I was just wondering what the chances are of a big NON typical siring TYPICAL fawns? Is it common or do the fawns usually turn out NON typical as well like their daddy?
What is the possibility?
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Sudden Impact, Drifter, are two more sires that consistently throw big typicals. Look at their offspring to confirm my statement.-Jason
I have a 150+ all typical out of birchwood who scored 350 this year as a 4 year old, he is a lonewood son , the mother is a blitzen daughter, it works!!!
Scott Neeb
Chanllow farms
Scott Neeb
Chanllow farms
G'day Smoking 44
The girl carries/gives 50% of the genetics.(will the non typical dominate hers?).
When crossing two different lines,strains,sub species,P1,etc for the first time heritability can often be predicted.These F1 animals inherit the diminant traits from each parent.
Nature is kind to us,as dominant traits are usually(not always) good.This is hybrid vigour.
If the sire or dam is an F2 predicting heritability is a gamble,its worse in the F3.
F3 is interesting because its when all potential combinations could be expressed.Breeders with objectives catch the desired combinations here & line breed untill heritability is again predictable,about F5 or F6.You then have a line or pedegree.
Crossing outside lines or pedegree can put you back unless you have an objective in mind.It then takes several more generations to predict heritability again.
Is non-typical dominant in your sire or dam or both?
Are they F1,F2,F3,etc crosses from a non typical?
A question I to would like an answer to. Is a non typical from a predictable line dominant over a typical from a predictable line?
Cheers Sharkey
The girl carries/gives 50% of the genetics.(will the non typical dominate hers?).
When crossing two different lines,strains,sub species,P1,etc for the first time heritability can often be predicted.These F1 animals inherit the diminant traits from each parent.
Nature is kind to us,as dominant traits are usually(not always) good.This is hybrid vigour.
If the sire or dam is an F2 predicting heritability is a gamble,its worse in the F3.
F3 is interesting because its when all potential combinations could be expressed.Breeders with objectives catch the desired combinations here & line breed untill heritability is again predictable,about F5 or F6.You then have a line or pedegree.
Crossing outside lines or pedegree can put you back unless you have an objective in mind.It then takes several more generations to predict heritability again.
Is non-typical dominant in your sire or dam or both?
Are they F1,F2,F3,etc crosses from a non typical?
A question I to would like an answer to. Is a non typical from a predictable line dominant over a typical from a predictable line?
Cheers Sharkey
It's been a few years & it hasn't come up again, but I'm still curious.
If we cross a P1 (from a true breeding & predictable line with no outcrosses for five generations) non typical, with a P1 typical, what will the F1 offspring look like? This should give us an insight into which genes are dominant. I'm not interested in crosses from F1,F2, F3 animals as wont give us a definitive answer, we need to know how the F1's look. Once we establish this we can reproduce these F1 animals with predictability.
How many people keep track of their genetics this way? How do you guarantee the heritability or "pass down" any other way? Is it all just a gamble?
If we cross a P1 (from a true breeding & predictable line with no outcrosses for five generations) non typical, with a P1 typical, what will the F1 offspring look like? This should give us an insight into which genes are dominant. I'm not interested in crosses from F1,F2, F3 animals as wont give us a definitive answer, we need to know how the F1's look. Once we establish this we can reproduce these F1 animals with predictability.
How many people keep track of their genetics this way? How do you guarantee the heritability or "pass down" any other way? Is it all just a gamble?
There has been a few views & nobody wants to reply? Well this is how I look at selecting a sire or dam.
I try to keep only P1 animals, that is animals which will breed true & every animal in the herd will express the same phenotype. If I open the herd it takes at least five generations to get back to a P1 foundation. When we outcross to a different phenotype we produce an F1 generation. When we cross the F1 generation we have F2, cross the F2 we get F3 & so on. If we back cross an F1 animal back to an original P1 animal we have an F1b, if we back cross an F2 animal to a P1 we will have a F2b, with a lot of the lack of predictability that is typical of any F2 animal.
Lets say I want to open my line & bring in another phenotype, maybe I'm looking at using a small bodied deer with big antlers over my big bodied deer with relatively small antlers. The resulting F1 generation will usually be magnificent, genetics is kind to us on this first cross because the results are usually very predictable & the way hybrid vigour works is that the best traits are usually the most dominant. These F1's are magnificent looking animals, but if you don't know what to expect from the next generation, stop here. I am happy to produce these F1's from P1 crosses but its very rare that I would breed them. They are always dissapointing as sires & dams & generally the best that the resulting F2 crosses from them can do is come within 75% of best traits of the original P1 animals.
