Angie's Question should have been who owns the deer. Before everyone throws a guy under the bus you should hear the other side of the story. There are always two sides to every story. Angies side makes me look like a real *** hole, and if it's true I am. This is Dave Reed from Turkeyhill Whitetails explanning the story with my side and emails to support it. I sold a Grizzly button buck at an auction in Aug. I couldn't attend the sale and didn't know who purchased it. At the Pa sale Mike introduced himself to me as the person that purchased my buck fawn at the earlier auction everything is great. At that time I told Mike we had a short window to get the buck, because my 3 yr. testing was coming up, and I was going to test in mid oct. That if he'd like, it would be easiest to pick the fawn up at the end of Oct. after testing. Mike and I agreed that would work great for both of us. At this time I told Mike to send me his farm information when he got home, and the date he would be coming for the fawn so I could get the permit started. Here's where communication went bad because now Angie is saying they told me to call them. Angie was not even in the conversation at this point. I didn't here from Mike until early Nov. when he asked if I want to keep my buck fawn. I emailed him that I had to many deer, and I was still tring to reduce hurd by 35% more due to feeding costs. At that time I asked Mike for the balance on the fawn, and that I would keep the fawn as long as he needed, but I didn't want to be responsible for the fawn, and we could set up some type of boarding fee's if he couldn't get the deer. Which I thought was fine, because I have payed them in the past when I couldn't pick deer up when agreed upone. Didn't hear from mike about any arrangments or payment, it was dropped. At this time I just felt he didn't want the deer and was stalling. Then he has buck fawn in the Buckeyes auction to sell, but angie said they don't own it. I'm a little confused if they don't own it how are they selling it. I was always told when I got into this business 9 years ago, that you should pick your deer up within 30 days of the auction or pay for it and take responsability for the deer. I'm not saying this is correct, but that is how I've tried to run my business from day one. I know it doesn't always happen things come up, and that is fine. Then I hear from Mike early Dec. with his information I needed and to let him know he would come down as soon as the permits would come in. I contacted Mike and let him know my vet. inspected the deer, and to let me know when he was coming, because the permit was only good for 30 days and that he would be responsable for the next permit if he didn't pick up the fawn. Mike called me on my cell phone to tell me he could pick the deer up on one day I wasn't available. During that call I told Mike thats was great, but my wife was with me and told me I promised my daughter I wouldn't miss her cheerleading competition out of town that day. I missed her other two competitions because of deer auctions. Right then I told Mike that it wouldn't work for that day, but I could the day before, after or any other day. Mike said he would get back to me. This was in one phone call not like Angie said I called back 3 days later to cancel. Mike emails, said family is first. No other attempt was made in that 30 day period. To address sick deer I did lose 4 fawns this winter. My vet. has been to my farm and inspect my deer, and I can guarantee my deer are healthy with no risk. I would never jepordize anybody's hurd by selling a sick deer. I would like to invite anyone to come visit my farm to see my operation before they judge me by a customer that is trying to hurt someone because they fill there right without hearing the other side. I have many references, names and phone # that can let you know I'm a stand up guy, and I would make it right if I'm wrong, and I been trying, but they have not exepted any offer. This is what I have offered Mike and Angie. He wanted a refund of his $650.00 deposit. I offered them, that we would split the lose. Angie said no. So then I offered a free straw of hammer or another fawn. Angie said no, if she didn't have a certified check in 7 days I would be hearing from there attorney. Then I tried one last time and offered Hammer and Grizzly semen free. Please tell me who isn't being fair here. Angie tells me we have a disagreement that the deer doesn't belong to fourseason until it is payed for in full and delivered to there farm, that any deer farmer will tell you this. She could see I'm right if the deer was on my farm for a year or two. Sorry it was only 6 months. Does every deer farmer what this at there farm. If this is the case people could be in the business and not even have a deer pen. Purchase deer leave them on the farm they purchased from until they sell it or it die's at no cost to them wow!!! Is this what are industry wants or is it fair to anyone. I was going to take the high road the other day after talking to John Yoder about this matter and send there money to them which I beleive they wanted back in Oct. because they purchased a deer they did not want and would try anything to get out of it. Then I get phone calls from a couple deer farms telling me that Fourseason whitetail is talking bad things about me and hurting my business. Now its about princable we need to make some kind of official time. I didn't sell them a sick deer but I'm sorry it got sick and die on my farm, they had plenty of time to get a healthy deer. We all lose deer and how is this far for me to eat it all. I even had people tell me, they didn't bid on animals at the last sale because of the lies Angie is writing, who should be sueing who. I just want this to be over its not helping anyone. Everybody that has visited my farm can tell you that my deer look as good as any farm they been to, and always ask what I feed them because they look better than most. I could keep going, but you have to stop somewhere. If anyone would like to talk with me about this matter or give me advice I would love to here from you and your thoughts thank you Dave 814-592-4351 or [email protected]
So who starts the paperwork?????
