What is the possibility?

We run 120lbs garlic per ton from April to September but we do it for ticks. We are very fortunate to not have EHD yet in northern Minnesota. We have visited farms south and west and sure seen it in the wild. We sure don't want it.

Thanks Bell and Arrowed1 for the info.

I just spent the last hour reading and re-reading this thread and trying to absorb it.  What percentage of deer farmers here in USA thoroughly understand this genetic stuff?  l will readily admit it's way over my head at this point.  In my defense I just got my first deer 3 days ago.  While this thread is very enlightening is there somewhere I can go to study more?  Where do you go to get expert knowledge and teaching on this subject?

DarylGM1065171457832031

I just spent the last hour reading and re-reading this thread and trying to absorb it.  What percentage of deer farmers here in USA thoroughly understand this genetic stuff?  l will readily admit it's way over my head at this point.  In my defense I just got my first deer 3 days ago.  While this thread is very enlightening is there somewhere I can go to study more?  Where do you go to get expert knowledge and teaching on this subject?
“The Explanation of Hybrid Vigor�, W.E. Castle. www.pnas.org/content/12/1/16/short

“Veterinarians Question Validity of Hybrid Vigor in Wake of Study� Nov 7,2013 www.news.vin.com/doc/?id=6005608

“Why Use Brahman (Hybrid Vigor)� www.facebook.com/v8ranch/

“Brahman Beefs Up Profits in Texas, Study Finds� Jul 20/2014 http://beefproducer.com/story-brahman-beefs-profits-texas-study-finds-10-115314-printversion

“Crossbreeding gets you More than just Hybrid Vigor,� Burt Rutherford. March 19, 2015 http://beefmagazine.com/print/cattle-genetics/crossbreeding-gets-you-more-just-hybrid-vigor

“Heterosis� https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis

“Keep Trophy Records Honest: Identifying Whitetail/Mule Deer Hybrids� Jim Heffelfinger, Fair Chase 2012 pg 66-70

Abstract (research) http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/265/1395/489

“North American White-tailed Deer: Distribution and Subspecies�, Whitetails Unlimited, Sturgeon Bay, WI http://www.whitetailsunlimited.com/resources/educational-booklets/bk_nadeer/flipviewerxpress.html

As anyone who has followed me over the past 21 years knows I have focused a lot on line breeding. However I feel it is important to let newer folks know you don't have to line breed to grow big deer. I used line breeding to increase predictability in my offspring and also to increase value in certain markets. However you don't have to know this stuff to be a success either. I just wanted to say this so folks don't get discouraged and feel like they are missing the boat.

It is similar to the whole feed topic years ago. Back in the day folks often thought there was some feed trick to growing big bucks. And they got discouraged when they couldn't figure it out for their own herd.

Knowledge is power. Understanding genetic theory can make a big difference financially in a breeders success. How many folks today are investing heavily in F1 hybrid crosses? Do you expect these folks to succeed?

Many people are making great bucks without even looking at paper. You breed with deer you like the looks of and 9 times out of 10 you will still grow great deer. You might not be able to say..Oh look we has Blue ??? is this pedigree 9 times.  More people lose so much money paying for paper and then get nothing but shooter price out of their animals, We all have been there and have grown to know real quick. 

Four Seasons Whitetails1065211457904756


Many people are making great bucks without even looking at paper. You breed with deer you like the looks of and 9 times out of 10 you will still grow great deer. You might not be able to say..Oh look we has Blue ??? is this pedigree 9 times. More people lose so much money paying for paper and then get nothing but shooter price out of their animals, We all have been there and have grown to know real quick.
The measurable statistical evidence behind genetic theory does not support breeding F1 hybrids unless a breeder is willing to mercilessly cull offspring. Semen from F1 hybrids is one of the hottest "flavors of the day" currently in our industry. Some folks are in for a very rude awakening. The majority of the F1 offspring are not going to have anything close to equal antler expression of the parents. Heterosis is being used to create an unrealistic hope in the minds of unsuspecting stackers. This false hope is a great economic windfall for those hyping semen from F1 hybrids in the short term but could be devastating to our industry long term.

It needs to be considered that stacking on genetics from different lines without taking them through the entire process to a new P1 line is also stacking the bad recessive genes. We can't see these recessive genes because of hybrid vigour but they are there. They will appear as the effect of hybrid vigour stops. The only way to remove the recessive genes is by going down the system discussed in this thread. We must let the recessive genes appear so we can cull them out. Maybe you have an unlimited supply of unrelated genetics in the whitetail industry & "stacking" can go on forever. Maybe??

You guys make it sound like you have a lifetime to figure all these numbers out?  We are in the deer selling business and with that said mostly bucks and with that said they are dead at 2 years old. For a guy to make a living on his animals i sure would not point them in the direction you guys are talking. Cool Yes but remember there is a buck for every hunter and you need diversity to be able to make different deer for different hunters.


 


I believe making the same deer over and over would get a tad old..Quick  For me anyways.

How people choose to use this information is up to them. All that we have been discussing is the basics of genetics. At the very least it should help people to make better choices when considering investing in & introducing new genetics into their deer in the future. Hopefully it also helps with culling, particularly in which filial generation to be hard & which one to cut a bit of slack.

So if I have a breeder buck, his mom, and two full sisters (full but not womb mates), how would I make a P1 line?

What filial generation is the dam? Is she a P1, F1 etc. Was the buck used over her to produce your buck & his sisters from the same line as the doe? Was he a P1 from another line, or an F1, F2 etc?

