Joined May 2009
2,369 Posts | 0+
Chillicothe, Missouri
Joined Apr 2009
1,485 Posts | 0+
Vaughn, MT 59487
Why are we responding to dsjm with his could happen, might happen, the industry is full of dishonest people attitude when we know the majority of deer farmers are honest. His mind is made up and will not change. If he knows so much about the problem he should be turning the people into the authorities. The guys that do movement of animals without paper work and testing get caught sooner or later. I for one have addressed this for the last time and have no interest in his opinion. Let's all move on as he and his opinion are not worth our time.
Joined May 2009
2,369 Posts | 0+
Chillicothe, Missouri
Jack..I agree whole hartedly we all have better things to do....We can't get drug down by people who are of a mindset we can't change! God bless those who choose to help keep our industry headed in a positive direction.
Truby,
It's intresting research for sure. Seems more or less like a good way to trace the spread of a disease effectively backward. But, I think it would have sever limitations.
For instance, I live in Central MN and have deer pens on drained peat bog, crushed sandstone/clay, glacial till (sand and gravel), along with ancient lakeshore sand and brown clay. With this many different soil types on a single farm, you would almost need samples from every pen wouldn't you? On wild deer, yes all the soil types should more or less equal out, but pen raised deer are more limited in their travels and thus they might be way off baseline.
Another potential problem would be soil transfer. Example; in attempt to neutralize some acid soil we had a load of crushed limestone brought in from southern Nebraska. Perhaps deer from that pen catches some dreaded disease and dies. The isotope test comes back saying the deer is from a southern region of NE. Since no deer farms are in that area, obviously that deer orginated from the wild and obviously we are guilty of a multitude of crimes even though that deer was born in the pen he died in.
I think it's good research, but the application might be problematic as a test.
It's intresting research for sure. Seems more or less like a good way to trace the spread of a disease effectively backward. But, I think it would have sever limitations.
For instance, I live in Central MN and have deer pens on drained peat bog, crushed sandstone/clay, glacial till (sand and gravel), along with ancient lakeshore sand and brown clay. With this many different soil types on a single farm, you would almost need samples from every pen wouldn't you? On wild deer, yes all the soil types should more or less equal out, but pen raised deer are more limited in their travels and thus they might be way off baseline.
Another potential problem would be soil transfer. Example; in attempt to neutralize some acid soil we had a load of crushed limestone brought in from southern Nebraska. Perhaps deer from that pen catches some dreaded disease and dies. The isotope test comes back saying the deer is from a southern region of NE. Since no deer farms are in that area, obviously that deer orginated from the wild and obviously we are guilty of a multitude of crimes even though that deer was born in the pen he died in.
I think it's good research, but the application might be problematic as a test.
Jack, I do my part. Thing is everybody should be reporting illegal activity and frankly it does not happen because this is such a tight knit group everyone if afraid of making the wrong people mad or getting "black listed". Tell me Jack have you known of or heard of any animals being moved illegally? Have you contacted the authorities about this? Why not? Nobody wants there name out there as a snitch. Especially in this business.
Donna Heinrich said:
I didn't address microchips as that is not what whtl sanct was talking about. He specifically mentioned plastic tags, ear tags, and tatoos. Who out there requires microchips?
fars said:
Fars, you bring up some good points. I agree that it could be problematic as a definitive test for deer farms but the applications for wild deer could be very beneficial. Also, while the soil type within the pen does play a role in the isotopes we could detect in the deer, there are several other factors that would help to negate that problem. The isotopic signature of an area comes not only from the soil but also from the water, air, and feed. So, if you feed pelleted ration or a special mix which is made from local ingredients it might still be possible to pinpoint a location given these other factors. Given your example of the crushed limestone, it's doubtful that the deer would exhibit an isotopic signature specific to Nebraska because of the other factors but I see your point.
Truby,
I didn't even think of water and feed! All our feed comes from quite a bit south further and the water is a mix of surface ponds or pumped from a well 180 feet down. So I don't think it's going to correspond well with the local wild deer, but the air is the same..
I wouldn't be against sending you some samples, but we try not to work the deer in the winter monthes and even in the summer we try to have as little interaction with them as possiable. Have you tried hides for habitat? They have local drop off points. Also you might consider trying some of the sportsmen organizations. Some of them are seriously conserned about CWD and other deer diseases already and I am sure we would be glad to help.