- Thread starter Four Seasons Whitetails
- Start date
Wow i dont think i can figure you out.The farmer that sold the deer as an unwritten rule owns the deer untill it leaves his farm.(all that i know anyways) You sold a deer at the end of aug and you knew it wouldnt leave utill nov at the earliest because of testing at the end of oct.That wipes out 3 of the 6 months you say he owned it and you want to charge him!If you wanted me to pay the balance after i bought it in aug and still couldnt get it untill oct or nov i would say screw that also.I would have tried to get you to keep the fawn also.It sounds to me you are kinda doin things *** backwards.What would be the big deal of him reselling the deer as long as he paid the vet trip and you got your balance.It has only been 6 months since the sale of the deer and YOU ate up 3 of them thats not his fault.I dont know 1 person that has bought deer from auction and paid in full it even says in sale book half down and other half at pickup or delivery.Most states take more than 30 days to get a permit i know one that took 3 months.It sounds like he was ready to pick up the deer and you backed out after the fact.If you told him you wouldnt be there and he said no problem YOUR family comes first.Then you are dealing with weather also.I would not accept another deer either if you are losing the number of deer you say you are.How can you say you are selling healthy deer when you are having deer die.4 deer is quite a few to lose and if the fawn he bought was fine on one day and dead 3 days later on your farm what says any other deer someone picks up wont die also.Bottom line is if it was me and i guess any other farmer i know it would be full refund for the buyer.Thats the way things were done i thought in the deer world with everyone i know and any add i have seen.If they didnt want your semen so be it they get a refund.I think if this goes to a judge you will lose when he hears the story and it will hurt you in the long run not them.In my eyes and i think you will find a few more you are in the wrong and not taking care of your customers no matter what! I was the one that sent you the email the other day about buck fawns. I think i will pass. Matt
Joined May 2009
2,369 Posts | 0+
Chillicothe, Missouri
Well Dave, I guess I have a few thoughts about this from my side of the fence.Did you ever have the dead deer tested? What did they die from?What was the original purchase price? You said they only wanted $650. back so was the original purchase price $1300.?And what did you want to board the deer for monthly? You offered a straw of Grizzly and Hammer and they declined(Maybe they didn't have the doe to make the cross with either that would make them happy and fill the need they had for purchasing the original fawn)..........You offered another fawn they declined (I would have to say I would not offer one until..... I knew what they were dying from and I would not blame them for not taking one either) So the bottom line is to make them happy they wanted a REFUND.............And if that made them happy and closed the chapter on this then I feel that would have been the best for both farms! Dave I do not know you from Adam. I do however know Mike and Angie and can tell you from my dealing with them and from the past post Four Seasons Whitetails has made on these forums that the last thing they want is to BASH or BADMOUTH anybody! But all that aside it will be pretty simple to solve all this!..... IF an Attorney does get involved.............E-mails that have been sent or recieved from either party WON'T LIE.............And then we all will know if it comes to that!!!!!! That HE said SHE said WE said will get a LOT clearer! My dad always said..........."It ain't no fun when the rabbitt has the gun!"......... So I say............Lets go wabbitt huntun!!!!!!!!!
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
Well dave my friend this is mike talking this time not angie.You dont know how glad i am that you had balls enough to put your name and farm name on this post.You say you are a standup kinda guy huh.Well tell me my friend why you sat here and just flat out lied to all these nice people.First of all you KNOW right hear and now that i have not spoken one word to you about any of this since sept 11 at the pa deer sale.So you are so full of it its not even funny.You say this has went on for 6 months so tell me how you add aug untill nov 1st before you could even move an animal.I sat there at that table and gave you my phone number and angie was sitting right next to me along with jeff snyder and i told you to call me when your testing was done.I never heard a freakin word from you =untill i sent you an email and asked you whats up with the deer and then you have balls enough to tell me i should have got the deer by now and you wanted the balance.Yeah right. You proved to me right there that you were not the guy to do buissness with and now you proved it.I have bought deer off alot of the people that read these words and they know who i am and they all treated me top notch without any question about anything.I paid 5 times more money than i paid for yours and never once was there a word about balance untill pickup.So my friend if this is how you do buisness i am sure you just lost a few more customers by your own words of how you operate. I think you forgot to tell these folks how you took one of the high ups of an auction service for a doe fawn not to long ago but i will hold that name back untill i get a call back that i have in to that gentlemen and then i will let them know who that is.Mabey you treated some other farmers like this and thats why you had a few bucks poached out of your preserve.Mabey????? Now lets get to the sick deer that you say you dont have.I agree everybody has lost deer but i cant say i know of anyone that has lost that many in that time...And then say you dont have a problem with your deer!!!!!!The report we got back from the vet says that 35% of the lungs were comprised.You say he was fine on friday and dead on monday..Hmmm.Now how can you say that someone picks one up this friday and its fine on yur farm but its dead on their farm monday morning.What you are sayin is the way you operate is that oh well it was fine on my farm the other day even though you know there is a chance that they could die..I wish anyone that gets one all the luck they can have.You see my friend this now has nothing to do with the $650 bucks this is about principle.We dont want semen if we do we know where the exchange is.You seem to be trying to get someone to think that angie is lieing about this whole thing.Well my friend if i was you i would get up in the morning and call your laywertell him what you have going on and put him on retainer.Because you see she runs 6 businesses has 4 lawyers on retainer and has every date,time and email that was sent and recieved through this whole deal.Even where you recieved our farm info on jan 24th and the vet didnt make it to your farm untill feb 11 to even get the permit going. This should get interesting!!!!
Hey mike have you guys heard any more on resolving this problem??I have talked to many people about this and nobody has heard of such a thing. I see wayne cant get any answers to the questions he asked so he must not want to get to deep into this.Hope you guys are well and everything works out in the end. Matt
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
No we have a couple lawyers looking at the paperwork..I cant speak for dave as far as not answering waynes questions but im sure he read them.The last we heard from him was that he thought we treated him unfairly.I am not sure where that comes from as he owned all the deer that died. If we treated him unfair on the one we were getting that died who treated him unfair on the other 3 or 4 that died?? Its just that we had a down payment on one and nobody did on the others.So i guess thats a way to recoup some of the loss on all that died.We should just let this go and whenever he has deer in an auction take out an add or just make sure everyone knows how(in his own words) that he does buisness.It is pretty petty when you think about the whole thing and probably not worth the time to take it to court but no matter what happens it will never go away or be forgotten by many that have read this thread and that will read many in the future
Your right Mike!!!! Ive been reading this and I will say in this time of economic hardship, and when you consider theres so many good breeders,and so many good deer, and so much competition!!!! That anybody selling deer would not just make good for it and save his name!! Doesnt make sense? Good luck hope it works out !!!
