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Joined Jun 2009
273 Posts | 0+
Perryville, Mo. USA
You are correct Virgil. I was told by a well known preserve owner that it is the preserve owners who are cutting each others throats by low balling there hunts. In my line of business ( and I said this before on these forums) I cull out the low end client. These are the ones that are always calling price shopping, low balling me at the job sight or just telling me that they can get it cheaper else where. I tell them "good bye" because I know they will not appreciate low quality product or poor quality service (especially poor quality service) when they do go elswhere and after they get burnt once or twice they do return to quality. Before long there after I see those guys that can not give high quality, do poorly themselves and there business fails.
Joined Feb 2011
395 Posts | 0+
Pierre SD
Set price??? That's called communism and it's never worked unless YOU are willing to loan the guy who needs to pay his bills money until he finds a buyer or should I say to the guys who do nothing to promote what they have, a buyer finds them. This country was built on competition and free markets, the ones who work harder, breed better and more efficient will usually make more money then the guys who make bad decisions and do nothing to promote or market there buisiness. It 's easy to say hold out if you have the money and place to feed and house your deer for an uncertain amount of time. I would like to hold mine until I can get what I want for them, I'm willing to hold out if your willing to bank role me.
Robert, I say this with all due respect. The price up front hunters pay, is a deposit. If I think I'm going to book 20 hunts next year, based on my offseason expenses from last year, I set a deposit rate of $1500 or $2,000. Thats to pay my bills during the offseason. By the time season rolls around all the deposit money is gone and if the hunter doesnt kill a deer I'm out the money to pay for his hunt expenses because he doesnt pay a kill fee. Add to that mortality rate for deer bought and you start losing money in a hurry.
Most preserves have to release 3 or 4 yr olds and have to do so in the fall. You have two negatives there, a bad age to release and a bad time of the year. I wont say any specifics but that release date leads to lower survivability. If you want the best survivability as a preserve you release bucks in the late winter/early spring of growing their third set of horns. Thats when I release mine with over 90% surviving every year to 4 or older. If I didnt grow my own I couldnt release them then because breeders wont sell them then. You get the old this ones got this pedigree, that ones got a 4 yr old brother that blew up at three, they'll be bigger this fall and I might get more money for them then, etc......
The reason you wont see a price list on here is that prices are different in every state. The first thing I ask when looking at deer is "what do you want for them?". Then the negotiating begins. I may pay more to breeder x because his deer are in better body shape than breeder y's. I may pay more if they act like deer and not pets. I may pay more if they are all the same age and not a mixed bag, been in the same pen together for a year, or if I know this breeder has a product I want first option on next year, or throws a couple younger deer in at a decent price.
There are so many factors when buying a deer you cant put a set price on every size. I wont. The breeders are just as responsible for the situation theyre in as the preserves are. I could say more but its just not sinking in for some. You set youre own price by accepting the check, yeah some people are crooks and probably do bad things but like heath said, theres a lot of em that'll be out of business in the next year or two.
Most preserves have to release 3 or 4 yr olds and have to do so in the fall. You have two negatives there, a bad age to release and a bad time of the year. I wont say any specifics but that release date leads to lower survivability. If you want the best survivability as a preserve you release bucks in the late winter/early spring of growing their third set of horns. Thats when I release mine with over 90% surviving every year to 4 or older. If I didnt grow my own I couldnt release them then because breeders wont sell them then. You get the old this ones got this pedigree, that ones got a 4 yr old brother that blew up at three, they'll be bigger this fall and I might get more money for them then, etc......
The reason you wont see a price list on here is that prices are different in every state. The first thing I ask when looking at deer is "what do you want for them?". Then the negotiating begins. I may pay more to breeder x because his deer are in better body shape than breeder y's. I may pay more if they act like deer and not pets. I may pay more if they are all the same age and not a mixed bag, been in the same pen together for a year, or if I know this breeder has a product I want first option on next year, or throws a couple younger deer in at a decent price.
There are so many factors when buying a deer you cant put a set price on every size. I wont. The breeders are just as responsible for the situation theyre in as the preserves are. I could say more but its just not sinking in for some. You set youre own price by accepting the check, yeah some people are crooks and probably do bad things but like heath said, theres a lot of em that'll be out of business in the next year or two.
Joined Jun 2011
16 Posts | 0+
Reynoldsville
seems to be alot more advertizing money spent on breeding stock. Maybe we should be more concerned about getting more hunts not more deer. After all if we dont find the hunters why do we need deer breeders.
