What is the possibility?

Lets take a very simplified look look at what hybrid vigour really is (there is some gaps in this, its omly an analogy ok).

It's like introducing genes to each other for the first time. The best genes & those for best fitness & health are usually dominant (I like to think genetics is kind to us). They can only be introduced for the first time, one time. 

Sharkey,

You have a wealth of knowledge in this subject that really excites and tickles my feeble mind..... I also like the F4 animals you speak of and in today's time and market even finding a carefully bred whether it be intentional or accidental F4 animal is tough to do.... the F4 or F5 is the best place to start if you are willing to put in the time to get a true P1 animal! But with that said and the way that we track and dna animal's today it's also kind of easy to pick out that specific animal one might be looking for and since the animal's parents might not have been the best producer you might be able to buy that animal at a decent price and not all hyped up! I do have a question for you and would like to start a thread on Facebook also but let's say we have a nicely bred F4 or F5 tightly bred animal and we breed that back on the original P1 where does that take us?

Ezra

I believe the cross you have mentioned would be considered an F4b. Crossing back to the P1 line would decrease predictability of the desired traits you have been breeding for.

Finding an F3 "Ace" that has been patiently built with the desired traits would save you an incredible amount of merciless culling. Much more than DNA goes into breeding an incredible new pure bred F5. Hundreds of deer will have likely been culled along the way.

Yes, If you breed a F4 back to a P1 you have a F4b which still isn't true breeding.


Lets say you were trying to cross small P1 deer with big antlers on small bodies to big bodied  P1 deer with relatively small antlers to body size, to produce a line of large deer with large antlers to body size. Now after four generations you have just reintroduced one of the elements you were trying to erase as well as the element you are trying to strengthen. You have just brought back either small deer or small antlers & with no hybrid vigour now. That could mean another 5 generations without reaching the P1 now. 


 


For me, as a breeder, I'd rather have good P1 does than magnificent looking but unpredictable hybrids.


DNA is good for looking at the pedigree but just like looking at the pedigree on a piece of paper it tells me little about the conformation of the animal. I need to see it too to make sure it conforms, remember genetics is random in most cases. How often have we seen animals with great pedigree but all four legs are different length & dont match the body? Always look at the pedigree, but if the animal does not conform it must be culled, no matter how good it looks on paper.


 

 

Yes, getting a F3 "Ace" is like winning the lottery. There is still a long way to go to get his grand children to consistently look the same as him & produce their own grandchildren to the same phenotype. If you produce this foundation all sorts of wonderful recipies could be baked into magnificent looking "terminal" bucks just by using different P1 sires which express very different strengths. This is how you get the most out of hybrid vigour, but you must never polute your  P1 herd.

I wonder if there will come a time in the whitetail industry when we will be able to thumb through an auction book and define a consignment as a P1. The benefit of hybrid vigor could also help the deer industry make incredible strides if it is understood and properly utilized.

I am not afraid to admit that this is over my head. Interesting concept but can you take a step backwards and layout some basics . F1? F2? F3? P1? Start from the beginning please . Thanks

Kevin

Sharkey

Is the man to explain this from P1 to F1, F2, F3,F4,and F5.

I would also like to see someone from the deer industry in a Q&A session answer what whitetail deer being hyped are F1's. I understand this well enough to not answer. Sharkey is not a whitetail deer breeder so he is unfamiliar with what type of antler expression coincides with our pedigrees.

Here is a quote from a secret group that sums up why I have chosen to remain partially mum.

"I guess financially it's in the interests of those selling semen from impressive F1s to keep this under wraps. Unsuspecting or ignorant individuals are paying big dollars hoping to get similar results but when the offspring falls tragically short of the sire they are forced to go back for more hoping to get better luck next time. Unfortunately they don't realise the odds from a genetic perspective are heavily stacked against them. That said I can understand why those selling the semen would not want the buying public educated on the facts and would be critical of anyone who highlighted what is really going on"

Scott Kent is doing a presentation on genetics at the Nadefa conference in Tulsa next week. This would be a very thought provoking and engaging topic to discuss there. I would love for my Dad to sit in and listen if heterosis were the topic.

