I also meant to thank Four Seasons Whitetails, Wild Rivers Whitetails, David for sounding logical and Travis for a reasonable approach and our lengthy phone calls. I am sure I missed someone but most of the rest seems misinformed or have something else they are working on. So most of you don't need to post about your lack of agendas' and all because I think I am pretty settled in my opinions on that at this point.
CWD Program HSUS
- Thread starter Rhonda Brakke
- Start date
As a member of the ACA i will not give a detail list of the ACA's accomplishments in response to David's question because it won't make any difference because when he asked that question back in February we answered it and then he said the ACA was "beating its chest" by listing what its accomplished so I personally will opt out of those questions.
The ACA is 29 ACTIVE associations strong and working together. Period. I suggest any controversy be better spent on how to deal with the 56 new pages of federal regulations pushed on the industry by the federal standards.
Respectfully always,
Travis
The ACA is 29 ACTIVE associations strong and working together. Period. I suggest any controversy be better spent on how to deal with the 56 new pages of federal regulations pushed on the industry by the federal standards.
Respectfully always,
Travis
Well said Travis. I have stated numerous times what this document can and will do to anyone who is involved in a CWD positive, trace back, or trace forward. If you can afford to be quarantined for 5 years without any guarantee of movement or indemnification, then by all means, they aren't that bad...end of story. I for one cannot afford to be quantined for 6 months without one or the other so I guess that's why I continue to state the federal rules and standards are designed to eventually put us out of business because there will be more cases like the one in Iowa.
The government agencies, HSUS, QDMA, etc. are using CWD as an excuse to do away with our industry one state at a time. Just look at the border closing issues in NY, Louisiana and Florida....how many more states are going to follow down that path?
The government agencies, HSUS, QDMA, etc. are using CWD as an excuse to do away with our industry one state at a time. Just look at the border closing issues in NY, Louisiana and Florida....how many more states are going to follow down that path?
Three additional SUGGESTiONS that have been added into these standards is embryos and semen as possible transmission routes although there is no scientific evidence to back this claim up...fencing suggestions have also been added to include 10 foot fences to guarantee 100 percent prevention of ingress or egress....Dr Clifford was also very specific that the standards were optional and not required of the states. The working group had that language in the introduction to Part A and Part B. it is now left out of Part B which is the most restrictive part of the document. Folks these are suggestions only and you may very well have a great industry friendly state vet or DNR but those officials change frequently as do their philosophies. Some states are taking these standards as the gospel regardless. These are only some of the examples. That is why we are saying this document, optional or not, goes and makes suggestions way above the rule. The rule definitely needs some serious work but the standards are terrible and apparently there are a lot of folks who feel the same way.
Travis said:
Travis,
With all due respect, if ACA is going to be the new coalition, I believe that ACA will need to be more transparent to the industry with what it is doing. That has been one of the complaints against ACA, that industry members have not been kept informed and that the issues have not been explained well enough.
It's easy to point out all that's wrong with the industry but unless ACA is actually accomplishing something, it is just talk. Charly has already stated that ACA has accomplished very little and I was hoping that meant some small something had been accomplished and was curious what that was.
In the past when I criticized ACA, it was because they were making statements that were untrue and claiming they had more support than they actually had. I posted information that proved that. Now let's move on. The industry does not need two coalitions so if ACA is going to be the new coalition, ACA needs to be upfront and honest about what they are doing and let the industry know how they will help solve the problems we are faced with.
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
Ny is closing the border to try and keep cwd out. Will it work, Probably not seeing we have had it years ago. All but 1 farm that i know of have been cleared of any traces either way. This will help protect Ny farms from cwd but will also stop free trade.
We have not had any new rules put on us. We can still bring in semen and embryos. We have not had to go to 10ft fences. Has there been any state that has been givin new rules as far as fences? I believe Iowa had a bill going and it was shot down as far as fencing laws.
If we have a positive farm they will not depopulate you and you can move deer to a terminal facility inside the state( If you can find one to take your deer)!
We have not had any new rules put on us. We can still bring in semen and embryos. We have not had to go to 10ft fences. Has there been any state that has been givin new rules as far as fences? I believe Iowa had a bill going and it was shot down as far as fencing laws.
If we have a positive farm they will not depopulate you and you can move deer to a terminal facility inside the state( If you can find one to take your deer)!
David,
With all due respect we already had this convo on 2-8-13.
And Charly was clearly referring to the progress of improvement between versions of the standards which has been little because it's still far from "liveable"
With all due respect we already had this convo on 2-8-13.