Scott Neeb
Chanlow Farms
The Heart of Pa Dutch Country
Scott Neeb
Chanlow Farms
The Heart of Pa Dutch Country
Well, Mike if you guys would have put all your energy into trying to resolve this problem with me instead of all of this bull crap this would have been over by now, and everyone would be happy. I was trying to work with you sending different options and would have kept trying until we found something that worked. That is what a good person does, can you all agree with that. I would like everyone out there to know that was what I was doing until I saw the posts and lies they were saying about me. The fact is you owned this deer and should have had some type of responsibility for it when you didn’t get him in the time period that was set up to get him. I’m sure your attorneys have told you this. I was still going to take the complete lose on it and send your $650.00 back just to make you happy and not make it a big deal because it was only $650.00, and to me that isn’t worth the time to even write this and be thinking about it. I would have kept working with you until we found something that made us both happy, but you didn’t even give it a chance. Instantly you were throwing orders and wanting to use attorneys because you have so many of them. Please tell me is this someone that is trying to work something out, and someone you want to do business with. Yes sure they might be great people when you don’t have a little problem. I would have never known about your posts on this site, if I had not been informed of it by a stand up guy who did not like to see you bashing me without hearing the other side of the story and allowing me to defend myself. I am sorry there was a communication problem about who was going to contact whom, but when we finally talked your forgetting to tell everyone you asked me if I would want the deer back and at that time in early nov. your telling everyone how much you what this deer. Are you denying this? That is when I emailed you and asked you to pay the balance and to set up some type of boarding fees if you could not get him, and I would keep him as long as you needed, but I would not want responsibility for your buck fawn. I put him in the auction to sell him not keep him. It was clear to me you didn’t want the deer you purchased or didn’t want to take it to your farm. Then you still say you wanted it. You even put it in an auction to sell. There was no sick deer at this point that you keep using for an excuse. When you have as many deer as I have, it’s common to lose 3 to 4 fawns in bad winters. I did not lose any adult deer to sickness. I’m glad Mike corrected his post 553 from 6 in 3 weeks to his new post. Now Mike please correct the rest of that post, were you lied or exaggerated everything in it. The only thing in it correct was the agreement of the end of oct.
Mike please let everyone out there know when you finely sent me your farm information to get the paper work started. Do not lie because it is on email, and everyone will see again how big of hurry you were in to get your deer and take responsibility.
Your new post 553 should show people what you are really like full of yourself, and I hope the people can see through you to see what type of person you really are. Thank you to the guys that been calling me and giving me support on this matter, and I understand why you don’t want to post and get involved because they may start talking about you next. I now understand why people are sick of selling deer when people never come to get them and leave them on their farm and expected to have no responsibility if something happens to them. Would some of you think about posting and change your mind to let these people know that it isn’t fair not to take responsibility when it’s their deer, but if you don’t I understand. I know you out there thanks.
There’s a big difference of someone out there selling sick deer or deer which don’t dna back, and they should be stopped and called out , this was not the case here, but this has happened to me and I’m sick of people taking advantage of me. I was trying to work it out, and they gave it no chance to happen. Anybody out there that buys a deer from me I can guarantee it is what I say and that at that sale there will be no communication issues again because I will put it in writing to be sure this will never happen again. I would suggest other people do this also so this never happens to you, it is not fun.
I do want everyone out there to know I’m pulling all my offers off the table at this point, they have said too much to turn back sorry. The other person Mike said I ripped off is John Yoder if this is true do you think he would talk to me and let me put deer in his auctions or purchase another deer from me at the last auction. Please call him and ask him. We talked about it and as far as I know everything is fine. This will be my last post on this matter. I’m waiting to hear from all the attorneys they have. I guarantee it has nothing to do with the money, and I would not rip someone off over $650.00 or 1 million and to go through this, they made it this not me. I’ll be glad to go to court to clear my name with the people that believe your side of the story. I do believe this was a communication problem on both are parts and I am sorry it had to end this way we are both to blame. If anyone would like to talk to me about this matter or have questions or suggestions or any other matter please call me at 814-592-4351 Dave
Mike please let everyone out there know when you finely sent me your farm information to get the paper work started. Do not lie because it is on email, and everyone will see again how big of hurry you were in to get your deer and take responsibility.
Your new post 553 should show people what you are really like full of yourself, and I hope the people can see through you to see what type of person you really are. Thank you to the guys that been calling me and giving me support on this matter, and I understand why you don’t want to post and get involved because they may start talking about you next. I now understand why people are sick of selling deer when people never come to get them and leave them on their farm and expected to have no responsibility if something happens to them. Would some of you think about posting and change your mind to let these people know that it isn’t fair not to take responsibility when it’s their deer, but if you don’t I understand. I know you out there thanks.
There’s a big difference of someone out there selling sick deer or deer which don’t dna back, and they should be stopped and called out , this was not the case here, but this has happened to me and I’m sick of people taking advantage of me. I was trying to work it out, and they gave it no chance to happen. Anybody out there that buys a deer from me I can guarantee it is what I say and that at that sale there will be no communication issues again because I will put it in writing to be sure this will never happen again. I would suggest other people do this also so this never happens to you, it is not fun.
I do want everyone out there to know I’m pulling all my offers off the table at this point, they have said too much to turn back sorry. The other person Mike said I ripped off is John Yoder if this is true do you think he would talk to me and let me put deer in his auctions or purchase another deer from me at the last auction. Please call him and ask him. We talked about it and as far as I know everything is fine. This will be my last post on this matter. I’m waiting to hear from all the attorneys they have. I guarantee it has nothing to do with the money, and I would not rip someone off over $650.00 or 1 million and to go through this, they made it this not me. I’ll be glad to go to court to clear my name with the people that believe your side of the story. I do believe this was a communication problem on both are parts and I am sorry it had to end this way we are both to blame. If anyone would like to talk to me about this matter or have questions or suggestions or any other matter please call me at 814-592-4351 Dave
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
Ok everyone....here goes some of the emails that went back and forth....Let me know what you think about these... Be sure to start at the bottom...Enjoy!!!