P1 or parental generation animals are those which breed true, its when the genes from the mother & father of that animal are the same & all the offspring will be the same phenotype as the parents & grandparents. P1 crosses, once the recipe is developed can be used to make predictable F1 hybrids with 99% certainty of the result.


F1, filial 1, is a "hybrid". It is the first generation from crossing two animals with different genes. This generation is usually magnificent because desirable traits are usually dominant. They usually have the best features from both sides. They are dissapointing sires or dams & will generally only produce offspring which comes within 75% of their best features in the very best of these.


F2 animals are from the cross of the F1 generation. Genetics starts to play roulette with things here, we no longer have the predictability that we had when we made the first cross, the best animals here will usually only have 75% at the most of the best features of the previous generation, some will display only 25%. It's a dissapointing generation unless you know what is going on.


F3 animals are from crossing F2 animals, hopefully we have had lots & only chosen the best F2's. Every possible genetic combination happens in this generation, I find it the most exciting. Hopefully here you have lots & lots of animals to choose from & select the animals closest to your objectives. This generation starts to pass down its genetics with a little bit of predictability.


F4 animals are the offspring from F3. They should be starting to look like their parents & your objectives if you have been making good choices. All their offspring will start to look more like them, but there will still be throwbacks which need culling.


F5 animals are the offspring of F4. They should be starting to look good & they will pass on their genetics with predictability if we have done our work well. Some F5's will still need to be culled & if we use the best, their offspring or the generation after should be considered P1animals again.

P1 generally unrelated having the same alleles for one or more traits ? Genotype is the basis for hopefully predicting offspring. A homozygous pair?

If I understand the filials , starting with F1 s you are breeding half brothers to half sisters? F2 you are breeding the next generation half brothers to half sisters? You are breeding your best F1 bucks to your F2 does , your best F1 bucks you your F3 does? Are you reintroducing the original buck P1 to breed F1s and F2s?

Kevin

I believe in each generation the animal that best expresses the desired trait is crossed with all the half siblings from the same generation. It is very tough to get an F2 or F3 to grow like an F1. Breeding back to the original P1 line is subtracting from the predictability of your F1,F2, F3, and so forth. The most efficient method of culling in each generation is another peice of this puzzle I could use some help with understanding too.

I will give an example of a P1 line.

Let's say I have built a typical P1 line for five plus generations. I have strictly avoided undesirable nontypical traits throughout each generation. My pure bred P1 doe line has been established. Thier offspring have expressed typical antlers when outcrossed to other typical P1 brood bucks within the same species. Now I am wanting to introduce a 100% pure subspecies from another typical P1 line. The F1 cross will be the result. This animal should express a "yuge" increase in the desired antler trait because of heterosis. The benefit of heterosis to a rapid increase in antler expression cannot happen again unless another completely different and 100% pure subspecies is introduced. A 100% pure subspecies will be difficult to find. A P1 with desired traits from a subspecies will be even more difficult to find. I hope that Sharkey will share some more insight on how to cull efficiently.

I cant tell you what traits are good or bad to cull out in whitetail, I work with  fallow, red deer, rusa ,sambar & chital (axis). However the basic principles are still the same for deer ,cows, dogs, cats,etc. 


Before we cross two different phenotypes we need to have a very clear objective in mind. I visualise that objective & write down & record exactly what I am trying to achieve. This is the "blueprint" I will cull towards. For some background, I also play around with the restoration of some sub species of deer. This means I have to undo hybridisation. For my Persian deer I look to places like the British Geographical Societies records & museum collections to get the clear picture of the phenotype or "blue print" which I am breeding back too, I cull to this. This also includes ecological traits such as the timing of the rut/fawning, I try to restore temperament or undo the domestication/taming that occurs even in zoos, as well as the phenotype.