And Charly was clearly referring to the progress of improvement between versions of the standards which has been little because it's still far from "liveable"
David, You want to talk about accomplishments and what ever, call Tom And Rhonda Brakke up, ask them who aided them with documentation for their legal fight. Ask them who has sponsored benefits and who has aided their legal battles financially. Ask them who stepped up !!!!! Wait, I could say more, but I will just get accused of beating my chest. The state of Iowa is following the new program to the letter. Ask Brakkes what they think of the program. Could any of you survive quarantining your herd an land for 5 years?
Tim, you talk about me being misinformed, I have read the documents also. I listen to my state vet. Dr. Bill Hartmann, tell me that this program was "designed to put us out of business". Dr. Hartmann was on the working group that tried to help fix this! But I shouldn't listen to him, because he is misinformed? Those of you doubters on here call him up, his number is 651-201-6804. He will be very open with you. Or do you think he has an agenda???
Tim, I spent my own money going to Washington to help NADEFA. I think I asked Dr. Clifford some of the difficult questions that he was uncomfortable with. I spent my own money going to NADEFA conference. I sat through Dr. Klein's meeting and asked her about wildlife being exempted from the rules, something she was uncomfortable with. Mike, didn't I send you CWD literature for your meetings? But wait, i will probably be accused of beating my chest! I am tired of these misinformed, addenda, digs. I will help ANYONE that needs help on this CWD problem, NADEFA or no NADEFA.
On a different note.
If the CWD program is designed to stop the spread and control the disease. With the closing of all these states, the breeder can opt out of being a certified herd. If you are not moving deer out of state , you don't need to be a certified herd. There is no benefit in being in the program. The CWD program is a voluntary program, as per Dr. Klein. So as more herds drop out of the program, there is less testing of animals. They won't find these animals that are carriers, that the program would have found.
If the rules of the program are making farmers leave the program, isn't this exactly the opposite of the goals and purpose of the program?
The program will do exactly the opposite of what the program was designed to do !!!!
Tim, you talk about me being misinformed, I have read the documents also. I listen to my state vet. Dr. Bill Hartmann, tell me that this program was "designed to put us out of business". Dr. Hartmann was on the working group that tried to help fix this! But I shouldn't listen to him, because he is misinformed? Those of you doubters on here call him up, his number is 651-201-6804. He will be very open with you. Or do you think he has an agenda???
Tim, I spent my own money going to Washington to help NADEFA. I think I asked Dr. Clifford some of the difficult questions that he was uncomfortable with. I spent my own money going to NADEFA conference. I sat through Dr. Klein's meeting and asked her about wildlife being exempted from the rules, something she was uncomfortable with. Mike, didn't I send you CWD literature for your meetings? But wait, i will probably be accused of beating my chest! I am tired of these misinformed, addenda, digs. I will help ANYONE that needs help on this CWD problem, NADEFA or no NADEFA.
On a different note.
If the CWD program is designed to stop the spread and control the disease. With the closing of all these states, the breeder can opt out of being a certified herd. If you are not moving deer out of state , you don't need to be a certified herd. There is no benefit in being in the program. The CWD program is a voluntary program, as per Dr. Klein. So as more herds drop out of the program, there is less testing of animals. They won't find these animals that are carriers, that the program would have found.
If the rules of the program are making farmers leave the program, isn't this exactly the opposite of the goals and purpose of the program?
The program will do exactly the opposite of what the program was designed to do !!!!
Travis said:
Travis,
Thanks for the reply. Does your statement above mean nothing has been accomplished by ACA since 2-8-13?
G O Whitetails said:
Gary,
I'm not taking issue with what ACA has done. I'm simply trying to understand what ACA has accomplished.
You mentioned Tom And Rhonda Brakke. At this point, has anything actually been accomplished with ACA's effort to help them or does it remain to be seen if that effort will produce any fruit? Maybe it's just to early to know if ACA is accomplishing anything because they have only been around for what? Eight or nine months?
Joined Apr 2009
2,617 Posts | 0+
Edgar, WI
So glad to see the same players have decided to continue their same petty, immature, personal agenda driven ********. God forbid they set that crap aside and focus on the real issues. You guys sicken me and I know I am not in the minority. In fact, maybe these discussions will make good evidence in a lawsuit I file against industry leaders to recover the money I lose from the industry dying while the leaders piss at each other instead of putting efforts towards the real issues.
IndependenceRanch said:
Roger,
I know of no industry leaders that held a gun on anyone and forced you or any of us into this business. I suspect we all entered this business of our own free will and it's up to each of us to protect our interest in our investment and not wait for someone else to do that for us.
You file your lawsuit where ever you please but it would be more appropriate to turn your anger and frustration toward the Government Wildlife Agencies that have caused most, if not all, of the problems this industry is faced with.