From: Mike Kerry <[email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 10:55:30 PM
Subject: RE: grizzly buck fawn
Dave,
I believe that we have a disagreement here that I hope we can resolve. I would hate to have to pursue with further actions.
Here is the timeline...
August 2010---Mike purchased a grizzly buck fawn from you thru the American Classic Auction.
September 2010--We introduced ourselves to you at the PA deer sale. You stated that we could not pick up the deer until after your herd testing the end of October. We were fine with that. You were to let us know when everything was all set.
November 2010...Mike sent you an email looking for a status. Your reply was that you expected the fawn to be picked up by now. At this point, no vet cert or permit had even been issued. We have bought many deer the last 6 months, the seller is responsible for the vet cert and getting the movement papers completed.
December 22, 2010--permit was issued for the deer. With Christmas and New Years, we waited until after January 1, 2011 to come get the deer.
January 7, 2011--We called to come and get the deer. You were going to be out of town for your daughter's cheerleading competition on Sunday. We would set it up for the following weekend. We got buried with 4 feet of snow for the next 3 weeks.
January 25th, 2011---You notified us that 4 of your deer had died with pneumonia. Our fawn was seperate and ready to go. We told you to get another vet cert done and we would pay for the 2nd one (even though the seller's responisibility). You stated it would be $100.00.
Feb 16, 2011---get email that buck fawn died.
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:50:46 -0800
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: grizzly buck fawn
To: [email protected]
Mike I fill that he was your deer and I was going to tell you I would split it. That you wouldn't have to pay the balance on him.I kept him way longer than most people do. I had two vet inspections done on him which is $250.00 feed and housing which a lot of people charge per day from 30 days from sale.
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From: Mike Kerry <[email protected]
To: Dave Reed <[email protected]
Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 9:14:51 AM
Subject: Re: grizzly buck fawn
wow that sucks! you have some great deer so you want to get to the bottom of this for sure. man i would think about takin a different deer but dont want to bring something in to my farm. do you just want to do a refund now and mabey we can do a deal after you figure things out? ---------- Sent from my Verizon Wireless mobile phone
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Reed
Sent: 2/16/2011 1:59:23 PM
To: Mike Kerry
Subject: Re: grizzly buck fawn
Mike Dave here got deer inspected last week. Went to Bon Jovi concerted with wife and friends for weekend came home mon. to find your buck fawn died. It was find last week. Penn State told me it was a strain of pneumonia. I been treating deer with top dress medicine. Penn state is letting me no what strain so the right med . can be used because what I use , most not be working sorry Dave.
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From: Mike Kerry <[email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, February 1, 2011 7:20:09 AM
Subject: RE: grizzly buck fawn
Dave i cant even think about buying a deer for 28grand. I didnt even spend that on my truck.lol I wonder why that guy let that deer go for such a low price.I am starting to see what you mean by if you dont have a name you wont get what they are worth.Do you do any advertising besides your website? Do you have a preserve on your place for hunting.You have some good named deer and i think you said they are all dna'd.I dont see why they would not move well.I know you dont like to get up and talk at auctions mabey there is another way to get your deer out there.Did you ever think of a partnership with someone.With you being in pa and there is so many farms there and alot of deer to compete with.I know steve at limerock just sold some to florida and a guy from pa called me about that maxbo victor doe i had in the sale.He ended up buyin it also. Mabey we can do something to help each other somewhere down the line.Let me know what the vet ends up doing at your place with the buck fawn and i will get right down there this time..lol... Take care!!
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 07:23:47 -0800
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: grizzly buck fawn
To: [email protected]
My vet never doesn't check them, hill come out no madder what. I wish I could fine one like some people have they don't even go to there farm and just charge $50.00 for the paper work. I'll call and get it started. Yes the sale was bad I gave 2 deer away also, that sucks put if you aren't the big guys its hard to get the money and that sale is always low. I never put great deer in it because they just don't bring no money. I felt bad for the gentlemen beside me that just got into this 3 years ago he purchase all of his herd from all the big guys and payed $28,000.00 for a deer he only got $3,000.00 for. Breed to a great buck the semen cost more than that. His other lot only got into $2,000.00 and it was a great deer also he payed more than $20,000.00 for. That's why this business is hard, its very hard to get in the click, as long as you purchase from these people there great but see if they ever purchase anything back or talk to you when your not buying from them. There's to many great deer out there for less than $5,000.00 nobody needs to be spending the money the big guys want. The sad thing is I learned the hard way to, most of my purchases are over $10,000.00 to 20,000.00 and I sell them to get 1,000 to 5,000.00 same animals 1 to 2 years later. I wish someone would of told me this before I spent 500,000.00 on my inventory, but that's how it goes. I still love my deer and I purchase much smarter now. Always remember the big guy's always say we back it up and guarantee it. They should when you pay that price and then some. I do and I don't even get close to there #'s.
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From: Mike Kerry <[email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, January 31, 2011 6:50:28 AM
Subject: RE: grizzly buck fawn
Hi dave,I couldnt make it to the sale because i had to go down to glenn dice's to pick up a bred doe i bought before that permit ran out also.I picked up one there and one at limerock whitetails.I talked to george and he said it will be no problem getting another permit to get your buck fawn.He said it would only be a couple days.You can call the vet and he probably wont even come out to look again but i am sure the charge will be the same.lol.I will cover your cost on this one.I gave the 2 does away i sold at the sale and i was not going to give him away also.I put 2500 on him and figured if he sold then i would make up for some of what i lost.Oh well you know how that goes and who knows because grizzly is putting some good deer on the ground for kelly.Did you ever get him dnad or did you get some hair to get him tested? I have to drop off a deer i sold to a guy down near rochester so i will drop that off and keep on going down to your place,
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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 18:17:21 -0800
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: grizzly buck fawn
To: [email protected]
Mike he looks great but so did the other one. I seen no signs with him. I think hill be fine. See you at the sale. The pneumonia was in a different pen were the other ones died.