Joined May 2009
685 Posts | 0+
Northwest Illinois
rrwhitetails said:seems to be alot more advertizing money spent on breeding stock. Maybe we should be more concerned about getting more hunts not more deer. After all if we dont find the hunters why do we need deer breeders.
What you said is very true and is already catching up to the industry!
Joined Oct 2011
7 Posts | 0+
Coalgate, Oklahoma
My ranch is in south east Oklahoma. Bow Safari. This is my second year to conduct trophy whitetail hunts. Last year was tough being my first year. Very hard to get hunters. This year was looking good, until it came down to getting deposits and closing the deals. Everyone was coming to hear tell. Then it was a panic until we finally got some commitments 2 months after deposits were due. As of right now we have 24 whitetail hunts starting Nov 4th. The way I have been buying deer is taking my hunt prices and splitting that with the breeder. This keeps it as fair as possible. Until I have to discount the hunt because of another ranch shooting deer cheaper than I can buy them. Anyway, we have averaged giving 1200-1750 for 150"-160" deer, we sell these hunts for $3500 and feed and lodge them for 3 days. 170-190 class deer have cost us 2250-3500. Some 190 class deer have cost more. Now we have a couple more companies thinking about booking but deer in Oklahoma are hard to come by.
Joined Oct 2011
7 Posts | 0+
Coalgate, Oklahoma
One more thing. 200 inch deer have cost us $4500-6000 depending on the quality. And one group of hunters I had to discount to $8500 for the hunt because someone in Ohio priced them for $6000 a piece. We usually sell them for $10000.
Joined Apr 2009
283 Posts | 0+
Between shipshy and Indy
Joined Oct 2011
7 Posts | 0+
Coalgate, Oklahoma
Don't think there is too many. Alot of them raise their own deer now. There are alot more deer than there are hunters is the main problem. Another problem is the loss of non corporate clients. We have to rely on the oil companies to bring groups in or we are screwed. Bad thing about that is they are just wanting to hunt in November and December. Most breeders here want the deer sold and gone in September. I cant do that and risk the deer surviving for 2 or 3 months until the hunt. Our preserve is 1200 acres and its too risky. If a guy wants to sell shooter bucks he needs to have pens to hold them until the preserve needs them, instead of rushing the preserve to pick them up and risk the deer dying putting the death risk on the preserve. My friend in Wisconsin has a preserve and he doesnt pay the breeders until the buck is shot. That way he and the breeder get paid at the same time. He assumes no death risk anymore because he has had so many die after being released in the preserve. We have already lost a 170" deer this year. $3500 down the drain. What sucks is the breeder got paid and I lost. Only in for a week and died. Me and the hunter found him dead the morning of the guys hunt. So its a risk all the way around. Got to be a better way to share a loss.
Joined Jul 2010
429 Posts | 1+
Waynesboro, Pa 17268
Bow Safari said:Don't think there is too many. Alot of them raise their own deer now. There are alot more deer than there are hunters is the main problem. Another problem is the loss of non corporate clients. We have to rely on the oil companies to bring groups in or we are screwed. Bad thing about that is they are just wanting to hunt in November and December. Most breeders here want the deer sold and gone in September. I cant do that and risk the deer surviving for 2 or 3 months until the hunt. Our preserve is 1200 acres and its too risky. If a guy wants to sell shooter bucks he needs to have pens to hold them until the preserve needs them, instead of rushing the preserve to pick them up and risk the deer dying putting the death risk on the preserve. My friend in Wisconsin has a preserve and he doesnt pay the breeders until the buck is shot. That way he and the breeder get paid at the same time. He assumes no death risk anymore because he has had so many die after being released in the preserve. We have already lost a 170" deer this year. $3500 down the drain. What sucks is the breeder got paid and I lost. Only in for a week and died. Me and the hunter found him dead the morning of the guys hunt. So its a risk all the way around. Got to be a better way to share a loss.
I think that is a great discussion. How would a preserve and a farm work together to lower the risk of loss? Right now as you said it is on the ranch if a buck is lost ( you have already paid the farmer) But if the farmer puts a deer on your ranch for a later payment and it is lost its on the farmer. In your opinion what would be the common or middle ground to help both parties to share in the risk? I dont mean to put you on the spot and or anyone could chime in for that matter. But i feel as if it needs to be discussed. There are always better ways to do business, good business at that. And so often we here the problems with the industry but no solutions. I think you started some great dialog here.
