Richie,think about the new guys in Alabama wanting in. With open borders they could get into the business with way better genetics for the same price as they are paying for way lesser genetics.After all this is supposed to be a free country with equal oppertunity. I do see were you are coming from and I feel for ya but that does not make it right. To be united we must all come together with the same rules and regulations.
Joined May 2009
1,166 Posts | 0+
Tuscaloosa, Alabama
The northern breeders also need to realize how much money Alabama spends on semen every year. Last year alone I know there were over 1500 straws of semen used. Would the north like to lose that amount is semen sales? I'll also bet you that between us and Texas we buy more semen than all of the north combined!! You can't argue the facts. Closed states invest tens of millions of dollars per year in the north. Why would northern breeders not want that money per year?? The only people that would want borders opened in our state are the ones that have invested little to no money in their deer. That way they could get in cheap. Our does here are good pedigree does but at the recent auctions up north they would being $500. We get 4000. The north has enough 500 does. Why do you want more? Do you think that the breeders who invested time and money to get to where they are now will take that loss and reinvest? NO!! The north is getting the money now with semen sales from us. I don't think you can get it both ways. Also I am not aware of ANY deer that Alabama has exported ever. We don't have too. It's supply and demand. Period. And as far as what people say about Will thinking of himself, that's fine. Because we all do. If any of you can say that your not thinking of yourself when you buy and sell, I'll call you a liar to your face. It's a business. You have to take care or your investment. Do you think any of us would invest our money knowing that you would never make it back? Nope. We all think of Ourselves and making money. You have to. Gas isn't free, living isn't free. Nothing is. You have to make a living to survive ..But if there are some of you who don't think of yourself then I suggest you donate all of your profits. Think of other people. They would love to have it.
Joined May 2009
1,166 Posts | 0+
Tuscaloosa, Alabama
One more point. I don't understand why everytime this subject comes up everyone is quick to jump on alabama. Alabama hasn't said that we are in trouble or in need of help right now. If everyone would think of helping the industry and making money, then let's help with all the states that dont allow any deer farming or high fences. Wouldn't you like to see them at least be able to have a breeder pen and high fence. Even if their borders were closed , how much money could they spend on semen and other products? It would be millions. So let's help get the other states going. I know that they would appreciate it as they don't get to see good deer
Richard, If your borders are closed, and you can't bring deer in, can you ship deer out of state? Gary
Virgil, Randy, Chad, Fred, and Everyone else
Appreciate the discussion and the comments. Let me first give all of you history on Dream Ranch and what we do. We have a deer breeding facility and 1400 acre hunting preserve in Alabama. We have a 50 acre breeding farm in Pennsylvania. We also own or have interest in deer in Ohio with Steven Schrock, In Oklahoma with James Hail, in Texas with Jordan Smrekar, in Wisconsin with Roger Petroski. So we own deer in a lot of states and all of them have a little different regulations and laws pertaining to importation.
As a Nadefa board member I represent all states and our industry as a whole. I don’t believe in taking gambles to potentially jeopardize the industry in a state. If we gamble and lose, then what, we lose another state that is involved in the industry. Timing is everything in politics and the timing is wrong in Alabama. I have said this once and I will say it again; I would rather open up new states with closed borders or semi-closed borders than not open them at all.
Sure ideally every state would have free trade and allow deer farming in the U.S., and it wouldn’t affect my business at all. But let’s get back to reality here!!! In Texas, Alabama, West Virginia, Michigan you can’t bring whitetail deer into the state. In Indiana you can’t bring deer into the state if you’re from a CWD state. You can’t raise Whitetails or it is very restricted to the point there is no industry in Mississippi, Georgia, Tennessee, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, Massachusetts, Vermont, Rhode Island, Maine, Nebraska, South Dakota, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Nevada, Washington, Hawaii, Alaska, Oregon.
My goal is to open new states to deer farming. There is strength in numbers, and we need to expand the industry into new states, no matter if the borders are open or not. Ideally it would help the new state to get the genetics advantage of being able to bring deer in, however if the state says no to open borders, then lets open up the deer industry with closed borders or partially closed borders. The indirect economic impact is huge, and that is what we need to push, it will create jobs. If the borders are open great, if not that is fine also, then they can buy semen, and fence, out of state guys can buy deer and keep them on your farm and we have now have a new state in the industry to help us fight the antis (Peta and Humane Society).