Anything that could be done to learn the exact transmission route of CWD is likely to be benefically deer farmers. Currently, it seems if no one knows how CWD reached an area, deer farmers are blamed for lack of other evidence. I hope your project works out, though I imagine CWD isn't a top concern for the USDA.
I didn't even think of water and feed! All our feed comes from quite a bit south further and the water is a mix of surface ponds or pumped from a well 180 feet down. So I don't think it's going to correspond well with the local wild deer, but the air is the same..
I wouldn't be against sending you some samples, but we try not to work the deer in the winter monthes and even in the summer we try to have as little interaction with them as possiable. Have you tried hides for habitat? They have local drop off points. Also you might consider trying some of the sportsmen organizations. Some of them are seriously conserned about CWD and other deer diseases already and I am sure we would be glad to help.
Anything that could be done to learn the exact transmission route of CWD is likely to be benefically deer farmers. Currently, it seems if no one knows how CWD reached an area, deer farmers are blamed for lack of other evidence. I hope your project works out, though I imagine CWD isn't a top concern for the USDA.
wouldn't your research provide a better baseline by talking with local deer processors and hunters? There are so many variables that go into farmed animals that the statistical baselines would almost be unobtainable. May be a little late to get a lot of information this year but I would imagine by issuing statements through the local DNR offices asking for these items and ask for hunters cooperation you would be able to get a better geographical reference. After all it seems that deer farms are geographically isolated. How would you establish a reference sample from a state that didn't have any deer farms?
I do understand what the research would mean to tracking the disease, however I think this is the wrong way to go about it. Unless the research is really looking for something else, and that is the bigger question?
I do understand what the research would mean to tracking the disease, however I think this is the wrong way to go about it. Unless the research is really looking for something else, and that is the bigger question?
KC and Fars, I appreciate the input. The next step in our project would be to contact sportsmens associations and DNR offices. But, before we can do that, we have to find out if this type of testing will actually work on deer (although there is little doubt that it will work we have to have hard evidence). In order to prove that this method works we have to have samples that come from deer whose whereabouts for the last 3 months to a year are known. If we went with the hunter-killed samples first there would be no way to verify that the animal had been in that region for an appropriate period of time. Also, we don't need samples from every state we just need enough to verify that we can get a unique isotopic signature within a given range. That signature could then be correlated to isotopic maps which already exist.
Fars, I appreciate the offer to send in some samples but I completely understand not working your critters right now- if you'd be interested at any point in the future when you'll be working your deer please let me know. Oh, and while CWD isn't necessarily a top concern for the USDA as a whole it is of top concern to my particular department (I work for the wildlife services branch of the National Wildlife Research Center- specifically for the CWD project).
KC, I'm trying to be very honest about what we are trying to do with this research and as far as I know we're just looking to develop new methods to understand disease spread in order to benefit the wildlife community as a whole. That being said, I understand that you might be somewhat leary of government projects because of past experiences.
Fars, I appreciate the offer to send in some samples but I completely understand not working your critters right now- if you'd be interested at any point in the future when you'll be working your deer please let me know. Oh, and while CWD isn't necessarily a top concern for the USDA as a whole it is of top concern to my particular department (I work for the wildlife services branch of the National Wildlife Research Center- specifically for the CWD project).
KC, I'm trying to be very honest about what we are trying to do with this research and as far as I know we're just looking to develop new methods to understand disease spread in order to benefit the wildlife community as a whole. That being said, I understand that you might be somewhat leary of government projects because of past experiences.
Truby do I undrstand correctly that that this method works only on samples that come from deer whose whereabouts for the last 3 months to a year are known? How would this type of variable location data be useful? If you were to locate a diseased animal, how would you know its "origin" if the tracers are only good back to 12 months or so and the gestation period on the disease is 12-16 months? By the time deer with CWD become symptomatic, they may have exceeded the window for your test to be accurate. I guess I need to do some more research into this to fully understand the validity of the test. I want to be certain the USDA isn't going to develop this into an accepted standard like their TB screening test and have something that gives as many false positives as that.