Who payes for the farmers losses before he even sells to the preserve? The preserve I sell to will sometimes take deer and pay as he shoots them but he gives you a set price for each deer and if they die it is on him. He gets ins on the bigger ones and eats the loss on the smaller ones. We all have to eat losses some were down the line.
Joined Apr 2009
283 Posts | 0+
Between shipshy and Indy
Bow safari
I'm all for sharing the loss if I can trust the preserve owner to be honest. I have heard so many horror stories of farmers being told that a buck died before it was shot but when asked to return the rack they wont.
On holding bucks until november or december for a preserve and then getting paid when they are shot, i would have to be assured that I wouldn't get stuck with them for another year.
I would love to have the kind of business relatioship you are talking about with a preserve but us farmer are in a vulnerable position. For me my bucks are what pays the feed bill. If I make this kind of deal with the wrong person my business will be done.
I'm all for sharing the loss if I can trust the preserve owner to be honest. I have heard so many horror stories of farmers being told that a buck died before it was shot but when asked to return the rack they wont.
On holding bucks until november or december for a preserve and then getting paid when they are shot, i would have to be assured that I wouldn't get stuck with them for another year.
I would love to have the kind of business relatioship you are talking about with a preserve but us farmer are in a vulnerable position. For me my bucks are what pays the feed bill. If I make this kind of deal with the wrong person my business will be done.
It's kind of intresting that the deer industry is the only livestock industry where the producer is asked to take the risk of death after he sells the animal. When a person ships hogs, turkeys, cattle, sheep... ect , once the animal is sold it's no longer the farmer's responsiablity.
The farmer has taken the risk since the doe was bred until the buck is 4 years old on every deer already. Now he needs to take the risk after he/she sells the buck, when he has no control how the animal is handled, what other animals it is put in with..ect. Then get paid at some time in the future. It's all to the preserve's advantage. No farm can run that way long.
The farmer has taken the risk since the doe was bred until the buck is 4 years old on every deer already. Now he needs to take the risk after he/she sells the buck, when he has no control how the animal is handled, what other animals it is put in with..ect. Then get paid at some time in the future. It's all to the preserve's advantage. No farm can run that way long.
Joined Apr 2009
3,353 Posts | 0+
Fombell PA
Very well put fars and I happen to agree....the farmer takes his risk (and expenses) growing the animal......when it leaves in good health it should be paid for......yes the preserves have their risks as well....that's the price for being in this business and we all have our own risks!
Joined Jul 2010
429 Posts | 1+
Waynesboro, Pa 17268
I look at it this way:
I see the argument as deer farmers taking responsibility. But there is a double standard here. When we as deer farmers purchase breeding stock we expect health guarantees, reimbursement, or even replacement for lost stock. I also have lost some high dollar investments days or weeks after purchase and was told " Thats deer Farming" personally i will not ever do business with those people nor will i recommend there animals to anyone.Now as deer farmers we will not hold the same standard for a preserve. Hunting Preserves are not just a place to dump unwanted animals. Its an additional business relationship that may bring in additional income time and time again. Much like our breeding operations do.
Do i think it should be all on deer farmers NO should it be all on the preserves NO. I believe it is an interesting concept to come up with a creative way to share the investment. If you, us, or we could come up with a way to do this it could revolutionize the industry. I think of it as a preserve owner with less money lost means more money spent in marketing, up keep, and hunter luxuries that would ultimately bring them back. As a deer farmer having a place to move your animals year after year, covering feed bills, and growing the quality of our stock.
These relationships are a must for the growth and survival of our industry. If a shared venture that is beneficial for both parties could be developed it could be an answer to each farms stocker buck issues.
As deer farmers we buy from those we know and feel comfortable with. Those who treat us fare and honor there agreements. We will buy again and again from those people. This could be the same from preserves as well.
I unfortunately do not have the answer to this but would like to hear more on how some different farms and preserves work these issues out together. If you do have a business relationship between farm and preserve that works i would like to know more!
I see the argument as deer farmers taking responsibility. But there is a double standard here. When we as deer farmers purchase breeding stock we expect health guarantees, reimbursement, or even replacement for lost stock. I also have lost some high dollar investments days or weeks after purchase and was told " Thats deer Farming" personally i will not ever do business with those people nor will i recommend there animals to anyone.Now as deer farmers we will not hold the same standard for a preserve. Hunting Preserves are not just a place to dump unwanted animals. Its an additional business relationship that may bring in additional income time and time again. Much like our breeding operations do.