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From: Mike Kerry <[email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, January 25, 2011 12:35:31 PM
Subject: RE: grizzly buck fawn
WOW dave thats crazy!!!Have you changed anything in their feed or moved pens that would set this off? I did fix the add a couple weeks ago as to not include 29 because i know you said someone wanted him.Do you think 28 will be fine to sell??? Were any off the fawns that died in with him?If he does not sell at the sale we will get the papers movin on monday and will come get him on the weekend if you think he is safe to move. Mike
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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 05:01:22 -0800
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: grizzly buck fawn
To: [email protected]
Mike yellow 29 died last week not sure why seen you had him with y-28 in sale this week. I lost three other fawns to pneumonia in the last month. he looked heathy not sure what happened.
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From: Mike Kerry <[email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, January 7, 2011 6:59:09 AM
Subject: RE: grizzly buck fawn
Hi dave it looks like we will plan on coming down next weekend for the fawn.Family comes first and they are callin for like 10in of snow up here anyways.I listed the fawn in the buckeye sale and i talked to mark and told him the fawn might be in ny by sale time.The permit is good untill after the sale so we can wait untill the sale or i can get him of the farm before the sale.If he does sell off your farm i will cover $100 for the vet to come back if need be but mabey it will just be paperwork.Either way we will get this done.I see you have some good deer in the sale also.You should do well with that breeding and it looks like prices are on the rise a little.Thanks dave
& ;nbs p; & nbsp;
&a mp;a mp;a mp;a mp;a mp;n bsp;& nbsp; Mike
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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 19:35:12 -0800
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: grizzly buck fawn
To: [email protected]
Mike I will need your complete address my vet came down friday and inspected the buck fawn and has evertything ready put he needed your address. Once I have that he should be good to go.The paper work is only good for 30 day. After that the whole process must be done again which costs $100.00
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: grizzly buck fawn
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:20:28 -0500
Dave i would have got him by now but you told me at the pa sale that you could not move anything untill you tested in october? i will send you my info and you can get the health papers and we can get him out of your hair! y28 will be fine as i want them as calm as possible. have you done any bow hunting yet?
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Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 05:40:38 -0800
From: [email protected]
Subject: grizzly buck fawn
To: [email protected]
Hi Mike I'm trying to thin down herd. I have to many deer still, wanting to decrease by 35% more, because of feed bill per month is $4,000.00. I been wondering what was going on, because people pick up there deer within 30 days of auction usually unless specail arangements are made. Y-28 is very nice with very nice buttons and calm. Y-29 got out of are fawn pen and got into are big pen with yearlings, haven't seen him at feeder to know what he looks like, but he isn't as calm and being in big pen makes them worst. Please let me know what's going on as soon as possible. We need to make some type of arrangments with the one you what or what to sell because I have someone that wants the one you don't pick and would like to come get it as soon as possible. Sorry if I didn't have to many deer I would keep him. I can keep him on farm as long as you need but I need the balance on him and I don't what the responsability if something would happen to him. We can set some type of boarding fee up like most farms do. Please let me know right away.
From: Mike Kerry <[email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 10:55:30 PM
Subject: RE: grizzly buck fawn
Dave,
I believe that we have a disagreement here that I hope we can resolve. I would hate to have to pursue with further actions.
Here is the timeline...
August 2010---Mike purchased a grizzly buck fawn from you thru the American Classic Auction.
September 2010--We introduced ourselves to you at the PA deer sale. You stated that we could not pick up the deer until after your herd testing the end of October. We were fine with that. You were to let us know when everything was all set.
November 2010...Mike sent you an email looking for a status. Your reply was that you expected the fawn to be picked up by now. At this point, no vet cert or permit had even been issued. We have bought many deer the last 6 months, the seller is responsible for the vet cert and getting the movement papers completed.
December 22, 2010--permit was issued for the deer. With Christmas and New Years, we waited until after January 1, 2011 to come get the deer.
January 7, 2011--We called to come and get the deer. You were going to be out of town for your daughter's cheerleading competition on Sunday. We would set it up for the following weekend. We got buried with 4 feet of snow for the next 3 weeks.
January 25th, 2011---You notified us that 4 of your deer had died with pneumonia. Our fawn was seperate and ready to go. We told you to get another vet cert done and we would pay for the 2nd one (even though the seller's responisibility). You stated it would be $100.00.
Feb 16, 2011---get email that buck fawn died.
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:50:46 -0800
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: grizzly buck fawn
To: [email protected]
Mike I fill that he was your deer and I was going to tell you I would split it. That you wouldn't have to pay the balance on him.I kept him way longer than most people do. I had two vet inspections done on him which is $250.00 feed and housing which a lot of people charge per day from 30 days from sale.
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From: Mike Kerry <[email protected]
To: Dave Reed <[email protected]
Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 9:14:51 AM
Subject: Re: grizzly buck fawn
wow that sucks! you have some great deer so you want to get to the bottom of this for sure. man i would think about takin a different deer but dont want to bring something in to my farm. do you just want to do a refund now and mabey we can do a deal after you figure things out? ---------- Sent from my Verizon Wireless mobile phone
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Reed
Sent: 2/16/2011 1:59:23 PM
To: Mike Kerry
Subject: Re: grizzly buck fawn
Mike Dave here got deer inspected last week. Went to Bon Jovi concerted with wife and friends for weekend came home mon. to find your buck fawn died. It was find last week. Penn State told me it was a strain of pneumonia. I been treating deer with top dress medicine. Penn state is letting me no what strain so the right med . can be used because what I use , most not be working sorry Dave.