If you understand there is a pattern in all the randomness of genetics, producing F2 animals can't be all bad. If they are used to produce an F3 generation the genes may just line up in a way that you produce a super star (consider this like a lottery win, someone has to win but the odds are poor). This generation can be very exciting if you have good animals turn up & the determination & patience to carry through to your objectives. Here we take the best F3 animals & produce an F4 generation. This F4 generation well start to have some predictability in its heritability, they will start to look like the F3 animals you selected to breed them from. Breeding the best of them will produce F5 & these will be very predictable in what they pass down. IMO I still think you need a couple more generations before you can consider you have established a true breeding line or have P1 animals again.
So what would I do if I was entering the whitetail breeding game? I'd go & buy the best P1 does I could find, that is all the does from the same place & with no out crosses for hopefully 5 generations. I would try to improve this line by selective breeding within the line but never introduce a different P1 F1, F2, etc animal to polute them. I'd need predictable P1 does to produce magnificent F1 animals using whatever good P1 bucks I can find by outcrossing for hybrid vigour. The resulting F1 animals would all be "terminal". I would never breed them (unless I wanted to start at least five generations of work), yes all the F1 does would be culled, every single one. Once I have the "recipe" for F1 animals they are 99% predictable every time. To do this I need to maintan (& slowly improve) my "foundation" herd of original P1 does as a seperate herd, including the best bucks from this line as sires. These are the basis of the recipes, which could include "typical" & "non typical" sires. Magnificent F1 bucks with hybrid vivour could be produced to order with 99% predictability, & again these would never be used as sires.
Has anyone ever bought a magnificent buck only to be dissapointed with its "pass down"? Have you ever considered if it was an F1 animal?
I try to keep only P1 animals, that is animals which will breed true & every animal in the herd will express the same phenotype. If I open the herd it takes at least five generations to get back to a P1 foundation. When we outcross to a different phenotype we produce an F1 generation. When we cross the F1 generation we have F2, cross the F2 we get F3 & so on. If we back cross an F1 animal back to an original P1 animal we have an F1b, if we back cross an F2 animal to a P1 we will have a F2b, with a lot of the lack of predictability that is typical of any F2 animal.
Lets say I want to open my line & bring in another phenotype, maybe I'm looking at using a small bodied deer with big antlers over my big bodied deer with relatively small antlers. The resulting F1 generation will usually be magnificent, genetics is kind to us on this first cross because the results are usually very predictable & the way hybrid vigour works is that the best traits are usually the most dominant. These F1's are magnificent looking animals, but if you don't know what to expect from the next generation, stop here. I am happy to produce these F1's from P1 crosses but its very rare that I would breed them. They are always dissapointing as sires & dams & generally the best that the resulting F2 crosses from them can do is come within 75% of best traits of the original P1 animals.
If you understand there is a pattern in all the randomness of genetics, producing F2 animals can't be all bad. If they are used to produce an F3 generation the genes may just line up in a way that you produce a super star (consider this like a lottery win, someone has to win but the odds are poor). This generation can be very exciting if you have good animals turn up & the determination & patience to carry through to your objectives. Here we take the best F3 animals & produce an F4 generation. This F4 generation well start to have some predictability in its heritability, they will start to look like the F3 animals you selected to breed them from. Breeding the best of them will produce F5 & these will be very predictable in what they pass down. IMO I still think you need a couple more generations before you can consider you have established a true breeding line or have P1 animals again.
So what would I do if I was entering the whitetail breeding game? I'd go & buy the best P1 does I could find, that is all the does from the same place & with no out crosses for hopefully 5 generations. I would try to improve this line by selective breeding within the line but never introduce a different P1 F1, F2, etc animal to polute them. I'd need predictable P1 does to produce magnificent F1 animals using whatever good P1 bucks I can find by outcrossing for hybrid vigour. The resulting F1 animals would all be "terminal". I would never breed them (unless I wanted to start at least five generations of work), yes all the F1 does would be culled, every single one. Once I have the "recipe" for F1 animals they are 99% predictable every time. To do this I need to maintan (& slowly improve) my "foundation" herd of original P1 does as a seperate herd, including the best bucks from this line as sires. These are the basis of the recipes, which could include "typical" & "non typical" sires. Magnificent F1 bucks with hybrid vivour could be produced to order with 99% predictability, & again these would never be used as sires.
Has anyone ever bought a magnificent buck only to be dissapointed with its "pass down"? Have you ever considered if it was an F1 animal?
Joined Apr 2014
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Greensburg, IN
sharkey1064451457410042
It's been a few years & it hasn't come up again, but I'm still curious.
If we cross a P1 (from a true breeding & predictable line with no outcrosses for five generations) non typical, with a P1 typical, what will the F1 offspring look like? This should give us an insight into which genes are dominant. I'm not interested in crosses from F1,F2, F3 animals as wont give us a definitive answer, we need to know how the F1's look. Once we establish this we can reproduce these F1 animals with predictability.