Do i think it should be all on deer farmers NO should it be all on the preserves NO. I believe it is an interesting concept to come up with a creative way to share the investment. If you, us, or we could come up with a way to do this it could revolutionize the industry. I think of it as a preserve owner with less money lost means more money spent in marketing, up keep, and hunter luxuries that would ultimately bring them back. As a deer farmer having a place to move your animals year after year, covering feed bills, and growing the quality of our stock.
These relationships are a must for the growth and survival of our industry. If a shared venture that is beneficial for both parties could be developed it could be an answer to each farms stocker buck issues.
As deer farmers we buy from those we know and feel comfortable with. Those who treat us fare and honor there agreements. We will buy again and again from those people. This could be the same from preserves as well.
I unfortunately do not have the answer to this but would like to hear more on how some different farms and preserves work these issues out together. If you do have a business relationship between farm and preserve that works i would like to know more!
Joined Apr 2009
187 Posts | 0+
Claremore, Ok
The farmer has kept them alive for 2 + years and putting them in a preserve for 1 reason with a bunch of other new ones is a recipe for disaster.
Our buyer "Bow Safari" has ask us to keep them right up until the last minute which was not easy but we managed.
I understand both sides of the fence and that is why we agreed to wait
Our buyer "Bow Safari" has ask us to keep them right up until the last minute which was not easy but we managed.
I understand both sides of the fence and that is why we agreed to wait
I have one. I tell the preserve owner what I want if he likes the price he buys them. If he feels it is to much we wheel and deal a little til we agree. After this we shake hands and what ever was agreed upon is what we do. The best thing to do is build a relation ship with a preserve or two and stick together. When preserves buy deer they should always figure in the cost of loosing a few.
Joined Oct 2011
7 Posts | 0+
Coalgate, Oklahoma
I agree with everyone. Its a tough deal all the way around. Some bucks are just more delicate than others. I don't ever want to see one die but it does happen. We have native deer in our preserve also, but nothing big(130's). What scares me is a group of clients coming in after a particular buck and we find him dead. What do you do then? I'm not a wealthy man by no means and a $5000 loss can really throw me in a bind especially today having to cut prices to compete and close the deal on hunts. I wish I could afford to just throw 30 shooters in at the beginning of season and hope for the best, but from my experience the deer willl not do well out in a large area. The rut really kicks their butt for one, another problem is trying to keep them healthy, they lose alot of weight not being in their small pens with all you can eat groceries. So theres alot of things that can go wrong which makes me lose alot of sleep worrying this time of year after the bucks are released. I wish there was an easy fix for the farmer and the preserve cause I support both. If you don't have a place to go with the bucks they are just expensive yard ornaments. Back to the "what if the particular buck dies". If that happens Im in a tight spot. First things first we have to keep the hunter happy, we want him to come back. Do I eat the $5000 for the 200" deer when I sold the hunt for $8500? Cant just run to Walmart and replace him. The deer I lost last week was a 160-170. I watched that deer for several days, he never went to water. It was kind of hot that week, could he have died in 7 days from no water? I think so. Im willing to help you guys that raise deer make the same amount as I do but we have to figure something out that works for us both if that deer dies. I dont like turning bucks out a day or 2 before the hunt but, Dang it scares the heck out of me to lose one. I love whitetails but man this business will drive a guy insane with worries. My corporate hunters grew from 8 to 24 this year and I think next year will be even better but I dont know if my nerves can take it!!! Most of my hunters understand the risk on my part but it still doesnt replace the deer when he dies. Maybe the loss should be split down the middle. Dont know.....
I have a deer for 2_4 years and sell it for 5000 I have to feed him give him meds and then figure in all the costs of his mothers expences and the costs of all the bucks that died before I was able to sell them. So for a preserve to expect to just double his money In a couple months with no losses is not right. As a breeder we do all we can to keep our deer healthy until sold. Now it is the preserves turn to do all he can until the deer is shot.
See if you can keep the deer at the farm were you buy them after you pay for them. Tell him you will except full responsibilaty for the deer. This way you can shoot them as you bring them to your preserve. A nother thing you can do is build holding pens and just release them into your preserve as you need them.
See if you can keep the deer at the farm were you buy them after you pay for them. Tell him you will except full responsibilaty for the deer. This way you can shoot them as you bring them to your preserve. A nother thing you can do is build holding pens and just release them into your preserve as you need them.