Input wanted for new semen policy

Rainer said:

Why not just make your straws in single dose units for lap? How many cells does it take

to get a doe to take? If i have never had a ai baby are you going to sell me a straw and

guarantee conception? If i buy a straw and i dont get a fawn do i get my money back?

I myself love it when people use our bucks and I hope they all grow monsters. I got into

this because a passion for Whitetail Deer and have got to know a lot of great people who

share my same ideals and passion. But this this ideal sounds a little one sided....

Click to expand...

I think I hear what you're saying Randy...



How about instead of charging people for semen you just charge per fawn. For example: If I split the straw 3 ways and have 4 fawns I pay you $20,000, but if I split it once and only have one fawn I pay you $5,000. I think it would incentize people to buy your semen knowing they only have to pay for what they get out of it. Have a minimum price incase there is no conception. Win, Win. You'd be betting on the come, but it could pay off in the long run.

I am intrigued with the idea of a deer registry..... purchased semen used in a DNA registered doe .... offspring that don't match or # of offspring too great..... again it is a matter of integriy ..... we all know of or have firsthand experience of a dirty business dealing in our industry and there is no way to hold anyone to account and if everyone had to take legal action on everyone who missused the semen they bought even with a contract how do you prove it without it costing more than it is worth, do we then stop selling semen at auction so we can conrtol 100% of who uses it

Please do not chage the size or semen count in a straw calling it a single dose straw..... A straw is to be used as contracted 1 -2 or 3 deer etc..... and you abide by your word, if you cheat you will sooner or later get caught and will be put on the so called list that some have, and almost no producer will buy or sell from a person that cheats on a contract...... Am I going to cheat knowing i cant buy or sell anymore...not worth the risk



If i understood Curts original post it was in regard to semen price versus number of breedings not wether a man is going to honor his word, that is why I thought a single straw sold with a contract to breed one deer and no splitting allowed was a viable option (there is no warrenty needed) and would help some if not all produce better conception rates.... example in reality it takes a _ number of sperm cells to successfully breed a deer but if you use 2x that number would percentage of success increase. I sure dont want to purchase a straw that only contains enough sperm cells that someone says is enough to breed one deer i want alot more, not to cheat but to impact my success of that single breeding

Curt, I think I like the idea! We sometimes have to make decissions on breeding based not only by the cross or crosses we want to make but on how much the semen cost! And on a base price per fawn based on number of times split........What happens then if I only use it on a single doe and she has twins....triplets.....qauds......? The reason I ask is because we have had that situation more than once! Curt, You the man! You have been and still are an innovator in our business.........My son said it best one year when they were having a race for the cup at an auction and he wasn't sure of the rules he said just give it to Curt.............Because without Max......ALOT OF THE COMPETION DISAPEARS! And I guess he has a point. Just keep it simple so theres not a lot of confussion and YOU know what you sold and I know what I bought! Just my 2 cents! We will be watching for the outcome!

Rick, I'm with ya.........I don't need a gaurentee on conditions the seller can't control.....Sanitary conditions on the farm,Animal health,Handiling of the deer at time of A/I,Overall dispotion of the doe. And if a mans word is no good wich we all know is an issue for some then "WE WEED THE GARDEN"

All these stipulations just makes things diffacult. If you purchase a product i feel you should be able to do with it what ever you want. When you start trying to controll what people do this only causes more problems. If you want to make adeal based on trust thats fine and this sounds like a great idea but forget all this contract stuff. The only way to do what you are saying you want to do. Is to have a vet schedaul all your clients who buy your semen travel around and do all your ai work to make sure nobody is taking advantage of situation.

I agree Virgil.......and a lot of people probably wouldn't purchase the semen under the conditions that you mention above....so if you want that control you better be willing to lose a lot of potential customers.......unfortunately, somethings are out of our control and things are going to get abused.......but then again if your paying these high dollars for a straw of semen and you want to try and stretch your investment knowing you run the risk of a lower conception rate or no conception at all then is that really abusing? It's kind of like selling someone a car and then telling them they can only use it a few times a week.........don't think thats going to fly to well with people. Just some thoughts!!

Look set your price--- sell the semen --let the buyer do what ever he wants to do with it---

enought said. Good old USA way

Sounds like everyone has his or her own opinion. I think each has different prospective on how they perceive best return for the investment. High success rates and multiple births would definitely be a plus for the farm that buys semen straws outright. Those who have lesser success or are newer or even those who don't have enough high end does to split $10K straws may be inclined to go the "per doe" route or even a "per fawn" if there was such an agreement.

Bottom line is you target your marketing to protect your interests, whether it is turning the most profit, limiting genetic flooding, or customer satisfaction.



Bad guys will do whatever they want so a handshake and an "it's a deal!" means more to me than any contract would. My own opinion is to offer several plans that would appeal to many breeders and their best interests. But the downfall to appealing to too many is that you water down the pool. Pick your poison.

New options always attract new faces!

I believe Wilderness Whitetails had something similar they used the past two years. You might see how it worked for them.

I can see all sides discussed here.But what kinda apeals to me is that say I have a doe that I want her traits and a "BIG TIME" bucks traits the one doe for the $5,000 is what I like because now for me I feel like I can really dial in my program and target certain traits in that doe instead of breeding 2 or 3 does that might not be my main focus.

Wayne,

That is ticket!

Sorry for jumping in late but do we really believe the price of a straw of semen is going to be cut in half if we agree to breed only one doe? Sorry, but I just dont see that happening. Come on folks, if that was the case everyone would just buy a single full straw for each doe as the price would be the same per doe. Who is going to put half as much semen in a doe for the same money?

Hey Curt , I've read all the posts and while most have legitimate arguments,we have to still make our bills in the end. If we take a straw that someone prices off the farm for 5000 and we sign contract for single use pay to lap AI with travel and room expenses feed darting meds etc. We then go to sale with this doe being offered bred, we would have to at least recoup our initial investment first before we could start to make anything. And as you know the economic future of deer farming and their prices are uncertain. I can however base this on the downward trend that prices have been going. I have been duped with price at auction inflation before. The real uninhibited price for great animals bred to exceptionally great sires should likewise beget such It has to start at the farm prices! I can see where your logic comes in with not splitting. If everyone has three Rolex daughters for sale at each auction, it would lower the prices overall for anyone wanting a Rolex daughter, and every farmer could afford half a dozen. If semen prices were high for that reason I would understand,but i would have to disagree. It has to start from the bottom. Set an honest price based first on heritability,not score. Then sell only off the farm, that way you don't settle for less at auction ,or have buddy's drive up the price for ya! Not talking about anyone in particular! Make the farmer that buys sign contract stating not to resell or split stall. Your problems would be solved in time. Of course you the buyer would have to limit number sold per breeding season. Less animals seen at sales and in best does on farm would equate to higher prices.

I guess curt,s not answering on here because I'm telling the truth that nobody wants to hear or its fawning time!

Its a good theory and a good example of one trying to help others out in a way he thinks is fair, but the only way I see it even coming close to being upheld is if the agreement is between the AI tech and the seller. Any other way and theres too many out there that will take advantage of the process.



There's too many "good businessmen" in this industry to NOT figure out a way around any agreement........but again, credit to Curt for trying to find a way to help others improve their genetics and even up the playing field in the industry......

I hear ya, but what if I am the tech doing the AI? I guess unless we try to be less greedy and be more honest we are not going to fix the problem. Maybe the answer could lie in a verification process before animals are consigned at all sales! In a check and balance kind of way. I stand behind my solution in my previous posts!