Average shooter prices

Reed68 if you are giving your deer away at those prices, then you should get out of the deer business completly this year. Eat your does, its easy. Come next year at this time you will be on here again complaining about prices all over again just as you did last year. If your selling them dirt bag cheap now, you will be forced to do it again next year. The hunting preserves appreciate failures in the breeding business so they can buy stock at very low prices. Face it, you would of never sold your stock for what you wanted, BUT, since you got on this forum and complained, the vultures stepped in and bought your bucks dirt cheap. By you staying in the biz for another year, your only hurting yourself and others who want to continue in this business and your only lining the pockets of the preserves, that is what they want, its a f-----g no brainer.

Reed68 if you are giving your deer away at those prices, then you should get out of the deer business completly this year. Eat your does, its easy. Come next year at this time you will be on here again complaining about prices all over again just as you did last year. If your selling them dirt bag cheap now, you will be forced to do it again next year. The hunting preserves appreciate failures in the breeding business so they can buy stock at very low prices. Face it, you would of never sold your stock for what you wanted, BUT, since you got on this forum and complained, the vultures stepped in and bought your bucks dirt cheap. By you staying in the biz for another year, your only hurting yourself and others who want to continue in this business and your only lining the pockets of the preserves, that is what they want, its a f-----g no brainer.

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Wow that's brutal. The situation is bad, but I don't think you can blame anyone on here for it. It's more or less a product of the current economical crisis and the only ones to really blame are our elected officials.

See, now this is why don't like the internet....... I get online, look at some nice deer and go on my way.... but not after reading post 101.



I am a preserve owner and breeder, as I believe Tim is too.



Let me say one thing to saline creek before I go any further, what jay does with his deer AINT NONE OF YOUR D&%N BUSINESS.



Unless you've been reading on here, which I'm sure isnt the whole story, or know him personally you have no clue what he's going through or what bills he has to pay. And in case you havent noticed the market is evening out. Pretty soon a 170 is going to be a 170 and its going to bring the same money in every state unless theres an abundance of breeders there with nowhere to send em. Why is this? Because its too easy for a hunter to get on a plane and go to a state that sells 170 class hunts for $3000.00. So if I'm watching my hunters leave to go somewhere else I'm going to do two things, lower my price and find cheaper deer. If I have to look longer and harder or bite my nails and wait til the last minute to buy em thats what I'll do. Don't blame the preserves for your situation, you chose to do it and you put yourself in the position your in, be accountable for it or to me you might as well be a democrat.



As far as lining the preserves pockets, do I really need to write lol or did everybody just do that? I guarantee you the preserves are selling less than 50% of their hunts at advertised price. I know I am and a lot more that are too. Have you checked the cost of advertising in TTHA magazine? I DARE you to check the cost of a half page ad in Outdoor life, any game and fish mag, or even buckmasters..... yeah preserves are bringing money in but its going right back out the door. I'll by all my stockers from anyone that agrees to go in half on a full page ad in any of those three magazines.



Do I need to mention the cost of feed, food, etc.. just to host a 3 day 1 on 1 guided hunt for 3 guys over a weekend costs me over $3000.00.





So lets say I pay $3000.00 for a 170 here in Texas, I get lucky and sell it for an advertised price of $7750. Well it cost me $100 to dart him, $300 to go get him, then I put out a $400 ton of protein feed that the farmer was feeding him so he'd stay alive the month til my hunter got here. Bill Bob coming in to kill him is an eater, so my $400 a hunt cook has to buy $200 of groceries to feed Billy Bob and his $500 a hunt guide that spends $150 in gas going to pick up Billy Bob at the airport and hauling his butt around the ranch before taking him back. After the crew leaves for the weekend I have to pay my cleaning lady, wife, $100 to come in and clean up the mess they made. So after they leave I have $2600 to make two truck payments, 2 powerbills(my house and lodge), 4 cell phone bills, a phone bill, internet bill, health insurance(its mandatory now in case you didnt know), fuel, feed, advertising, do I need to go on cause I really have other things to do....