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From: Mike Kerry <[email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, February 1, 2011 7:20:09 AM
Subject: RE: grizzly buck fawn
Dave i cant even think about buying a deer for 28grand. I didnt even spend that on my truck.lol I wonder why that guy let that deer go for such a low price.I am starting to see what you mean by if you dont have a name you wont get what they are worth.Do you do any advertising besides your website? Do you have a preserve on your place for hunting.You have some good named deer and i think you said they are all dna'd.I dont see why they would not move well.I know you dont like to get up and talk at auctions mabey there is another way to get your deer out there.Did you ever think of a partnership with someone.With you being in pa and there is so many farms there and alot of deer to compete with.I know steve at limerock just sold some to florida and a guy from pa called me about that maxbo victor doe i had in the sale.He ended up buyin it also. Mabey we can do something to help each other somewhere down the line.Let me know what the vet ends up doing at your place with the buck fawn and i will get right down there this time..lol... Take care!!
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 07:23:47 -0800
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: grizzly buck fawn
To: [email protected]
My vet never doesn't check them, hill come out no madder what. I wish I could fine one like some people have they don't even go to there farm and just charge $50.00 for the paper work. I'll call and get it started. Yes the sale was bad I gave 2 deer away also, that sucks put if you aren't the big guys its hard to get the money and that sale is always low. I never put great deer in it because they just don't bring no money. I felt bad for the gentlemen beside me that just got into this 3 years ago he purchase all of his herd from all the big guys and payed $28,000.00 for a deer he only got $3,000.00 for. Breed to a great buck the semen cost more than that. His other lot only got into $2,000.00 and it was a great deer also he payed more than $20,000.00 for. That's why this business is hard, its very hard to get in the click, as long as you purchase from these people there great but see if they ever purchase anything back or talk to you when your not buying from them. There's to many great deer out there for less than $5,000.00 nobody needs to be spending the money the big guys want. The sad thing is I learned the hard way to, most of my purchases are over $10,000.00 to 20,000.00 and I sell them to get 1,000 to 5,000.00 same animals 1 to 2 years later. I wish someone would of told me this before I spent 500,000.00 on my inventory, but that's how it goes. I still love my deer and I purchase much smarter now. Always remember the big guy's always say we back it up and guarantee it. They should when you pay that price and then some. I do and I don't even get close to there #'s.
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From: Mike Kerry <[email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, January 31, 2011 6:50:28 AM
Subject: RE: grizzly buck fawn
Hi dave,I couldnt make it to the sale because i had to go down to glenn dice's to pick up a bred doe i bought before that permit ran out also.I picked up one there and one at limerock whitetails.I talked to george and he said it will be no problem getting another permit to get your buck fawn.He said it would only be a couple days.You can call the vet and he probably wont even come out to look again but i am sure the charge will be the same.lol.I will cover your cost on this one.I gave the 2 does away i sold at the sale and i was not going to give him away also.I put 2500 on him and figured if he sold then i would make up for some of what i lost.Oh well you know how that goes and who knows because grizzly is putting some good deer on the ground for kelly.Did you ever get him dnad or did you get some hair to get him tested? I have to drop off a deer i sold to a guy down near rochester so i will drop that off and keep on going down to your place,
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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 18:17:21 -0800
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: grizzly buck fawn
To: [email protected]
Mike he looks great but so did the other one. I seen no signs with him. I think hill be fine. See you at the sale. The pneumonia was in a different pen were the other ones died.
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From: Mike Kerry <[email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, January 25, 2011 12:35:31 PM
Subject: RE: grizzly buck fawn
WOW dave thats crazy!!!Have you changed anything in their feed or moved pens that would set this off? I did fix the add a couple weeks ago as to not include 29 because i know you said someone wanted him.Do you think 28 will be fine to sell??? Were any off the fawns that died in with him?If he does not sell at the sale we will get the papers movin on monday and will come get him on the weekend if you think he is safe to move. Mike
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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 05:01:22 -0800
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: grizzly buck fawn
To: [email protected]
Mike yellow 29 died last week not sure why seen you had him with y-28 in sale this week. I lost three other fawns to pneumonia in the last month. he looked heathy not sure what happened.
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From: Mike Kerry <[email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, January 7, 2011 6:59:09 AM
Subject: RE: grizzly buck fawn
Hi dave it looks like we will plan on coming down next weekend for the fawn.Family comes first and they are callin for like 10in of snow up here anyways.I listed the fawn in the buckeye sale and i talked to mark and told him the fawn might be in ny by sale time.The permit is good untill after the sale so we can wait untill the sale or i can get him of the farm before the sale.If he does sell off your farm i will cover $100 for the vet to come back if need be but mabey it will just be paperwork.Either way we will get this done.I see you have some good deer in the sale also.You should do well with that breeding and it looks like prices are on the rise a little.Thanks dave
& ;nbs p; & nbsp;
&a mp;a mp;a mp;a mp;a mp;n bsp;& nbsp; Mike
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Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 19:35:12 -0800
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: grizzly buck fawn
To: [email protected]
Mike I will need your complete address my vet came down friday and inspected the buck fawn and has evertything ready put he needed your address. Once I have that he should be good to go.The paper work is only good for 30 day. After that the whole process must be done again which costs $100.00
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: grizzly buck fawn
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:20:28 -0500
Dave i would have got him by now but you told me at the pa sale that you could not move anything untill you tested in october? i will send you my info and you can get the health papers and we can get him out of your hair! y28 will be fine as i want them as calm as possible. have you done any bow hunting yet?
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Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 05:40:38 -0800
From: [email protected]
Subject: grizzly buck fawn
To: [email protected]
Hi Mike I'm trying to thin down herd. I have to many deer still, wanting to decrease by 35% more, because of feed bill per month is $4,000.00. I been wondering what was going on, because people pick up there deer within 30 days of auction usually unless specail arangements are made. Y-28 is very nice with very nice buttons and calm. Y-29 got out of are fawn pen and got into are big pen with yearlings, haven't seen him at feeder to know what he looks like, but he isn't as calm and being in big pen makes them worst. Please let me know what's going on as soon as possible. We need to make some type of arrangments with the one you what or what to sell because I have someone that wants the one you don't pick and would like to come get it as soon as possible. Sorry if I didn't have to many deer I would keep him. I can keep him on farm as long as you need but I need the balance on him and I don't what the responsability if something would happen to him. We can set some type of boarding fee up like most farms do. Please let me know right away.