How many people keep track of their genetics this way? How do you guarantee the heritability or "pass down" any other way? Is it all just a gamble?IMO
Some variations will occur in antler expression regardless of how disciplined we are as breeders. I do believe that breeders can easily make substantial gains in particular desired traits of antler expression in the F1 generation by crossing a 100% northern subspecies of whitetail with a 100% pure Texas subspecies. I have paid attention to this concept. Getting an F2 to express simular antler expression to an F1 parent is not a task for the impatient. For the purpose of quickly growing magnificent F1 stocker bucks, I believe there is definitely a quick advantage to be gained by heterosis. This should not be overlooked.
It's been a few years & it hasn't come up again, but I'm still curious.
If we cross a P1 (from a true breeding & predictable line with no outcrosses for five generations) non typical, with a P1 typical, what will the F1 offspring look like? This should give us an insight into which genes are dominant. I'm not interested in crosses from F1,F2, F3 animals as wont give us a definitive answer, we need to know how the F1's look. Once we establish this we can reproduce these F1 animals with predictability.
How many people keep track of their genetics this way? How do you guarantee the heritability or "pass down" any other way? Is it all just a gamble?IMO
Some variations will occur in antler expression regardless of how disciplined we are as breeders. I do believe that breeders can easily make substantial gains in particular desired traits of antler expression in the F1 generation by crossing a 100% northern subspecies of whitetail with a 100% pure Texas subspecies. I have paid attention to this concept. Getting an F2 to express simular antler expression to an F1 parent is not a task for the impatient. For the purpose of quickly growing magnificent F1 stocker bucks, I believe there is definitely a quick advantage to be gained by heterosis. This should not be overlooked.
Breeding a P1 from either side to a F2 will produce an F2b. This is an attempt by some to strengthen one side of the initial cross. These animals still have the inconsistency on the other half of a F2 so the odds of producing a F3 closer to that backcross side is only slightly better, its a bit like trying to remove dark grains of sand from a white beach by throwing more dark grains in after you have just spent the last two generations trying to get them out. I wouldn't do it unless I had a pretty good reason. There isny any short cuts to getting P1 animals. Only P1 animals can be trusted to have good pass down genetics. F2 animals usually cant come closer than 75% of the best features of the usually magnificent F1"hybrid " parents, if folks try to claim they can be better then I'd take a very good look at the sire & dam to see if they were both actually F1 animals.
Lets look at the recipe for record trophy red stags. Take a P1 English hind (preferably Warnham or Wouburn) for large antlers to body size & lots of points in the crown & take a F1 stag from a P1 German (heavy beams) & P1 Yugo (long beams & bifuricating points) cross. This will produce magnificent F1 stags but with the poor pass down (75% at best) if he is used as a sire. He should be termimal unless as a breeder you can produce thousands of F3 from him & genetically similar animals to get a couple of good F3 animals so you can go on to produce F4's. You have opened the gene pool so wide (three different phenotypes) that you will really will need thousands of F3's if you want to get close to the magnificent F1's by F5 or F6. So what is the easiest way to produce these magnificent trophy red deer (unless you have 25 years & the ability to select & cull thousands of animals)? By keeping pure lines of English, German & Yugo deer & producing F1 hybrids to order, this is 99% predictable once the recipies are established, but all of these hybrids should then be terminal.
So our F2 generation will be somewhere between 25- 75% of the best traits of our P1's that's not me saying it, thats how genetics works, it's dissapointing for people who buy F1's as sires or dams. The F3 generation is a wide open book & every concievable combination is possible here, so whilst you can get big deer & big antlers you will also get the worst of the original P1 animals, so small deer & small antlers. Yes, these are the grandchildren of those magnificent first F1 crosses. I find the F3 generation very exciting as a breeder because if you win the lottery & a couple of great animals show up close to the phenotype you are seeking they will have better passdown than thier parents (F2) or grandparents (F1), but what are the odds of winning? You need lots of deer in the F3 generation & you must be prepared to cull 99%. F4 animals are much more predictable & by F6 you should have anew P1 line if you have followed the rules.
Lets look at the recipe for record trophy red stags. Take a P1 English hind (preferably Warnham or Wouburn) for large antlers to body size & lots of points in the crown & take a F1 stag from a P1 German (heavy beams) & P1 Yugo (long beams & bifuricating points) cross. This will produce magnificent F1 stags but with the poor pass down (75% at best) if he is used as a sire. He should be termimal unless as a breeder you can produce thousands of F3 from him & genetically similar animals to get a couple of good F3 animals so you can go on to produce F4's. You have opened the gene pool so wide (three different phenotypes) that you will really will need thousands of F3's if you want to get close to the magnificent F1's by F5 or F6. So what is the easiest way to produce these magnificent trophy red deer (unless you have 25 years & the ability to select & cull thousands of animals)? By keeping pure lines of English, German & Yugo deer & producing F1 hybrids to order, this is 99% predictable once the recipies are established, but all of these hybrids should then be terminal.