Say I do 20 hunts a year, thats $52,000 to raise a family and run a business. Thats not enough but its what most of us have to deal with....and quite frankly.... ITS NONE OF YOUR D%$N BUSINESS what I do or how I do it or what I sell or buy my deer for. You have a price you need and I have a price I need to pay and if they dont work I'll go somewhere else and find what I need. But when I hear that you sold your deer for less than what you advertised them for it wont bother me..... BECAUSE ITS NONE OF MY D$%N BUSINESS.....

Wow someone from a preserve finaly gave a price 3000 for a 170 class. That seems like a good price. Way more than they are bringing at auction. Does anyone else have any prices.

Virgil, thats part of my point, thats the going price here in Texas for a 170. Just 4 years ago a 3 year old 170 shooter was bringing $5-7,000 and selling to the hunter at 10-12,000. The price is going down here because our end user, hunters, are going elswhere for cheaper hunts. I have 3 regulars that are going out of state to hunt 170s for $3000 this year, which is what theyre selling for here. I think it'll go down some more here in Texas before it levels off.......



The question is whether or not northern prices will come up any to meet Texas prices without smaller breeders having to go out of business up there to create a shortage of animals in order to get those prices back up.



Seems to me the top 3% of animals will be breeders, the rest are end user oriented no matter what kind of expense you have in them right now. Until there's a shortage of 160-200 class animals the prices will continue to decline. Just my opinion.

The northern market is now starting to effect the closed border states as Texas and Alabama.. It is so flooded up north that they are giving their deer away..Just imagine if you were in a northern state with closed borders,then the preserves buy from breeders in that state versus all of the 1000's of breeders outside of the state..All breeders need to stick together on their prices and keep the average..But also if you support the breeders in your state ,if the borders were closed,I think it would be a win win for all..The prices would still be good and all would be happy..If the market keeps getting flooded it won't be long before the breeders in the north will be eating their 200" bucks too...Just my 2 cents

richie0033 said:

The northern market is now starting to effect the closed border states as Texas and Alabama.. It is so flooded up north that they are giving their deer away..Just imagine if you were in a northern state with closed borders,then the preserves buy from breeders in that state versus all of the 1000's of breeders outside of the state..All breeders need to stick together on their prices and keep the average..But also if you support the breeders in your state ,if the borders were closed,I think it would be a win win for all..The prices would still be good and all would be happy..If the market keeps getting flooded it won't be long before the breeders in the north will be eating their 200" bucks too...Just my 2 cents

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how many ranches raise their own shooters?

How many don't?

I bet most ranches raise their own. Then might have to buy a few.

Don't worry Alabama will be that way before long. The prices are already coming down. Every hunting preserve in Alabama raises deer also, so it won't be long before the preserves are naming their price here.

People need to discorage new guys from getting in the business. If you tell a new guy the truth most will be a little more cautiuos about getting in. I tell them how it is and let them make their choice based on the truth.

In this part of the world,in states were game reservers are legal.The breeder usually recieves half of the trophy fee.

If the market is up or down its half each,risk shared.No ill feelings.

Trophy fee is not guiding,tresspass fees,catering,etc.

As to who transports & takes that risk?Who in the equasion wants to buy or sell the most?

I dream of the prices you are still getting & your deer have twins & are trophys at three.

How well do whitetail do on grass & browse?

As for prices Ive just bought 35 red deer I didn't want, six 5yo stags (all double six or better),14 filled hinds,balance are weaners & yearlings.

Forty dollars each,just so they wouldn't open the gates to the national park beside their farm & give our industry bad press.

Yes,I'll make money even at 150c kg (70c lb)but it shows how lean you have to become to survive.

Thankfull deer eat grass.

Cheers Sharkey

PS.