Joined Apr 2009
2,617 Posts | 0+
Edgar, WI
Autry said:
Would I win? Hmmm, maybe maybe not. But those named will still need to hire a lawyer to defend. Maybe those people should consider their actions and stop their petty personal agendas. Because I have donated thousands towards the industry and I am not above spending more simply out of spite to prove a point. Those who know me know I would. So go ahead and push me.
Gary, you and your click, which happen to be some of the email senders I talked about earlier, you included, continue to say things that I didn't say. You always say that you have no problem with NADeFA right before you slam them. It gets old. To bad we have these standards and rule because before we could just continue to do business as usual when we found CWD. Also we were never quarantined. Be sure and mention how you held their feet to the fire and no other people who spent their own money to be at NADeFA and Washington. I agree with you on a lot of this but I am still trying to see how it is worse than what we had. You never mention any of the good things that are in there. I hate the standards and the rule and the state rules. I have never heard one person say Charly Seale lied about Dr Clifford saying he would scrap the standards. I was told that Dr Clifford told Charly that we could scrap the rule and the standards. I don't know what Clifford said in the meeting but it would take a moron to think Dr Clifford could do away with the rule. There is only a couple of ways to do away with the rule and they take time. When you are ready to start on doing away with both the rule and the standards then I am on that team.
Isn't that what everyone wants...doing away with both the rule and the standards? I think we are all saying the same thing but for some reason there is a fight over which organization should get the credit........who cares as long as we can get them both scrapped! There isn't a doubt in my mind there are a lot of people doing a lot of things to try and make things better for our Industry! It is ashame that there has been such a wedge driven between NADefa and ACA whom I would hope are on the same team!! I am grateful fro both organizations.....I am frustrated because I do believe there is a lot more we could be doing and we are not.......I honestly feel that as Gary mentioned in a previous post, we should be sending out information to All Deer Farmers that will be effected by these crazy rules and standards........something that highlights all the bad things that we will be held accountable for in the future if they get passed.......just my opinion
Joined Apr 2009
2,617 Posts | 0+
Edgar, WI
Autry said:
You people kill me!
Yes that is correct, I have never said a bad word against the Gov wildlife agencies, USDA, WI AG, WI DNR, the wardens from WI DNR who held women and children at gun point laying on the grass in their front yard while the school bus came to pick the kids up for school. I never criticized the law breaking crooks who tapped phone lines and forcefully rampaged through peoples homes and businesses taking computers, paper files, and any other items they felt like taking.
All that and MORE took place right here in WI in 2001 all in the name of CWD. And when the fight to prove the gov and their vultures lied and committed fraud to frame members of the industry where the hell were you guys??? I donated personally to the legal fight, Whitetails Of Wisconsin donated to the legal fight, paid feed bills and more to help the Hall case and other cases. Several farms here in WI donated a lot to the cause. A few people in other states did as well.
The case was in a good position with the judge understanding the wardens had lied and committed fraud. But the case died away because the money ran out. We stood the chance then to gain DNA confirmation. We stood the chance then to prove this "always fatal" disease wasn't what the gov claimed it was. We stood the chance then to set a standard where no one could be closed down without compensation. We stood the chance then to establish reasonable protocols to follow nation wide in the event a CWD was found on a farm. Or even establish the fact CWD is not the "end of the world" crisis and have it treated as it should have been all along. Simply a research project. (Which we tried to fight for and failed because a few folks in one state can't provide much influence on their own) We stood the chance then to be recognized as a viable industry deserving of respect the same as any other livestock industry. But instead that case was left twisting in the wind to die away. Why???? Because it didn't affect you in NY, KY, PA, OK, MO, IA, MN, IN, OH or anywhere else. So why care about it. Over the last several months each state has gone through its same realization that we in WI went through 12 years ago. Each time I have read the reactions from those in other states as they learn apparently for the first time what happens when CWD is "discovered" in their own state.
I read how people say NOW is the time to fight. No it's not, the time was 12 years ago! We aren't a few months behind in this fight. We are 12 years behind!!! But what is happening instead? Infighting, petty personal agendas and back stabbing.
All I and everyone else who are tired of this infighting wants is for the industry to stand up and say, THIS IS IT, NO MORE!