So our F2 generation will be somewhere between 25- 75% of the best traits of our P1's that's not me saying it, thats how genetics works, it's dissapointing for people who buy F1's as sires or dams. The F3 generation is a wide open book & every concievable combination is possible here, so whilst you can get big deer & big antlers you will also get the worst of the original P1 animals, so small deer & small antlers. Yes, these are the grandchildren of those magnificent first F1 crosses. I find the F3 generation very exciting as a breeder because if you win the lottery & a couple of great animals show up close to the phenotype you are seeking they will have better passdown than thier parents (F2) or grandparents (F1), but what are the odds of winning? You need lots of deer in the F3 generation & you must be prepared to cull 99%. F4 animals are much more predictable & by F6 you should have anew P1 line if you have followed the rules.
in said P1 group is it family related or is it genetically related? Or some other form of control group? I've been trying to study this and look into different views on the subject it seems that some believe that line/inbreeding is based on family orientation such as parents, siblings, nieces, and so forth and others believe that a complete stranger may be more genetically similar than a brother and a sister based on the genes.
is it possible to attain a line of animals that does not need to be outcrossed to produce an F1 but consistently produces progeny that is desired? Or are seperate herds or herd sires going to always be on the horizon.
is it possible to attain a line of animals that does not need to be outcrossed to produce an F1 but consistently produces progeny that is desired? Or are seperate herds or herd sires going to always be on the horizon.
Joined Apr 2014
1,245 Posts | 0+
Greensburg, IN
sharkey1064451457410042
It's been a few years & it hasn't come up again, but I'm still curious.
If we cross a P1 (from a true breeding & predictable line with no outcrosses for five generations) non typical, with a P1 typical, what will the F1 offspring look like? This should give us an insight into which genes are dominant. I'm not interested in crosses from F1,F2, F3 animals as wont give us a definitive answer, we need to know how the F1's look. Once we establish this we can reproduce these F1 animals with predictability.
How many people keep track of their genetics this way? How do you guarantee the heritability or "pass down" any other way? Is it all just a gamble?I believe some of this depends on which P1 parent was non typical. Heritability of antler traits are different from each sex. Inside the reproductive cell it is a 50/ 50 split of the each parent. There is matter attached to the outside of the cell that may affect body size and mass. The mother is the 100% contributor to this material
It's been a few years & it hasn't come up again, but I'm still curious.
If we cross a P1 (from a true breeding & predictable line with no outcrosses for five generations) non typical, with a P1 typical, what will the F1 offspring look like? This should give us an insight into which genes are dominant. I'm not interested in crosses from F1,F2, F3 animals as wont give us a definitive answer, we need to know how the F1's look. Once we establish this we can reproduce these F1 animals with predictability.
How many people keep track of their genetics this way? How do you guarantee the heritability or "pass down" any other way? Is it all just a gamble?I believe some of this depends on which P1 parent was non typical. Heritability of antler traits are different from each sex. Inside the reproductive cell it is a 50/ 50 split of the each parent. There is matter attached to the outside of the cell that may affect body size and mass. The mother is the 100% contributor to this material
P1 is the parental line, it can be a subspecies so long as the phenotype & genotype of that sub species is tight, there really shouldnt be hybrid vigour from any pairing of the P1 line. Myself, I am happy call animals which were out crossed at least five generations beforehand & then selectivly bred P1 animals. If all the grandchildren resemble all the grandparents you should have a P1 line.
it is possible to produce a line of magnificent true breeding animals which should not need to be outcrossed from two different P1 lines. It just takes a couple of decades at least 5 or 6 generations & thousands of culls. Who has the patience & determination?
it is possible to produce a line of magnificent true breeding animals which should not need to be outcrossed from two different P1 lines. It just takes a couple of decades at least 5 or 6 generations & thousands of culls. Who has the patience & determination?
Bell, the trick is learning the recipes for heritability. Once you have predictable & true breeding lines you can establish & repeat these recipes with 99% predictability, like my recipe for red deer. Only P1 type animals will let you do this with certainty.
Joined Apr 2014
1,245 Posts | 0+
Greensburg, IN
sharkey1064631457496802
Bell, the trick is learning the recipes for heritability. Once you have predictable & true breeding lines you can establish & repeat these recipes with 99% predictability, like my recipe for red deer. Only P1 type animals will let you do this with certainty.
I have been going about this the same way without understanding. It is nice to understand why.
Bell, the trick is learning the recipes for heritability. Once you have predictable & true breeding lines you can establish & repeat these recipes with 99% predictability, like my recipe for red deer. Only P1 type animals will let you do this with certainty.
I have been going about this the same way without understanding. It is nice to understand why.