In a free market the market decides.

It's not for anyone to tell others how much for, or how many they sould sell.

Work togeather to strengthen the demand for your product,because the market will decide the price.

Spot On Steven, I've said it over and over, if it's so lucrative running a preserve then go to the bank, borrow a couple million to get your preserve started and then another million later to finish it. It's just as easy as that, NOW your a rich preserve owner. If it was so easy and lucrative everyone would do it and be succcessful at it. Now that we've got it pretty much figured out to a science, raising the deer is the easiest part. Worrying your a$$ off wondering if the season coming up is going to bring in enough clients to make enough to pay the bills on the bank note, preserve land, lodge, BUCKS, hired help, etc. is the hard part. I've run a bird and free range deer hunting operation for 15 years and spend over 100 days in a row from sunrise to midnight keeping things organized so every group has a good time. Everyone always says, all you have to do is go hunting everyday, Sorry but it's not anything like going out with friends on a free hunt with nothing to loose(reputation, clients, lives of clients in a hunting accident).During the year I see money comming in and like Steven said, when it's all over, you barely have anything left. Raising deer isn't cheap and running a preserve isn't either, so many people figure you buy a 200 inch buck for $4,500 and turn around and sell it for $10,000 if your lucky and you just made an easy $5,500. It doesn't work quite that easy, I wish it did. Free markets is what makes this country great, the ones who work the hardest promoting will usually succeed. Anyone can cash flow a buisiness on paper with a full sale order at full price but when it comes down to it, free market economy's have ups and downs, nothing comes easy. If you can't find a buyer for your product, either your not making the product people want, your price is too high compared to someone elses(probably isn't too high too you) or your not promoting what you have in a good light so people will want to buy it. If someone keeps complaining over and over no one will buy my bucks, I'm thinking your price is not competative or your bucks aren't what people want. I'm probably not even going to look at them because you've already told me no one wants to buy them so I'm assuming there is a reason for that. No matter how bad it gets you have to stay positive, it will show to your customers and that will often times make the difference between a sale or no sale. I would rather buy from someone who I like to deal with beacause they are a positive person then deal with someone I can't stand even if they do have a lower price. It's like anything in buisiness, if there is money to be made fairly easy, everyone will try it and then you end up with what you have now, too many bucks for the amount of hunters. The preserve owners who raise there own deer will be the ones who survive the storm better because they at least have somewhat of an outlet to get rid of the deer they are feeding, may not be for what they have advertised and most likely isn't but it's better then the price of the guy who just raises them and completely relys on what a preserve is willing to offer. The cattle industry is the same way, all the packing company's feed out there own cattle in feedlots, this way they can control the price, they know sooner or later you WILL HAVE TO sell your fat cattle because they are done and will just cost you more money to keep them, until then they kill there own to fill in the demand and keep the prices down at the farm but the supermarket price remains high. Thats what happens when you have thousands of deer farms and only a couple hundred preserves that actually buy other deer. It happens the same way in grain, when a commodity becomes high priced, everyone plants it the next year and then guess what happens to that crop, price usually goes down if the crop is good. Now days so many people are raising big deer at an earlier age and so much more efficient that there are way more shooters now available then a few years ago. The Economy right now doesn't help any either. I'm afraid that's just how supply and demand works, like it or not. Same as if you have 2 feed stores with the same brand deer feed you need, who are you going to buy from, probably the one who shoots you the best price. That's why it doesn't make much sense to buy a $50,000 doe that will return you a few shooter bucks you can't sell, If your extremely lucky and she doesn't tip over dead when you get her home and you still have to feed her. The over inflated auction fake run up days are about over and now the prices are getting back where they should be for what the actual demand is. Like Sharkey said, "in a free market, the market decides". Just my 2 cents that ain't worth a penny.



Cody Warne

I couldn't have said it better. Good people with good deer usually never have a hard time selling deer.