The history on Alabama is it’s never been legal to bring whitetails into the state. Alabama has always had closed borders along with its neighboring states. When CWD came out, they put a moratorium on deer breeders in our state, basically eliminating the deer industry. A group of us put together legislation to get the moratorium lifted and now we are working to continue to improve our industry in the state. We are 15-20 yrs behind the rest of the states on regs and laws. However we are continuing to work on the laws and regs in our state.
As far as me making money off the borders being shut, that is just not true, and has no logic. I sell deer for more money in other states than I do in Alabama, which is a fact. I could buy shooters at a lot more reasonable price for our hunting preserve. (right now I pay 70% ). So that argument is bogus.
But I will not do is jeopardize the whole industry and everything we have worked hard for just to try and open the borders at the wrong time. There are a lot of farmers, ranches, and good people that have a lot of money invested for me to gamble with legislation that could put the entire state out of business, and that is foolish. I will not do it, and if that offends you, then vote for someone else. I am for the deer industry in every state: you just have to decide if you’re for the whole industry or just the fortunate people from states with more fortunate regulations and laws.
Appreciate the discussion and the comments. Let me first give all of you history on Dream Ranch and what we do. We have a deer breeding facility and 1400 acre hunting preserve in Alabama. We have a 50 acre breeding farm in Pennsylvania. We also own or have interest in deer in Ohio with Steven Schrock, In Oklahoma with James Hail, in Texas with Jordan Smrekar, in Wisconsin with Roger Petroski. So we own deer in a lot of states and all of them have a little different regulations and laws pertaining to importation.
As a Nadefa board member I represent all states and our industry as a whole. I don’t believe in taking gambles to potentially jeopardize the industry in a state. If we gamble and lose, then what, we lose another state that is involved in the industry. Timing is everything in politics and the timing is wrong in Alabama. I have said this once and I will say it again; I would rather open up new states with closed borders or semi-closed borders than not open them at all.
Sure ideally every state would have free trade and allow deer farming in the U.S., and it wouldn’t affect my business at all. But let’s get back to reality here!!! In Texas, Alabama, West Virginia, Michigan you can’t bring whitetail deer into the state. In Indiana you can’t bring deer into the state if you’re from a CWD state. You can’t raise Whitetails or it is very restricted to the point there is no industry in Mississippi, Georgia, Tennessee, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, Massachusetts, Vermont, Rhode Island, Maine, Nebraska, South Dakota, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Nevada, Washington, Hawaii, Alaska, Oregon.
My goal is to open new states to deer farming. There is strength in numbers, and we need to expand the industry into new states, no matter if the borders are open or not. Ideally it would help the new state to get the genetics advantage of being able to bring deer in, however if the state says no to open borders, then lets open up the deer industry with closed borders or partially closed borders. The indirect economic impact is huge, and that is what we need to push, it will create jobs. If the borders are open great, if not that is fine also, then they can buy semen, and fence, out of state guys can buy deer and keep them on your farm and we have now have a new state in the industry to help us fight the antis (Peta and Humane Society).
The history on Alabama is it’s never been legal to bring whitetails into the state. Alabama has always had closed borders along with its neighboring states. When CWD came out, they put a moratorium on deer breeders in our state, basically eliminating the deer industry. A group of us put together legislation to get the moratorium lifted and now we are working to continue to improve our industry in the state. We are 15-20 yrs behind the rest of the states on regs and laws. However we are continuing to work on the laws and regs in our state.
As far as me making money off the borders being shut, that is just not true, and has no logic. I sell deer for more money in other states than I do in Alabama, which is a fact. I could buy shooters at a lot more reasonable price for our hunting preserve. (right now I pay 70% ). So that argument is bogus.
But I will not do is jeopardize the whole industry and everything we have worked hard for just to try and open the borders at the wrong time. There are a lot of farmers, ranches, and good people that have a lot of money invested for me to gamble with legislation that could put the entire state out of business, and that is foolish. I will not do it, and if that offends you, then vote for someone else. I am for the deer industry in every state: you just have to decide if you’re for the whole industry or just the fortunate people from states with more fortunate regulations and laws.
Will, I respect all that you do but I do not understand why opening your borders will shut the state of Alabama down. If they were to open the borders and something was to happen they would simpley shut the borders again. All states with open borders take this same risk I think but maybe I'm wrong.
Like I said I do respect all the work you do for the industry keep it up. Not trying to give you a hard time just trying to understand your thinking.