You all who want to piss at each other over personal agendas and gripes you have with one another should go right ahead and do that. But do it via emails to each other because the rest of us don't care to listen to it. We have better things to do with our lives. Like feed our animals, bury the little fawn that died at birth, work at our jobs to afford to buy feed and maybe another animal to add to our herd. And try to enjoy the time we have left with our friends and loved ones. We love raising deer and want that freedom to continue to raise them. We all have the desire to make money at it but many simply want the enjoyment of raising nice bucks. I make my living at a job no one really know about. I collect a paycheck, however that in it's self is NOT why I do that job. I do it because I believe in the foundation the United States of America was founded on. I do it because I want to do my small part to insure freedom for us and others around the world. I believe in freedom of speech, freedom to travel, freedom to pursue a business unrestricted by bias of government officials with personal agendas. I believe if a woman is ***** by a group of men it is not her who should be stoned to death. I believe that if I believe in God I have that right, that freedom to do so. I believe if we want to raise a deer for enjoyment or profit, and we follow a reasonable set of rules based on scientific facts we should be allowed to do so without undue stress and risk. Back in the summer of 2002 all us deer folks were under some serious fire over CWD here in WI. Friends, neighbors and even family members took sides against us because of the lies spread by the DNR. At one point I was quite beaten down and was sitting in the deer pen watching the sun set and being licked on by my does. I was so close to simply throwing in the towel and saying I quit. And then I thought about all the men and women who had fought for our FREEDOM and I decided NO, I would not quit. I would not give into those taking my freedoms away.
These days I read in the news how the government is spying on Americans and using its power to destroy those they disagree with politically. It makes me wonder if my job is worth it anymore. Today reading these forums all I think is how stupid I was then. Maybe I should have quit. Maybe I need to reconsider many things in my life. Maybe my focus is better spent in other areas.
Ah well, I guess I will start by taking my family and going for a walk in the woods. They are where my focus is best spent.
Peace out to you all.
R
So Roger, what's your point?
Seriously, I agree with some of what you just posted. The statement you made about us not just being a few months behind and that we are 12 years behind is so true. In the past, too many people, in this industry, were alright with unreasonable regulations and agreed to accept those regulations instead of standing up and saying no.
There were those that did all they could do for this industry but they just did not have enough support from the majority of the industry members who wanted to set back and do nothing but wait for someone else to take care of the problems.
Those in states like WI know all too well what CWD and the regulations can do to their business. Many states have closed their borders to states like WI because of CWD. All this was set in motion by Government Wildlife Agencies not because of fear of disease but for fear of competition.
Don't give up!
Seriously, I agree with some of what you just posted. The statement you made about us not just being a few months behind and that we are 12 years behind is so true. In the past, too many people, in this industry, were alright with unreasonable regulations and agreed to accept those regulations instead of standing up and saying no.
There were those that did all they could do for this industry but they just did not have enough support from the majority of the industry members who wanted to set back and do nothing but wait for someone else to take care of the problems.
Those in states like WI know all too well what CWD and the regulations can do to their business. Many states have closed their borders to states like WI because of CWD. All this was set in motion by Government Wildlife Agencies not because of fear of disease but for fear of competition.
Don't give up!
I am sick of being lied to and about. If you think I am going to sit by while the people who do their best for this industry are drug through the mud you are wrong. We had CWD in Oklahoma in a herd from 1997until 2001. So thats how indemnity got started. We won. I fought with Wisconsin Roger and to lump everyone in one pile is not fair. That's how I got to be friends with you all. I am fed up as well. I guess its OK to attack all of the people on one side but when someone comes here and responds then we get calls to cool off. Here are some facts. In 2002 NADeFA had few members and had not gained any clout yet , even though several people were working on it. I have never said Charly Seale lied about anything and anyone who says I did is lying. I am the one who tried to convince everyone to stop the process of asking for aCWD UM&R because the face of CWD had changed to much from when we started. I asked to throw out the rule when it came out before it was in the books. I did say that it was not possible no matter what he may have said to Charly in a meeting for Clifford to throw out the rule. I was told in a phone call between me and Laurie that when she said at NADeFA board meeting that Charly was in Clifford's office and I thought she said would scrap the standards but she said no he would have scrapped the whole thing including the rule. I said I would have supported that if I had known you meant the whole thing. After hanging up it dawned on me that there is no way he could do that. The next day Travis called and ask me if they could get the rule and the standards both scrapped would I be on board. I told Travis that if someone says that is possible then they are spreading false information. He said I think we can and if so, what's your position. I said I would support scrapping them both. He said can you deliver your people. I said I have no people but could get the support if they could show how they could get it done. I told him I will make sure it happens if it is possible. Shortly after that I got a text saying they couldn't get it. There's more but I am done. Have to go tag some fawns. I have been through hell and almost jail and had my house ransacked, my wife intimidated, my business about ruined, lied about in court and had the lying *******s run their conspiracy on me, been destroyed by EHD several times and things you can't imagine but Roger I never almost quit.
Well crap I was going to finish with how friends donated, loaned me money and bought semen they didn't really want to give me money with out making me feel like they gave it to me. Roger was one of those people.
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