Dog gone it Steven, you just made your business everyones business and mine too by explaining the cost of your business, right here on line. Anyway, I recalculated your figures and wow, by your calculations you show that you just made over $12,000 for that one weekend hunt, thats awesome. But it also looks like you may have made even more than that. Ya see, it does'nt cost $100 to dart one deer, unless you are a poor shot and have to shoot several times. A bottle of telezol at most is around $55 to $65. A dart is $3 to $4 each. At minimun if done correctly, two deer can be tranquilized for LESS than $100. I can tranquilize 4 bucks for $100, and yes they are wild.



Now as for $300 to go get him, that could be but chances are you are probably not spending $300 to travel after ONE 170" buck, at least a wise business man would not, especially for a 170".



You mentioned a $400 ton of feed for HIM for a month........uuuummmmm. One deer will eat about 5 pounds of feed per day, thats 150 pounds a month, multiplied by the 3 bucks you have now is only,,,,,,,,,about 450 pounds not one ton. So thats only $100 not $400.



You pay your chef $400 per hunt, that is $1,200 a weekend for the 3 guys. If you are really paying the cook that, then I would come and do their cooking for less. Since the other amounts you talk about are over inflated, the cooks salary, more than likely, is over inflated also, so I will just stay here and tend to my own job, thanks though. You say he spends $200 for BillyBobs food, thats $600, thats impossible. I spend about $150 a WEEK, thats 7 days, to feed my family of 3. Are you feeding them lobster and halibut, I doubt it.



Now, my turn, and I speak for all breeders. Let's say a breeder buys a cheap $500 doe fawn, raise it till age 1.5 years breeds her then she has her fawns at age 2. Chances are, she had 1 buck and 1 doe fawn. At weening the buck fawn the breeder kills the doe to butcher. By now the breeder has fed her for 2 years. At $400 per year for feed, water and hay the breeder has $1,300 invested in the doe. Ok. Now let's raise the buck for 2 years, feed, water and hay. Thats $800 more spent. Plus $25 to tranquilize at age 1.5 to saw the antlers. Total spent is $2,125. The buck scores in the 170's. You pay the breeder $3,000. The breeder made $875 in 4 years. You made $12,000 in one weekend. WOW is'nt that amazing.



Jeff

Hunting preserves are at the end of the supply chain. Therefore they are set up to make money as deer farms fold and sell out. I don't blame them for their position. It's just they way things are. We need each other.



The real problem in all of this is current economic situation. Bailing out wall street just encouraged them to funnel the new money directly into commodities driving feed price up. At the same time people are losing jobs right and left or are taking pay cuts. Bank of America is looking at laying off 40,000 alone.



A person without a job is not going to buy a hunt from a preserve. The only option left open is to drop prices and look for new hunters from the ranks of those that were unable to afford the old prices. But as we all know if the new prices don't pay the feed bill........





Good luck to us all!

Economics..... Jeff, I wish I only paid $55 for Telazol. Last I got here I paid $86 a bottle, and that was buying 12 bottles. I guess my vets trying to kill the deer industry too since he makes a living and services 2 counties with a total population 6200. As far as darting a deer, I mix 3.5 of xylazine 333($) to a bottle of telazol, mature buck

/big pen I'd hit him with 1.5 just to be safe and make sure hes out. He goes down then banamine, wormer, antibiotic, b complex and if its tolazine. I just figured $100..... seems close.



You see Texas is a big state and the borders are closed. There's a lot of shooter packages of 20+ bucks. But I dont need 20 plus bucks. I only need a handful. If I can get more than one in one trip I will but with a movement deadline of Sept 20 you have a small window that a ton of deer move in and honestly I like it that way instead of being able to breed a buck in November and shoot him in December. Maybe if your state had a movement deadline for hard horned animals it would make the preserves step up to the plate and buy early and pay more......