Truby,
I have always worked with the USDA and the Oklahoma Department of Agriculture on many issues that I feel help the deer farmers and those departments work together for the common good. I find the majority of Ag related government employee's to just be a bunch of farmers and ranchers with degree's. Kinda like me except better educated. I have spent countless days flying to Washington D.C. and driving to Oklahoma City working on prospective CWD rules. AS I WRITE THIS I HAVE WAITED 7 YEARS FOR THE CWD UM&R TO BE TAKEN FROM SOMEONES DESK AND PUT INTO FORCE. I WAS THINKING MAYBE AFTER YA'LL FINISH THAT YOU COULD START THE ISOTOPE RESEARCH. There are several issues that make farmers reluctant to work with the Government on any front. Well for instance, I see you are at Fort Collins. I can't remember very well but CWD came from somewhere out in Colorado didn't it. Hope those folks have started observing the biosecurity measures out there. Please don't let any more diseases out of the research facility there to devestate our industry. Farmers have had to pay the price for the endangered species act as well, losing property for any number of reasons. Then there was the spotted owl debacle, which if you get down to it, loggers are farmers as well. Now we have the wolves reintroduced to the greater Yellowstone area. With a promise of a few packs of wolves that would take 50 years to reach the number that the so called preservasionists wanted to roam there. Well we have surpassed that by hundreds and the elk bulls left there have developed homosexual tendencies since the wolves have killed and eaten almost all of their prospective female lovers. Now the cattle ranchers in the area that were called alarmist and self serving, are having their cattle eaten at a rate that is shocking. I could go on and on about things like West Nile, but everyone knows what I am saying here. I figure you to be a person of good character, raised on a farm or ranch and have the best in mind for all involved. The problem with the government agencies are not the initial intent of an idea, its how it can be bent around by other agencies or folks with a score to settle or further an agenda. Someday Truby I'll buy you a beer and tell you the story of how the USFWS raided my home, tore it to pieces and charged me with felonies in a Federal Court over a few deer that I had permission by the Secretary of Agriculture and the State Vet to bring to Oklahoma. Never did figure out why they had to check the wife's underware drawer for deer related items. To your credit, the USDA (big wigs in Washington) and all those involved from the Oklahoma Department of Ag, fought tooth and nail for me. I will always be grateful for that. It didn't change anything much but was just nice to see them all do what was right. I bet you know that Oklahoma State Vet real well. If you see him tell him I said hi. He is a standup guy.
I have always worked with the USDA and the Oklahoma Department of Agriculture on many issues that I feel help the deer farmers and those departments work together for the common good. I find the majority of Ag related government employee's to just be a bunch of farmers and ranchers with degree's. Kinda like me except better educated. I have spent countless days flying to Washington D.C. and driving to Oklahoma City working on prospective CWD rules. AS I WRITE THIS I HAVE WAITED 7 YEARS FOR THE CWD UM&R TO BE TAKEN FROM SOMEONES DESK AND PUT INTO FORCE. I WAS THINKING MAYBE AFTER YA'LL FINISH THAT YOU COULD START THE ISOTOPE RESEARCH. There are several issues that make farmers reluctant to work with the Government on any front. Well for instance, I see you are at Fort Collins. I can't remember very well but CWD came from somewhere out in Colorado didn't it. Hope those folks have started observing the biosecurity measures out there. Please don't let any more diseases out of the research facility there to devestate our industry. Farmers have had to pay the price for the endangered species act as well, losing property for any number of reasons. Then there was the spotted owl debacle, which if you get down to it, loggers are farmers as well. Now we have the wolves reintroduced to the greater Yellowstone area. With a promise of a few packs of wolves that would take 50 years to reach the number that the so called preservasionists wanted to roam there. Well we have surpassed that by hundreds and the elk bulls left there have developed homosexual tendencies since the wolves have killed and eaten almost all of their prospective female lovers. Now the cattle ranchers in the area that were called alarmist and self serving, are having their cattle eaten at a rate that is shocking. I could go on and on about things like West Nile, but everyone knows what I am saying here. I figure you to be a person of good character, raised on a farm or ranch and have the best in mind for all involved. The problem with the government agencies are not the initial intent of an idea, its how it can be bent around by other agencies or folks with a score to settle or further an agenda. Someday Truby I'll buy you a beer and tell you the story of how the USFWS raided my home, tore it to pieces and charged me with felonies in a Federal Court over a few deer that I had permission by the Secretary of Agriculture and the State Vet to bring to Oklahoma. Never did figure out why they had to check the wife's underware drawer for deer related items. To your credit, the USDA (big wigs in Washington) and all those involved from the Oklahoma Department of Ag, fought tooth and nail for me. I will always be grateful for that. It didn't change anything much but was just nice to see them all do what was right. I bet you know that Oklahoma State Vet real well. If you see him tell him I said hi. He is a standup guy.