Like I said I do respect all the work you do for the industry keep it up. Not trying to give you a hard time just trying to understand your thinking.
If a state wants their boarders closed it should be closed for everything that means no deer or semen in or out.Then see if that state can live on the genetics they have for a few years and then they would be done.Aclosed state has the best of both worlds when they can bring in semen and improve their blood and then have control of prices any new farmer will have to pay. Open them all for the good of all not just a few states.
I am new to deer farming and i am the type that just speaks my mind but what I have been reading here for the last few days (in my opinion ) is not good for any one with all the fighting. Lets look at this as a business stand point but not with deer. lets say Virgil owns GM and he is doing good business here in America building cars hes able to get parts from China since they make them for less but all his cars are put together and sold here a few yrs down the road our congress opens up our boarders to free trade will say China Pushes for it. Now Japan starts flooding our market with Honda's now GM is really hurting so he gets a tax payer hand out called a stimulus plan. Now china fought to open the boarder and now they are not making money since the market is flooded with Honda's and the people are buying them. now would it have not been better to keep the boarder closed and enjoyed your profits from selling the parts. The moral of the story is Remember when you buy the product you no longer need the parts
Just my 2 cents maybe I am looking at this all wrong since I am new and I do understand both points of view. I am just looking at this how our country has suffered from free trade when the boarders got opened.
Just my 2 cents maybe I am looking at this all wrong since I am new and I do understand both points of view. I am just looking at this how our country has suffered from free trade when the boarders got opened.
Brian, not trying to fight just trying to understand why some would not want borders closed other than for selfish gains. I thought we all lived in the same country were we should all have free trade amongst all with in the borders of are country. By opening the borders the small guys,new guys, and the preserve owners in our closed states are the ones who will benifit. As of now if your borders are closed you are at the mercy of the breeders with in that state and they can set their own rates as they are doing.This is not the fair market value people are being taken advantage of. This is not right in a free country if at all possible these borders should be opened to make it fair for all.
Will seems to be a good guy and I'm sure he will try his hardest to make it right when the time is right. He knows better about what is going on behind the seens in his state.
Will seems to be a good guy and I'm sure he will try his hardest to make it right when the time is right. He knows better about what is going on behind the seens in his state.
Virgil
Im sorry I was not pointing you out for fighting I just used for a example of a owner I do understand your point very much. like I said I am new and trying to learn
Im sorry I was not pointing you out for fighting I just used for a example of a owner I do understand your point very much. like I said I am new and trying to learn
Joined Apr 2009
1,428 Posts | 0+
Northeast Wisconsin
Most states have used the CWD tactic to close their borders. Since most farms are 6, 7and 8 years monitored now that really doesn't hold water. Free trade is free trade. This is the US and we are one country - all borders should be open. Those people in states where it is now closed will still buy semen, but now will buy deer as well. To create artificial markets is not the answer -
Our new governor has declared Wisconsin open for business - all states need to do the same.
Our new governor has declared Wisconsin open for business - all states need to do the same.
Virgirl and Wild Rivers i totally agree with you. I'm sure all the guys on here are good guys they just want whats best for them and i can't blame them but for a state and a industry all borders should be open. Nobody likes competition when they have been naming their price for years.
Thats what i mean the best of both worlds.They can buy semen to upgrade their genitics and sell higher doller to a new farmer and they have to pay or get no deer.Closed borders should mean closed,no deer,semen,nothing related to deer.Then they would run out of bloodlines sooner or later and everyone would have the same deer.Sounds like fun huh.All should be open for good of everybody..
I have imported cattle for my beef and dairy farm from 3 foreign countries, Canada, England, and Belgium. I was the last farm to import cattle to the U.S. in the spring of 1996. In the summer of 1996 Belgium had a BSE [mad cow] outbreak. The USDA immediately closed the borders for all livestock including semen and embryos. They felt there was a high degree of risk of a prion transfer in both semen and embryos. CWD is part of the group of TSE diseases. My point is if these states are worried about CWD transfer in the live deer movement, then why are they allowing semen moving between state lines? If this is a health issue there regulations don't make sense to me. I had a lot of correspondence with some of the best BSE experts in Europe over the years. I have an article that was published back in 2002. It quotes a Doctor who won the 1997 Nobel Prize in Medicine for his discovery of prions. One of the statements in the article says " In spite of the USDA's categorical denials, it's a scientific fact that one in a million cows naturally develops BSE." Since BSE and CWD are disease "cousins", this kind of shoots down the DNR's transmission theories.