I made a 627 mile round trip yesterday delivering one deer and picking one up. Stopped 5 times for gas and 3 times to eat. Not economical but the best that could be done since both were Southeast of me and the next group of deer I have bought are Northeast. That was one of those, "I got a buddy over here 45 miles that has a 200" 3 yr old hed like to sell, I dont have a picture of him but we can go look at him" . We bought him out of economics and to help a guy out that didnt really know how to push his deer butt needed to pay his feed bill.



Well you got me on the $400 ton of feed. Ive got all my deer in my 1800 acre hunting pasture I lease trained to stay away from the new guys feeder so only he can eat out of it for 30 days. What do you think I do? Stick em in a breeder pen and shoot em the next day? Hello????



Cook gets paid $400 for a hunt(trip out to ranch to cook for hunters) up to 5 people, $500 to 10.



Ever cooked for 5-10 people? Ever cooked for someone you wanted to impress? My son will eat deer meat and potatoes with a piece of bread and be happy. On a paid hunt people expect 3 meals a day. Hello? Ive gotta pay for the guide and cook to eat too..... Have you seen the price of groceries lately? Those farmers and dairy people are ripping us off( thats a joke, I know plenty of farmers worse off than me). I dont feed em lobster but I dont feed em hot dogs and oatmeal either.



Yep Ive made $12,000 in a weekend before. But I worked my butt off 10 months out of the year stretching that $12k from the previous year to get back to it. My window of opportunity is small.



So I guess joe blow hunter is going to say to me. "Look Steve, I know you have to feed dolly, holly, and molly in order to breed them to make shooter bucks. I'm going to pay you an extra $2k for this hunt so you can feed those deer I dont give a crap about instead of going somewhere else and spending less money to shoot the same size animal." Good luck with that!



Why cant people understand that the hunter is the end user in this market and will set the price by demand? He could care less about what a deers pedigree, feed bill, or vaccination report looks like. If he can get online and in two hours price 100 hunts across the US for 170 plus bucks, including free range Odds are he's going to call the 5 lowest priced places and make a choice between them. Has it ever occured to you that the reason the preserve is nickle and diming you is because he was nickle and dimed himself?



Its not the hunters problem people cant figure out how to feed their does. You may pay $5000 for a well pedigreed doe, I wont because I know I could never get someone to pay me $500 to shoot her. I cant help it if a breeder spent $200,000 buying his breeding stock to start out with that doesnt have anything to do with the product youre selling that has a $ value placed on what he has on his head by the end user.



Here's the kicker. In todays economy most hunters want to shoot a 150-170 in the $5k range. Theres not any out there because the breeders are all breeding for bigger deer. Its like going to a chevy dealership, most middle class families will buy an impala, when you get there he's got 50 corvettes and 2 impalas. It wont be long before he has to take a major loss on some of his corvettes just to move them because he's got all these customers with a limited amount of income to spend.



As for economics, Ive been doing this for 20 years. When we started we did 125 free range hunts a year easy. Gave Buckmasters a hunt every year and spent $3000 a year for a two inch add in the back of a couple of magazines. Phone rang off the hook, at times we'd get over 100 phone calls with a 25% booking rate after a tv show on TNN. This year I will have spent $30,000 in advertising to sell 75 hunts at a lower profit percentage. Go figure that. Its the world we live in and I'm dealing with it every day but I'm not going to complain about what someone else did or does to survive because I may have to do it tomorrow. Who knows, maybe we'll get lucky, Jesus will come back and I dont have to worry about all this non essential crap anymore. Thats my hope anyway.

I believe there is alot of truth spoke here on all these posts, except yours Sharkey(just kiddin), with 'most' of the slants/differences boiling down to different perpectives. The one thing that is for sure and for certain is the fact that this world today is chucked full of uncertainties, and the deer industry is not one bit exempt. Had to laugh(respectfully) Steven at your last 2 sentences and could not agree with you more - my hope as well!!!

