didn't have any issues with the score. In fact, we estimated him at 290" and he was scored there at 312". I'd much rather be low in my estimate than high.

At the end of the day, there's no perfect system, but an "unbiased" nadefa score is about as close as we have for right now.

Water displacement has nothing to do with mass/weight....but it's a measurement of volume. The advantage to water displacement is there isn't any judgement calls. I think it would be interesting to see BOTH measurements together.

dd gets some thicker skin!!!! NOBODY was attacking you!!! Most of my post was in fun. GEEEEZZZZZZ!!



I believe you read way more into most of the posts never said you don't support Nadefa!

In fact I believe I Certainly understood why many did not attend! COST!!!!! Chill out!





Dont know much about water displacement scoring! Wouldn't palmated bucks get higher scores????

I just hope i get the pleasure of paying somebody $40.00 to score one of my buck's. With the semen prices and fawns or bred doe's prices out of a buck worthy of getting scored at nadefa!! I would have to guess it would be well worth the trade off!!!

I dont see how water displacement can be related to score, mass or volume of antler yes. I would think that water volume would take away from a lot of the big buck's that have that great whitetail look and add a lot to the buck's with glob's and so on. I like the b&c system, wouldnt know how to tape one any other way. Any way an inch in an inch they either have it or they dont. I would think it would be quite simple to get a score that is right on the money.

Without a doubt, the water score would show more mass than any other attribute of a bucks rack that would not otherwise show up on paper. You only get 4 mass measurements on each side otherwise...plus you'd get the fat points that can't be scored cause the base is longer than the length...you'd get all points under an inch...the thickness of all tines would show up, etc. On any given buck with good mass, there is always some ''wow'' that doesn't get to show up on paper.

I certainly don't think it would be a good idea to ever have just the water score. In fact it would be a terrible idea. But I think the combination of the two, water and tape measure, is an absolute awesome idea.

It's a way, actually the only way, that a buck will get total credit for everything he grew...and why shouldn't he??!!

ikoff said:

Water displacement has nothing to do with mass/weight....but it's a measurement of volume. The advantage to water displacement is there isn't any judgement calls. I think it would be interesting to see BOTH measurements together.

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So with this system what do you have a number for volume, not a score for inch's. So you would say my buck is 3 1/2 quart's not 250 inch ?

ikoff said:

Water displacement has nothing to do with mass/weight....but it's a measurement of volume. The advantage to water displacement is there isn't any judgement calls. I think it would be interesting to see BOTH measurements together.

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I understand your point for total volume. And I don't want to totally discount any benefit of using this method. But for me personally and what I'm breeding for, it really has no added benefit.

You can have buck A that displaces more water than buck B, but I'm breeding for antler characteristics and passdown traits, not water displacement. Buck A might have 24" beams, 6" tines, and be 20" inside and "score" better using this system than a buck with 30+" beams, 12+" tines and 30+" inside spread - which is exactly what I'm breeding for.

Again, I'm not dogging the system, just saying that I can look at an animal and tell you if I'm going to ever use him in my program without knowing the score. To each their own I guess.