Has anyone considered what would happen when EHD or Blutongue hits the state and wipes out 50% or better how long will it take you to rebound? How will it affect the preserves that are needed to buy up your shooters? Florida was working on this but unfortuntely there are more pros than cons to keeping the borders open. I do agree it can hurt the farmer who has worked hard to breed good genetics through AI but on the other hand somepeople see the value of deer that prosper in there environment. any one can buy a deer and any one can loose one. I say free trade. dont look at the southern deer as a bad thing. look at it as a another option some people dont want to play the vet everyday to keep them alive (not all just saying)
Joined Apr 2009
1,428 Posts | 0+
Northeast Wisconsin
It doesn't matter where you live, most deer farmers have worked hard to improve their genetics and choose good breeding crosses. Most farmers are improving their genetics through AI as the most cost effective way to do it. So open borders or not, I don't see any difference in this. An artificial market isn't real and if it can't survive free trade then something is wrong to begin with. Let the market dictate - not Dept. of Agr. or Natural Resources or Wildlife. That is the free capitalist government we are supposed to live under.
Joined Apr 2009
1,136 Posts | 0+
Bedford, PA
From what I know, Will has done more for our industry than most can possibly hope to do. He has partnered with and bought deer from a wide group of deer farmers across the country, and I believe his intentions are pure. He's not standing on the sidelines saying this and that should be done... he's part of the movement to better our industry for everyone involved.
For what it's worth Will, you have my vote!
Mike
For what it's worth Will, you have my vote!
Mike
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
I with ya mike.He Has done alot and it should be noted.I know he has made alot of money in deer and he has spent a huge amount also.I think he is for the betterment of the deer world.He wants to open new states and that is great.I am for the opening of all borders for the good of all.I also am kinda on the fence that if the border is closed it should be closed to everything.
I have already cast my vote, my ballet has already been sent and I did so before this thread was started. And really have not seen anything to change my mind other wise.
From what I gather form all this is what Will is trying to say is and this is just my interpretation here but that he is not against opening all boarders and he is not against eventually opening up Alabama but the time must be right. I do not know Will nor have I ever met him this is just my take on what he has written. But he is looking at using the hammer and pry bar method of tarring down these walls we call state boarders, not a wrecking ball! He is looking at opening up more business in states that currently have no sales. The States, which at this time have no market for our deer farming products. Currently we have a semen market in Alabama. They are started and on the right track. I see it as they are contributing. Free trade yes im for it! Should Alabama be open, Yes when the time is right as should all states. But what I see being compared here is governments and trade sanctions. When the wall was removed separating East Germany and West the time was right. Ten Years earlier and Berlin’s economy would have never been able to support the transition. So how I see it here is. Open up the market but do not do so in a manner that can jeopardize our industry. If a lean on the more careful side and a slow and easy approach is needed to make it works then do it, I have time.
If you ever get the chance to sit in on a organization meeting either at the state lever or national level. I encourage you all to do so you will be blown away by the work load that is on their plates and you then will understand why they ask so often for member participation and support. Thank you everyone past and present for donating your time and serving in these seats to help this industry.
From what I gather form all this is what Will is trying to say is and this is just my interpretation here but that he is not against opening all boarders and he is not against eventually opening up Alabama but the time must be right. I do not know Will nor have I ever met him this is just my take on what he has written. But he is looking at using the hammer and pry bar method of tarring down these walls we call state boarders, not a wrecking ball! He is looking at opening up more business in states that currently have no sales. The States, which at this time have no market for our deer farming products. Currently we have a semen market in Alabama. They are started and on the right track. I see it as they are contributing. Free trade yes im for it! Should Alabama be open, Yes when the time is right as should all states. But what I see being compared here is governments and trade sanctions. When the wall was removed separating East Germany and West the time was right. Ten Years earlier and Berlin’s economy would have never been able to support the transition. So how I see it here is. Open up the market but do not do so in a manner that can jeopardize our industry. If a lean on the more careful side and a slow and easy approach is needed to make it works then do it, I have time.
If you ever get the chance to sit in on a organization meeting either at the state lever or national level. I encourage you all to do so you will be blown away by the work load that is on their plates and you then will understand why they ask so often for member participation and support. Thank you everyone past and present for donating your time and serving in these seats to help this industry.