Well said Steven. When the truth is spoke, many become offended, but its just not right to hide behind lies. I have turned down 2 deer buyers and explained to another that there is not much money left to be made in this industry. I also told them that because I knew they would be in shooter buck competition against us soon. As far as what you said to me, I was not offended. I'm sure Reed was offended, though I did not want to offend, I just wanted to put reality in perspective. Good luck.



Jeff

Probably a terrible time to even put a post up here. I have been guiding 6 days a week from 5 am-10pm We are entertaining hunters. It is a blast sitting in the stand and watching big bucks hit the floor. After months of guiding it starts to effect you pretty bad. For all the guys that think the preserves are making a killin right now I encourage you to put up a place and do it. I can see preserves going under in the next 2 years. I have spoke with 2 of the biggest preserves in the country in the past few weeks and one is making a go of it with numbers way down. The other is struggling and may go under this year. When an out sider looks in it looks as if the ranches make the money and producers get ripped. In the past 10 years of hunting we have possibly had more years in the RED then in the positive. Some say how can that be look at the turn around. My answer is simply this buy a track of land put up some fence and see how you make out. It is hard to sit here and read all these negative posts. I feel as if we have taken a step towards a better future with our ranch. We have invested more money into advertising in the past 12 months that I could live off of for several years. All these expense need to come from somewhere. It all comes down to quality hunting vs a put and take cheap run down version joke of a hunting ranch. May sound harsh but as a indusrtry we need to work in one direction.

Jeff, I'm by no means offended and didnt intend to offend anyone else. I just wanted to clarify comicly that not everyone out there running a preserve is getting rich at someone elses suffering, especially not the ones ran with integrity and honesty. Just to reiterate that point I received two bills today that didnt go into prior posts. 1. replacement and repair bill for 11 trailcameras and 2. 7 new pop up blinds to replace ones worn out or torn up. Not to mention the monthly bill for the 2 million dollar general liability policy, thank the Lord they take monthly payments on that one......



I used to love to read this forum and posted a good bit. But when I read about is this problem or that problem, other than health issues, it gets depressing. My generation isn't as bad as my sons but no one seems to want to be accountable for their decisions or actions. We're all entitled to a big screen tv, cell phone, and new vehicle. And thats just not the case. Sometimes it comes down to what a person can do or has to do to survive and feed his animals or even moreso his family. I personally applaud a person who puts aside pride and takes less than he feels he deserves to make sure those things are taken care of. I also dont think its right to take advantage of someone in need but it happens and will continue to happen. If the buyer and seller agree on a price and one pays and the other cashes the check there's not much any of us can say or do about it.



I'd tell anyone coming into this business at the top or the bottom you might as well just kiss your initial investment goodbye. The cost of the facility, pens, breeding stock... basicly all start up expenses and start from the day after you fill up the feeders the first time keeping up with money in and out. Then if you stay above zero and enjoy it it was worth the investment, if not then lesson learned. The top 3% of breeding animals bring good money, A $10,000 doe eats the same amount of feed as a $1,000 doe, you just dont get your feelings hurt as bad when both of their three year old sons bring the same amount of money getting on a trailer headed to a preserve.

You know if everyone would agree on some set prices for shooters and some set prices for hunts we would not have this problem. One guy trying to lowball the other to get more hunts is were it all starts. The industry needs to set a standard and if you are not meeting those standards you get black balled. Yes I know there are more 200+ bucks now than ever before and not enoughf high end hunters to shoot them all so we lower the cost on those hunts. As for the 200 and lower stick to the old prices and you would probly sell more 200+ hunts because they would be geting a better deal on that calibor of a hunt. We all have low end or smaller bucks that cost the same to raise as a big one. So we need to stick together and keep those prices up to were we are not loosing on them.

One more thing its pretty bad when no one can list what they are paying for shooters. This tells me most preserve owners are just waiting to take advantage of someone. what is everyone afraid of how hard is it to list your prices.