We get our best results in the F2 & F3 generations. Not breeding these generations to their own generations stops us from having confidence in our decisions. The only way to have confidence in using animals, is by knowing their filial generation & what happens differently in each generation. F2 animals & F3 generations express their genes differently to each other. Best not to mix up the generations in the ones you want to move to the next filial generation with.
What is the possibility?
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Four or five does in the F1 & only one F1 buck, might give you 4 doe fawns & four bucks in the F2 if they twin. These can be bred over several years until you have enough F2s to get as many F3 animals on the ground as you can carry. The F3s can also be bred several times until you get your ace. Starting with only a couple of P1 straws only sets you back in time not the ultimate result if you are patient. Just make sure you only breed an animal to its own generation for the fastest results.
Joined Apr 2014
1,245 Posts | 0+
Greensburg, IN
Sharkey
I want to research heterosis and typical antler expression in whitetail deer. We have built a typical P1 line and carefully avoided certain nontypical traits for ten generations in select does within our 100% pure northern herd. How many F1 hybrid siblings do you think we would need to get a decent F2 line established? I am trying to do more research before purchasing more semen or reaching out to a disciplined Texas breeder willing to pursue the same type of research with the Texas subspecies as the maternal side.
I want to research heterosis and typical antler expression in whitetail deer. We have built a typical P1 line and carefully avoided certain nontypical traits for ten generations in select does within our 100% pure northern herd. How many F1 hybrid siblings do you think we would need to get a decent F2 line established? I am trying to do more research before purchasing more semen or reaching out to a disciplined Texas breeder willing to pursue the same type of research with the Texas subspecies as the maternal side.
If you had half a dozen does to start with that would be enough. Particularly if you are patient & can breed the F1's for a couple of years untill you have another ok buck & half a dozen does which come close to 75% of the traits you are seeking. You can get rid of all the F1 deer then. When you get enough F3 on the ground ( hopefully a couple of aces) you can get rid of the F2. This will minimise the expense or opportunity costs. More deer in each generation is always better, but at what expense?
Joined Apr 2014
1,245 Posts | 0+
Greensburg, IN
Sharkey
I meant to ask that. Do you breed the same F1 buck and F1 siblings for two generations in order to make certain the proper culls are made? Is it best too switch to a different F1 brood buck from the same generation to breed the same F1siblings in order to insure proper culls are made? At what age would you cull if the trait being observed is typical antler expression? It is encouraging to hear that we can get by with just six does. I can buy that much semen without asking a Texas breeder to participate.
I meant to ask that. Do you breed the same F1 buck and F1 siblings for two generations in order to make certain the proper culls are made? Is it best too switch to a different F1 brood buck from the same generation to breed the same F1siblings in order to insure proper culls are made? At what age would you cull if the trait being observed is typical antler expression? It is encouraging to hear that we can get by with just six does. I can buy that much semen without asking a Texas breeder to participate.
The reason to breed any generation for two or more years is to get enough good animals in the next generation to go on. It is also nice to have a look at the older ones to see & make the best choices. There won't be any culls in the F1 because they will all be good. The recessive genes don't start to appear until F2. F1 can be small.
Joined Apr 2014
1,245 Posts | 0+
Greensburg, IN
I am going to try and buy enough semen from the same 100% pure Texas typical P1 to breed 10 of our northern P1 typical does. I am interested in two brood bucks. My preference would be to trade semen straws with a Texas breeder willing to attempt the same research. I am very skeptical of trading because I do not know what typicals are 100% pure from the Texas subspecies. A pile of northern deer were taken to Texas 20 years ago. I would not let my F1 hybrids enter the breeder market or ever collect semen on a F1 brood buck if a Texas breeder were willing to work with me. All F1 offspring will be culled into the preserve here after a F2 generation is established.
Bell
Our whitetail interests are very similar. Typical Typical Typical. We have 3 distinctly different P1 groups that we are well along the way except for a step backwards in 2 groups wasting a year breeding F1 to F2s ,etc .fortunately we haven't culled out that deep in those groups and will have to take a step backwards. Our Patron group however is pure through F3 with F4s hitting the ground this spring so we are getting close. This has been one of the more educational discussions on here in a while. Thought there would be more breeders chiming in.
Our whitetail interests are very similar. Typical Typical Typical. We have 3 distinctly different P1 groups that we are well along the way except for a step backwards in 2 groups wasting a year breeding F1 to F2s ,etc .fortunately we haven't culled out that deep in those groups and will have to take a step backwards. Our Patron group however is pure through F3 with F4s hitting the ground this spring so we are getting close. This has been one of the more educational discussions on here in a while. Thought there would be more breeders chiming in.