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
Dave you can try to turn this any way you would like.The emails dont lie and it does not really matter at this point.Bottom line is you sold at an auction in aug well knowing it could not even get vet checked untill late oct to even start the paperwork.Now you want to charge 650.00 boarding fee from say nov till it died in early feb.I have bought deer from alot of these guys on here so they know how our purchase from them went down.Let me tell you how it went..SMOOTH..You see they did there part as deer farmers,they sold a deer,waited a week or two and then contacted ME to get the ball rollin.Not once did i have to lift a finger to do any part of their part of the deal and it was done in a matter of months.They didnt sell and then say i cant move it.I took a doe off of dustins farm that was not even fully paid for and we are not talkin a measly 650.00.As far as the john yoder deal i dont know you would have to call him and ask him why he called us and told us what you did to himafter we told him what was goin on.Kinda funny dont ya think.Tell us about the partnership you had a few years back..Hmm how did i hear about that one.I could bring so many people into this mess that have had a few words to say about you but i wont bring good people into this mess.You say you were tryin to help us out in different ways(1) I dont think i would want to choose another fawn off a farm that has lost 4 i guess it is fawns in the last month(2) A straw of your deer that i would have no use for if it was free (3) A straw of your deer and of grizzly. Grizzly was a great deer but i have no cross i would like to put him in.So there you have it.You say you would have just gave a refund and this would have been over.Well my friend you had that choise on feb 16th and you chose not to then but now you say you would have..Kinda funky there.Mabey i can help you out with my 650.00 and go ahead and put it on your feed bill.It sounds like you might be in a little deep as you told some people that you called to try and bad mouth me.Ya know the whole part that puzzles me is that you keep telling people that you talk with me over and over when i have met you one time and talked to you one time and that was sept 11 at the pa sale.Emails yes talking i dont think so.Mabey you are right and auctions will have to put all sales in a contract that says buyer gets a healthy deer or a full refund..All of the farms that i know all ready have that policy as you were told by at least one of them and they wouldnt need it but i guess you and a few of the ones you know dont carry that on their farm.I think those will be the ones you will see out of deer soon.You put in your own words that if someone buys a deer from you and something like this happens again tough **** for them it was their deer and im keepin the cash.Like i said i am done with this and im sure most that are reading this soap opera are to.People have heard how you do buisness so i guess it will be up to them if they want to play the lottery.
Joined Apr 2009
640 Posts | 0+
Mineral Point, MO
Mike I can see where you are upset but I also see where Dave is coming from. Mike you buy a deer in Aug. it then stays on Daves farm for 3 months or so and Dave sends you a e-mail on Nov. 10 which says
"I can keep him on farm as long as you need but I need the balance on him and I don't what the responsability if something would happen to him. We can set some type of boarding fee up like most farms do. Please let me know right away."
After that e-mail the buck stays on Daves farm for 3 more months before it dies in that time Dave is feeding it and has $250 in vet papers in the buck.
With that said I think both parties should chuck it up as a loss. I would have to say it strikes a nerve when I see dirty laundry being aired out an a public forum. I have seen deals go bad and its never good for anybody but it should be handled a little differant then this has been.
Again I am not taking sides and I dont know either of you but from what I have heard here I don't think Dave was out to screw you and he was up front with you in the e-mail he sent on Nov. 10.
"I can keep him on farm as long as you need but I need the balance on him and I don't what the responsability if something would happen to him. We can set some type of boarding fee up like most farms do. Please let me know right away."
After that e-mail the buck stays on Daves farm for 3 more months before it dies in that time Dave is feeding it and has $250 in vet papers in the buck.
With that said I think both parties should chuck it up as a loss. I would have to say it strikes a nerve when I see dirty laundry being aired out an a public forum. I have seen deals go bad and its never good for anybody but it should be handled a little differant then this has been.
Again I am not taking sides and I dont know either of you but from what I have heard here I don't think Dave was out to screw you and he was up front with you in the e-mail he sent on Nov. 10.
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
Randy,
I totally agree with you about the "dirty laundry". Mike put the post up to see if we were wrong. This is new to us and we have never been treated like this with any of the 10 purchases that we have bought in the last year. We did not bring up names as we did not want anyone hurt, but were looking for different opinions from fellow deer farmers. Dave is the one that came out with his name.
When we spoke with Dave at the PA sale, he had to do his testing in October so the deer could not be moved until after the testing was done. When we received the email November 10th, we were a little taken back as Mike told him in September that we can go get him anytime after the permit was issued and his testing done. We told Dave to get the paperwork started after that email and we would come and get the deer. We wanted the deer home on the farm. The permit was not issued until December 22, 2010. With the holidays and our families, we waited until after January 1, to go get the deer. We can not move a deer without the permit as you well know. Like most families, we both work and could not go until a weekend and we wanted to go January 7th to pick up the deer. Dave had a family commitment that weekend, which we totally understand but I can not control the weather either. We unfortunatly got buried with 4 feet of snow over the next two weeks and then the permit expired. We told Dave that we would pay for the 2nd permit which in his email dated December 13th, he said it was $100.00. The 2nd vet cert was dated Feb 11. The 2nd moving permit was not even issued when the deer died. I can not control that either. I think we were more than fair on our part too.
Angie
I totally agree with you about the "dirty laundry". Mike put the post up to see if we were wrong. This is new to us and we have never been treated like this with any of the 10 purchases that we have bought in the last year. We did not bring up names as we did not want anyone hurt, but were looking for different opinions from fellow deer farmers. Dave is the one that came out with his name.