Scott Heinrich said:
Scott, this method should work to trace origins of animals whose origins are unknown. For this stage, we are trying to prove that the concept works and therefore we need samples from known origins. The tracers could potentially be good for a much longer time period than 1 year depending on what tissues are used for the test (i.e. hoof samples would represent a much longer time period than hair while muscle tissue/blood could potentially represent a shorter time period). There are no plans for this to become an accepted standard test of any kind (according to my supervisor and he's a stand up guy), and again the primary application would be to help understand movement/transmission patterns. I'd be more than happy to send some articles on this type of research if you'd be interested.
Tim, I understand your frustration. You wouldn't believe how many things we can't get put into practice because someone who spends their life behind a desk and never sets foot outside doesn't understand the importance of actually applying the research that we pour our lives into. As for CWD originating in Fort Collins, yes, it this does seem to be the epicenter. Speaking for myself and my project, we are extremely careful with biosecurity issues (double fencing, dedicated boots/clothing, disinfectant, working on an environmental decontaminant). Unfortunately, many of the issues you address have been poorly handled and, as you say, things are often bent out of shape by people who are looking out only for themselves. In an ideal world we could all work together and actually accomplish something but for whatever reason there is still a lot of inter-agency competition which often leads to poor communication and self-serving actions. I'd love to get that beer sometime and hear your stories, it is my unfortunate privilege to be part of a generation which rarely takes time to listen and learn from people with more experience and I'd like to be one of the few who can learn from past mistakes and injustices so that I can do my best not to repeat them.
Truby,
I may be a lousy judge of character(but in this case I think not), but when reading all your posts, I felt you are very sincere and have a high moral character. I feel that I am right. I agree so much with what you say and it is a shame someone like yourself would not be able to accomplish actual good things because of the misdeeds of others. Its just like the CWD issue itself. While at USAHA one time it seemed that some folks were only interested in pointing fingers about who spreads CWD. I stood up and told them, if you point your finger at me I will do my best to bend it backwards. We have CWD in the United States. At this point what does it matter how we got it. The real question is what are we going to do about it. I believe we should all work together to figure out the best way to stop or control it. As deer farmers, we are able to basicly eradicate it from farmed cervids over a period of time through monitoring our herds. Apparently the wild herds are the basis of the most concern. However as we are regulated to death, states that don't allow deer importation(Texas, Alabama ect) will willingly allow you to bring home carcasses from endimic areas of the country, dump the remains in the back forty and then point their finger at the closest deer farm when CWD breaks out. I think that is what grinds deer farmers the most. I feel fortunate to be from Oklahoma, where the state government and the people seem to have alot of common sense. We work together to make sure we can do business while making sure all is protected. In those states that don't allow importation or Texas that won't even allow us to drive through with a USDA sealed trailer, just proves to me the motivation is not about CWD, but about some fat cats lining their pockets. The best way to get deer farmers working on your side, have the Federal USDA call BS on the Texas transportation ban, get the UM&R out and get the blood test done for TB in Cervids. Now thats the things we need. Lets get this done and I assure you I will personally deliver you all the isotopes you could dream of. We both know thats probably not going to happen to fast. I have developed a lot of respect for you. You could have tucked tail and run, but instead have stayed and logically discussed your issues. I appreciate that. The beer is a done deal and maybe you should come to Oklahoma and speak at our deer farmer convention. By the way you didn't say if you knew our former state vet. Thank you Truby, you are a patriot and not a pinhead.