Im still a little lost here understand most of the f-2 f-3 f-4 and so on but what is a true p-1 and can you give some examples
Thanks Brad
Thanks Brad
Joined Apr 2014
1,245 Posts | 0+
Greensburg, IN
Sinoquipe Whitetails1066241458615704
Im still a little lost here understand most of the f-2 f-3 f-4 and so on but what is a true p-1 and can you give some examples
Thanks BradYou have ask a great question. Due to the popularity of this topic my guess is we will soon see folks advertising and incorrectly claiming P1's, F2's, F's, and etc.
IMO
Brood bucks with dominant genes have been stacked throughout the industry. Has anyone really bred up a P1 line? Line breeding does not create a P1 line or animal by itself. The breeder must have a defined goal. It must be evident that the breeder is breeding for certain traits while avoiding undesirable traits for at least five generations. There are hybrid crosses in the industry. They are not the result of a breeder crossing 2 different P1 lines.
Chris Timmons has built a P1 line in Texas. It is easy to observe that he has bred for distinct traits while avoiding unwanted traits in every generation for more than five years.
We have taken several of the most typical bucks from the Patrick line and have bred with them for more than five generations. We have also strictly avoided introducing certain nontypical traits from the Patrick bloodline.Typical offspring born after the fifth generation could be labeled as P1. It would not be because they were line bred from Patrick bloodlines. It is because they were line bred to bucks with typical antler expression.
If a breeder were to breed whitetail genetics that looked like goats for five generations, would this would be a P1 line? Why would we introduce a whitetail line bred to look like unicorns to advance the size and predictably of our whitetail with goat antler traits?
Im still a little lost here understand most of the f-2 f-3 f-4 and so on but what is a true p-1 and can you give some examples
Thanks BradYou have ask a great question. Due to the popularity of this topic my guess is we will soon see folks advertising and incorrectly claiming P1's, F2's, F's, and etc.
IMO
Brood bucks with dominant genes have been stacked throughout the industry. Has anyone really bred up a P1 line? Line breeding does not create a P1 line or animal by itself. The breeder must have a defined goal. It must be evident that the breeder is breeding for certain traits while avoiding undesirable traits for at least five generations. There are hybrid crosses in the industry. They are not the result of a breeder crossing 2 different P1 lines.
Chris Timmons has built a P1 line in Texas. It is easy to observe that he has bred for distinct traits while avoiding unwanted traits in every generation for more than five years.
We have taken several of the most typical bucks from the Patrick line and have bred with them for more than five generations. We have also strictly avoided introducing certain nontypical traits from the Patrick bloodline.Typical offspring born after the fifth generation could be labeled as P1. It would not be because they were line bred from Patrick bloodlines. It is because they were line bred to bucks with typical antler expression.
If a breeder were to breed whitetail genetics that looked like goats for five generations, would this would be a P1 line? Why would we introduce a whitetail line bred to look like unicorns to advance the size and predictably of our whitetail with goat antler traits?
Bell
Our P1 definition really is established by common appearance or phenotype of desired traits. P1 parents which clearly display homozygous desirable traits. The traits we desire are wide and typical if it can be simplified. We looked for multiple generations of proven offspring to arrive at most recent P1 combinations.
Group 1 started with a buck named Twister that was build through Sundance , High Roller , Rolex lineage over the top of Hydro Ax , PAGeronimo , Sundance does.
Group 2 starts with a buck named T-bone that was built through Patron , Tonto , Maxbo over the top of Maxbo Grand , Matrix , Noble
Does
I don't know that because we say so is reason to label these groups P1 but it does meet the definition.
I agree , it would be interesting to see if any deer farmers offer deer as F1s or F2s or ? It appears a lot of what's out there and a lot of the better bucks coming out of our ranch are F1s . Haven't seen much antler growth difference yet in the F2s. They definitely aren't inferior. Should be a lot of substance in this years antler growth as we grow out 2 yr old F3 s and yearling F4s.
Our P1 definition really is established by common appearance or phenotype of desired traits. P1 parents which clearly display homozygous desirable traits. The traits we desire are wide and typical if it can be simplified. We looked for multiple generations of proven offspring to arrive at most recent P1 combinations.
Group 1 started with a buck named Twister that was build through Sundance , High Roller , Rolex lineage over the top of Hydro Ax , PAGeronimo , Sundance does.
Group 2 starts with a buck named T-bone that was built through Patron , Tonto , Maxbo over the top of Maxbo Grand , Matrix , Noble
Does
I don't know that because we say so is reason to label these groups P1 but it does meet the definition.