This is a great bit of information , whether you use it or not. Really anxious to see now that we are in the stage of generating F4 with 2 whitetail groups and F3 with our mule deer. Our hybrid mule deer are generating some great antler growth as F1s. What is the thought on bringing one of those back as a P1 with anew group of P1 does ?

The only way the hybrid line can become P1 is by going through the entire five or six generations. Using a F1 over a new line does not mean he is a P1. He always an F1, & is also now carrying two sets of recessive genes which are going to express themselves in his children & grandchildren, however breeding an F1 back to a new P1 line will give you the hybrid vigour the same as a F1, but in the children & grand children you have the recessive genes from three different lines to sort through. I wouldn't breed the F1 back to new P1 animals unless I had a very good reason, three groups of recessive genes & at least one more generation till reaching P1, is it worth it? I'd just put this investment into having as many F3 animals on the ground in their generation to select from, if you don't have what you want use the F2 again & again untill you get the animals you are happy with. You must realise that the F3 is where you get to be a breeder more than any other generation. Anyone can cross P1animals & get magnificent F1 hybrids. It takes more to produce a new true breeding phenotype. A mule deer/whitetail cross is good for this discussion. What are your objectives for making the cross in the first place?

Sharkey,

Mule deer are so hard to come buy. Several years ago we began breeding whitetail does to mule deer bucks to achieve more breeding stock. The resulting doe fawns when bred back to mule deer bucks of course became 3/4 mule deer and then 7/8 mule deer. The result was a very mule deer looking animal with great antlers on the bucks and much healthier than the pure mule deer we started with. A few years ago we started introducing by AI , larger pure mule deer genetic from semen drawn from postmortem Hunter harvests. We kept this going by re breeding the offspring F1? And the F1 best buck yearling to the F2? Does and the best F2 to the F3 does..etc ..we are growing very large body mule deer with 30" plus frames at 2 years old, the scores are starting to approach200" at 2. We have a lapse in our pure mule deer as 2 years ago we had 19 fawns born , all does, not a single buck to judge antler growth. In the reverse that year we had 26 hybrids born and 19 of those buck fawns. Last year was closer to 50% gender split so this years antler growth should tell us a lot. Something must have worked as we started raising mule deer from a zoo herd of 6 does and a 7 year old buck that scored 120" and was 19" wide at best.

Why are you breeding F2 bucks to F3 does? Why go back a generation unless you have no other option? By using F2 over F3 you really only produce F2 type animals not F3. Every time you introduce bucks & does from previous generation you are adding at least one more generation till you get a true breeding phenotype.. Use F1 over F1 then F2 over F2, F3 over F3. Are your F4's really just F2 type animals because you haven't let the recessive genes express in a true F3 & F4 generation? The fastest way to cull out the recessive genes is to breed the same filial generation together. You can't cull more than 25% of the recessive genes in the F2 but if you put a F1 over the F2 it will not let you get to F3 because the way that genes express, won't be as random as a F2 x F2. Putting a F2 over a F3 won't let you see the 75% of recessive genes we would typically like to cull out in this generation & you won't have an F4 from that breeding. Going back is literally going backwards if your aim is a new true breeding phenotype.

The F3 generation is so important because it is where every single possible combination of the genes can occur. If we have introduced a third P1 line before this generation we are going to need three times more animals on the ground in this generation than if we just used two P1 lines. There are going to be the most horrible looking deer in this generation. That's ok because this is where we cull about 75% of those genes out. There will also be great looking deer here, we use these together ( not with any other generation, just F3 x F3) to produce the F4 & they will breed animals which look very similar to themselves. It just doesn't work anywhere near as well when we don't follow the rules. The F2 generation is IMO the hardest, they are never great , they can not come closer than 75% of the best features from the first cross or F1 generation, but we have to push ahead & breed the best of this dissapointing generation to each other. I don't know of any better way. Hopefully the patern & pathway through the usually random distribution of genes is becoming clearer? If we fiddle with the rules it doesn't give us a short cut the inverse applies. If we start to breed outside phenotypes & after we make the first cross of two different lines (produce F1 hybrid) hybrid vigour ceases & genetics also becomes random as recessive genes start to combine & express. We have been discussing the straightest & shortest pathway that has been navigated for us by some very clever folk over the last century to cull out the unwanted genes & produce a new true breeding line. There are no short cuts to the rules, yes there are options but these will considerably lengthen & increase the complexity of the process.

We have been breeding a year to the rears on our mule deer bucks as we couldn't get our buck fawns to breed so we backed them up with yearlings breeding the mule deer does fawns .We probably should have caught them back up . Technically we are always a year to the rears. That would make this year our true F3 year. Would we be better off catching them up and breeding F3 to F3 and next year F4 to F4? Sounds like a stupid question at this point. The. Bucks are very easy to cull but we never cull a doe. We have been bringing them back in our AI postmortem semen and growing up great shooters at 3 years. I guess we are hoping to generate a new P1 through both the pure program and the hybrid program and quit chasing postmortem semen. It is getting very difficult and expensive to hunt where big mule deer live. The last 4 semen draws came from bucks harvested by other hunters. We had to kind of pioneer our own way as not too many mule deer breeders out there. Most of those out there are experiencing varying results. Mule deer are born looking for a new way to die it seems.

Good questions Kevin. It is very difficult to get enough F1 siblings by AI. It would be much easier if a buck from the subspecies were on site pasture breeding. That is why I am only willing to attempt using heterosis as a means to advance certain traits in my herd on a small scale. I would like to have a 100% pure Texas subspecies P1 typical buck at our farm pasture breeding. Regulations prohibit us from moving a 100% pure bred P1 subspecies buck interstate into Indiana. I cannot afford to buy 20 straws of semen from the P1 buck that I need to use.