When we spoke with Dave at the PA sale, he had to do his testing in October so the deer could not be moved until after the testing was done. When we received the email November 10th, we were a little taken back as Mike told him in September that we can go get him anytime after the permit was issued and his testing done. We told Dave to get the paperwork started after that email and we would come and get the deer. We wanted the deer home on the farm. The permit was not issued until December 22, 2010. With the holidays and our families, we waited until after January 1, to go get the deer. We can not move a deer without the permit as you well know. Like most families, we both work and could not go until a weekend and we wanted to go January 7th to pick up the deer. Dave had a family commitment that weekend, which we totally understand but I can not control the weather either. We unfortunatly got buried with 4 feet of snow over the next two weeks and then the permit expired. We told Dave that we would pay for the 2nd permit which in his email dated December 13th, he said it was $100.00. The 2nd vet cert was dated Feb 11. The 2nd moving permit was not even issued when the deer died. I can not control that either. I think we were more than fair on our part too.
Angie
Randy i think i would have to kinda disagree with you in a way.i am very new with only a handful of deer and i now see both parties are at fault.There is no way that it should have took dave that long to get the papers to move a deer when really mabey he should not have deer at auction that could not move when sold.if testing was an issue it mabey should have been said that in the auction catalog.i have that book and it was not.i would think 650 is high for boarding a deer a fawn no less for really a couple months because it was not four seasons fault that it could not move intill nov because it was not tested.period. comunication problem for sure on both parts but really turkey hill for sellin an untested deer at sale or not contacting the buyer the instent it was sold and said this deer has to move now because of testing problem.i always read and was told told always stand behind your sales to people from a 20plus year deer farmer even if it means no sale and full refund,thats not what turkey hill does i figure,
Joined Apr 2009
640 Posts | 0+
Mineral Point, MO
Deerfarmer,
That was my point both parties are at fault thats way I said that both sides should chulk it up as a loss. There were papers and the deer was ready to be picked up after Nov. 10 when Dave said he no longer wanted the responsibility of the deer any more so at the point it was up to Four Seasons to pick it up I understand that it was a busy time of year but at that point Dave was being up front.
On the other hand $650 is high to board a deer for that amount of time although there was some vet bills in the mix as well.
Both parties could have and should have handled this better Dave said he did offer some semen for there loss (a lot of farms do this and if Dave did offer what he said he did then Four Seasons should have taken him up on this)
The best thing would be if Dave and Mike can get on the phone and come to some sort of agreement we have to many against us we dont need to be fighting with each other.
One side needs to step up and take the first step in taking resonsibility for the wrong in the whole process and then the other should follow but someone has to swollow there pride and be first.
Just my two cents.
That was my point both parties are at fault thats way I said that both sides should chulk it up as a loss. There were papers and the deer was ready to be picked up after Nov. 10 when Dave said he no longer wanted the responsibility of the deer any more so at the point it was up to Four Seasons to pick it up I understand that it was a busy time of year but at that point Dave was being up front.
On the other hand $650 is high to board a deer for that amount of time although there was some vet bills in the mix as well.
Both parties could have and should have handled this better Dave said he did offer some semen for there loss (a lot of farms do this and if Dave did offer what he said he did then Four Seasons should have taken him up on this)
The best thing would be if Dave and Mike can get on the phone and come to some sort of agreement we have to many against us we dont need to be fighting with each other.
One side needs to step up and take the first step in taking resonsibility for the wrong in the whole process and then the other should follow but someone has to swollow there pride and be first.
Just my two cents.
yes sir i agree it sucks for everyone involved i guess.i cant say i would have taken another fawn as its clear he has a health problem on his farm and that could transfur a bad thing to another farm.semen well if they didnt have a use for that kind of deer in there program ????? 4 deer dead that seems like alot i have never talked to some and they have deer for years and years and have not lost 4 total.geeze that would wipe me out of deer.lol i myself as many others would have gave refund of some kind minus boarding fee of some kind i guess but 650 wow wow thats deep. mabey at that moneyi should just try to raise other peoples deer.lol.hope they can work it out without laywers and court cause that will cost someone more then any 650 dollars,
4 deer is not a lot ...large farms, 200 does...400+ fawns , it would not surprise me to lose 50-60 in the first year.
Mike you are a joke and maybe you should try to grow some??????. This is Dave's wife he will not post again.You lie so much to cover your tracks and make your self look good your like watching my soaps. You are the soap opera. It is so covenant to leave things out that shows you to look bad. For example date you sent my husband the information he needed to even get the paper work started and the e-mails he sent you after the last one you posted. Where he was still trying to make you happy even after your threats. How about the phone call you made asking him if he wanted the deer back and if he's doing any hunting, was that a ghost in November . That was the phone call that made him send you the e-mail on November the 10. Big gap between you getting back. If you have nothing better to do, go find a job maybe the soaps will hirer you.As far as I'm concerned he can give all his deer away, especially with people like you out there.
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
I know i am getting old and mabey i lost my mind but the only time i remember talking to dave about hunting was sept 11 at the pa sale and then if you go back up to the email i sent to him on nov 10th and asked if he had done any bowhunting.Bottom line is we are both in the wrong and im done with it.He has said what he wanted to say about what he thinks is fair and i guess we just disagree.I never said he didnt try to work with us as its there in black and white.Mabey with us being new and having bought 15 other deer in the last year and a half and never hearing a thing about boarding deer after purchase unless it was for a length of time.I dont see nov to feb a length of time as some of the ones i bought took that long to get a permit.I am done with this as much as dave is and as far as im concerned its done.We didnt want to take a chance on another fawn and had no use for the semen.Live and learn i guess and mabey after hearing of other farmers that have had some other deals go bad with other farms i should have just ate the 650 then as i am now.Trying to make myself look good would never work as i see no reason and that would be a losing battle.Just misunderstanding of the way things were done in the deer world i guess.Mabey our's,Mabey your's, probably both either way its time to move on.