I agree , it would be interesting to see if any deer farmers offer deer as F1s or F2s or ? It appears a lot of what's out there and a lot of the better bucks coming out of our ranch are F1s . Haven't seen much antler growth difference yet in the F2s. They definitely aren't inferior. Should be a lot of substance in this years antler growth as we grow out 2 yr old F3 s and yearling F4s.
Joined Apr 2014
1,245 Posts | 0+
Greensburg, IN
Kevin,
Do you expect all of the nontypical recessive genes in Highroller, PA Geronimo,, Tonto, Matrix, Maxbo and etc not too emerge and require an incredible amount of culling in the F2 and especially F3 generation if typical predictability is the goal? Look closely at the old "Field of Dreams" herd's Desi and Redoy Mustang for example. This herd originates from Penn State's breeding herd. It is evident that Pa Geronimo has a lot of non typical recessive genes in his background. He was a dominant buck and produced both nontypical and typical antler inches. There is also a definable row of nontypical points that will surface up the front of virtually every Maxbo offspring's G1's at maturity. Again go back and dig into the Bert Straw line. The points often show themselves as multiple G1's as the buck ages. Allstar's dam was a Blazer/Pepsi doe. Blazer's drops will likely surface in the F2 or F3 generation as they did with Avalanche. That is one reason that I have a hard time saying that I have a P1. Sorry for all the edits. I can hardly see my little phone screen.
Do you expect all of the nontypical recessive genes in Highroller, PA Geronimo,, Tonto, Matrix, Maxbo and etc not too emerge and require an incredible amount of culling in the F2 and especially F3 generation if typical predictability is the goal? Look closely at the old "Field of Dreams" herd's Desi and Redoy Mustang for example. This herd originates from Penn State's breeding herd. It is evident that Pa Geronimo has a lot of non typical recessive genes in his background. He was a dominant buck and produced both nontypical and typical antler inches. There is also a definable row of nontypical points that will surface up the front of virtually every Maxbo offspring's G1's at maturity. Again go back and dig into the Bert Straw line. The points often show themselves as multiple G1's as the buck ages. Allstar's dam was a Blazer/Pepsi doe. Blazer's drops will likely surface in the F2 or F3 generation as they did with Avalanche. That is one reason that I have a hard time saying that I have a P1. Sorry for all the edits. I can hardly see my little phone screen.
This is interesting that we have now gone full circle. Look at the first page of posts in this thread.
With respect to our own typical desires , the P1 sires and dams were selected more for their current appearance and appearance of siblings rather than tracing back 4 ,5 ,or even 6 generations of another breeders work "stacking " or "line breeding". I wish I could post a picture or two. I just picked up a shed today from an F1 from our Noble genetic that is a perfect 124-6/8" antler with a single brow and a 32-1/2" beam. There is a 3" drop tine and less than 4" of extras. The other side still on his head is a mirror image . He is the biggest of 6 F1s but they are all very typical now 3 year olds. We harvested an F2 on the preserve this year that netted 218" of a gross 223" frame as a 5x5 typical . We also harvested an F1 from our Patron side that at 3 yrs old grossed 253" netted 234" as a typical but we are seeing 3 and 4 blade brows carrying through in our F1 and F2. I can't explain it all but if F4 and F 5 stay typical and even as consistent we have made it all worth the while. I understand what you are saying about the non typicals in our background but it doesn't appear to be dominant enough to surface inspite of many does with 3 or 4 generations ofPAGeronimo and another group with 4 generations of Rolex.
With respect to our own typical desires , the P1 sires and dams were selected more for their current appearance and appearance of siblings rather than tracing back 4 ,5 ,or even 6 generations of another breeders work "stacking " or "line breeding". I wish I could post a picture or two. I just picked up a shed today from an F1 from our Noble genetic that is a perfect 124-6/8" antler with a single brow and a 32-1/2" beam. There is a 3" drop tine and less than 4" of extras. The other side still on his head is a mirror image . He is the biggest of 6 F1s but they are all very typical now 3 year olds. We harvested an F2 on the preserve this year that netted 218" of a gross 223" frame as a 5x5 typical . We also harvested an F1 from our Patron side that at 3 yrs old grossed 253" netted 234" as a typical but we are seeing 3 and 4 blade brows carrying through in our F1 and F2. I can't explain it all but if F4 and F 5 stay typical and even as consistent we have made it all worth the while. I understand what you are saying about the non typicals in our background but it doesn't appear to be dominant enough to surface inspite of many does with 3 or 4 generations ofPAGeronimo and another group with 4 generations of Rolex.