It's going to be many years before we establish our new line (even with JIVET embryos, we still need to look at conformation not just pedigree). Place copies of your "blueprint" & objectives clearly in several places, near the crush, on the fridge, in the feed room, etc. This is to keep you focused, particularly with the F2 generation ,that is an emotional desert after the F1 generation. You must maintain the desire ,determination & discipline. It you doubt you can see it to the finish then stop at the F1 & make them all terminal.


I could bang on about producing several "identical" lines with several hundred animals in each generation carefully culled & selected. I don't think this is likely to happen & if it was, a forum is propably not the best place to discuss it anyway. What I'm guessing is practical is small herds of 50 or so deer in small private projects. If we have culled all our F1 & F2 animals along the way hopefully we have 50 F3 animals to select from (lots more would be nice). I would then pick the one buck that best conforms & several of the does which best conform to the phenotype we are seeking. I'd use him over all the does & tag & match up the offspring. I'd do this for a few years untill I could see which doe is giving us bucks which are the closest to the phenotype before trying to produce too many F5 (it'doesnt matter too much as you can always go back & do a big cull, but there are other opportunity costs involved like feed & space). Once I had established which of the does were dropping the best fawns, I would promote her daughters & they would be the dams of the F5 generation. The best F4 buck from this generation is used as the sire.

 

I'm trying to keep this simple & use analogies which make it easier for us to understand (appologies if I'm not explaining it well).


The buck "Ace" has been used as an example already & by doing a bit of research around his lineage & offspring we can "guess" he was an F3. The "how too" I would have used on this buck would have been to breed him to his siblings. Establish which one of those does produced the best buck & choose the best buck from this generation & use him over that best does doe fawns. Repeat the above for another generation. We then would have the start of a P1 line of deer which would be very close to "Ace" & be 99% predictable in their pass down.

So all this in turn is pretty much what many of us do now...Line Breeding? Not In-Breeding!

Bell1064801457556853



Sharkey

Is the man to explain this from P1 to F1, F2, F3,F4,and F5.

I would also like to see someone from the deer industry in a Q&A session answer what whitetail deer being hyped are F1's. I understand this well enough to not answer. Sharkey is not a whitetail deer breeder so he is unfamiliar with what type of antler expression coincides with our pedigrees.

Here is a quote from a secret group that sums up why I have chosen to remain partially mum.

"I guess financially it's in the interests of those selling semen from impressive F1s to keep this under wraps. Unsuspecting or ignorant individuals are paying big dollars hoping to get similar results but when the offspring falls tragically short of the sire they are forced to go back for more hoping to get better luck next time. Unfortunately they don't realise the odds from a genetic perspective are heavily stacked against them. That said I can understand why those selling the semen would not want the buying public educated on the facts and would be critical of anyone who highlighted what is really going on"




One of the biggest reasons i do not breed to paper. I know many who spent 25 grand on straws to make females from some sons only to find out 3-4 years later that they do not produce and they give the does away. There are hot bucks in todays industry that throw out son after son with any cross but then look at the female line of that buck and most crosses do not produce.


 


I cant tell you how many people i have heard say...I wish i would have kept my old Patrick does and didnt get ate up in the hype. Some of us got lucky and grabbed those old does. lol  Its a vicious circle!

Line breeding is what we do to maintain & improve our P1 line. Crossing two genetically different P1 animals to produce F1 hybrids, isn't line breeding. Line breeding IMO can only start after the F5 or F6 generation (this is because their genetic passdown is still too random). 

Four Seasons Whitetails1064891457570862


One of the biggest reasons i do not breed to paper. I know many who spent 25 grand on straws to make females from some sons only to find out 3-4 years later that they do not produce and they give the does away. There are hot bucks in todays industry that throw out son after son with any cross but then look at the female line of that buck and most crosses do not produce.


I cant tell you how many people i have heard say...I wish i would have kept my old Patrick does and didnt get ate up in the hype. Some of us got lucky and grabbed those old does. lol Its a vicious circle!Mike

Perhaps some of these bucks were aimlessly stacked F1's and the does are their womb mates?