I may be a lousy judge of character(but in this case I think not), but when reading all your posts, I felt you are very sincere and have a high moral character. I feel that I am right. I agree so much with what you say and it is a shame someone like yourself would not be able to accomplish actual good things because of the misdeeds of others. Its just like the CWD issue itself. While at USAHA one time it seemed that some folks were only interested in pointing fingers about who spreads CWD. I stood up and told them, if you point your finger at me I will do my best to bend it backwards. We have CWD in the United States. At this point what does it matter how we got it. The real question is what are we going to do about it. I believe we should all work together to figure out the best way to stop or control it. As deer farmers, we are able to basicly eradicate it from farmed cervids over a period of time through monitoring our herds. Apparently the wild herds are the basis of the most concern. However as we are regulated to death, states that don't allow deer importation(Texas, Alabama ect) will willingly allow you to bring home carcasses from endimic areas of the country, dump the remains in the back forty and then point their finger at the closest deer farm when CWD breaks out. I think that is what grinds deer farmers the most. I feel fortunate to be from Oklahoma, where the state government and the people seem to have alot of common sense. We work together to make sure we can do business while making sure all is protected. In those states that don't allow importation or Texas that won't even allow us to drive through with a USDA sealed trailer, just proves to me the motivation is not about CWD, but about some fat cats lining their pockets. The best way to get deer farmers working on your side, have the Federal USDA call BS on the Texas transportation ban, get the UM&R out and get the blood test done for TB in Cervids. Now thats the things we need. Lets get this done and I assure you I will personally deliver you all the isotopes you could dream of. We both know thats probably not going to happen to fast. I have developed a lot of respect for you. You could have tucked tail and run, but instead have stayed and logically discussed your issues. I appreciate that. The beer is a done deal and maybe you should come to Oklahoma and speak at our deer farmer convention. By the way you didn't say if you knew our former state vet. Thank you Truby, you are a patriot and not a pinhead.
Very well said Tim. ( and only 150 lines) lol. We need some good folks in the goverment agencies that know what it takes to get a farmed product to market. Truby, i would like to hear you speak at the Whitetails of Oklahoma meeting. It would make for some lively conversation. ( and maybe, just maybe keep ol' Tim silent for 10 seconds) Good luck with your project.
Tim Condict said:
Thanks Tim, I appreciate that and I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees the futility of pointing fingers. What's done is done let's all try to solve the problems instead of adding to them by trying to place blame. As to the question of whether or not I've met the former Oklahoma state vet, I don't believe I've had that honor but he sounds like my kind of guy.
I received a call from a NADeFA member that remembered Tara from the NADeFA conference last year and was wondering if I was still supportive of this research and if so, thought I could offer a little more information here.
I introduced Tara last year at the NADeFA conference and did my best to explain her project and the benefits it would have for our industry. Tara works with Kurt Vercauteren, Kurt has also spoke at our NADeFA conference and has done several projects that are beneficial to our industry. I apologize for not having the time to address everyone's concerns or questions, but would like to state that I do support this project and thought Tara was very well received by those that took the time to talk to her in person. If anyone needs more specific answer please give me a call or email.
As for the case of illegal deer movement. We have nothing to hide, the case in South Carolina was in all the media and is no secret. The industry does not support this kind of activity and I would recommend that if DSJM has information to prove otherwise, that they would contact their local DNR or Dept of Ag and report it.
Shawn Schafer
Executive Director
North American Deer Farmers Association
I introduced Tara last year at the NADeFA conference and did my best to explain her project and the benefits it would have for our industry. Tara works with Kurt Vercauteren, Kurt has also spoke at our NADeFA conference and has done several projects that are beneficial to our industry. I apologize for not having the time to address everyone's concerns or questions, but would like to state that I do support this project and thought Tara was very well received by those that took the time to talk to her in person. If anyone needs more specific answer please give me a call or email.
As for the case of illegal deer movement. We have nothing to hide, the case in South Carolina was in all the media and is no secret. The industry does not support this kind of activity and I would recommend that if DSJM has information to prove otherwise, that they would contact their local DNR or Dept of Ag and report it.
Shawn Schafer
Executive Director
North American Deer Farmers Association
Tara
We are approaching the time of year, when the bucks will be dropping their antlers and the producers will be working and testing their herds. If you can get me an update explaining your project and what you need for samples and where to send them, I will run it in the NADeFA newsletter to serve as a reminder for everyone that talked to you last spring.
Merry Christmas
Shawn
We are approaching the time of year, when the bucks will be dropping their antlers and the producers will be working and testing their herds. If you can get me an update explaining your project and what you need for samples and where to send them, I will run it in the NADeFA newsletter to serve as a reminder for everyone that talked to you last spring.
Merry Christmas
Shawn
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