Joined May 2009
2,369 Posts | 0+
Chillicothe, Missouri
Memo to Deer Industry Stakeholders
- Thread starter Russell
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Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
I agree rodger. I bought my deer to enjoy them.They talk about killing our deer after we name them and care for them like family.well my nextdoor farmer raises beef and the kids are in 4h club and they raise them with names and then sell for beef.I know 2 different animals but really the same deal.You show me a deer anywhere in the wild or any animal that lives the life that our deer do.They should be so luckey.No animal of anykind gets our kind of luv and treatment and if they they get disposed of in a humane way after the life they lead....I wish i was so lucky!!!
There are many, many reasons people raise deer. The love of the animal as pets such as dogs and cats ect. or the respect of a majestic animal and the coveted HUGE antlers that are not attainable in the wild. The huge antlers have me anticipating on what next years antlers will look like and the cash flow stimulated to pay our expenses. But what I like best is seeing the hunters excitement as he harvest the biggest buck in his life.
I do like my deer. I like my cat. I like my job. I love my wife, children, neighbors, friends, and God. Every thing else is a gift and thing else is a idol.
I do like my deer. I like my cat. I like my job. I love my wife, children, neighbors, friends, and God. Every thing else is a gift and thing else is a idol.
I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion and everyone is going to have a different idea on things this doesn;t make one guy right one guy wrong. To each his own we should never tell others how to raise their deer. All we can do is let people know what works best for us and give them a idea if they like then so be it or they can do the same for us and if we like so be it. there are many pros and cons to bottle feeding deer and there are many pros and cons to not but lets get real we all raise deer cause we love doing it and if we are forced or told to do something we don't like we are not going to enjoy it any more. I think there are many good ideas and points here but, we need to be focused on what best fits what we are trying to accomplish. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion lets keep it that way and fight for that.
Joined Apr 2009
2,617 Posts | 0+
Edgar, WI
John Swank said:
Well, John I thought I knew you better than that. Unless this is another carefully planned ironic approach to showing your point about the issue. Maybe not.
So is this your formal announcement or did I miss an earlier one where you say you will no longer be artificially breeding hundreds of does each year for your self and others. I mean there sure isn't anything natural about artificial breeding. Nor is there anything natural in planned breeding programs either. So all those talks we had about line breeding, and all those posts on the forums were a horrible thing I guess.
Now about this idea of raising a deer and "claiming to love it" just to sell it like a slab of meat. We have been offered some CRAZY money for a couple of our does. Laurie said nope, because they are her babies. I can tell you that Dolly will NEVER leave the farm. We may sell her once we get daughters from her but the buyer will have to understand that she stays here. Some deer are just special.
But what is wrong with selling our does we bottle raised, cared for, and love? As I have said several times now in this thread, I don't agree with bottle raising deer that you intend to sell or will have no other outlet than to sell to a hunting ranch.
But if I choose to sell a bottle raised doe that we care about because we have gotten daughters from her what is wrong with that? I don't sell my does to hunting ranches. I sell to other breeders looking for quality breeding stock. Yes, at auction I can't control who gets them, but during the off the farm sales I can. I have sold does in the past with stipulations. Once we sold 2 girls who were obviously very close to the same buyer. The stipulation was they had to be kept together. And he was not sell one from the other.
We care deeply for the animals AND for the responsibilities we have assumed by being the owners of these creatures.
Wayne makes some great points as well. As the established breeders we owe it to the new folks to sell them the finest and most productive animals we can. A dead deer has a hard time producing anything. So why sell them deer that are more likely to kill themselfs on a fence. Things happen, we all know that. But the idea of selling wild does sucks.
Again, it all comes down to each farms goals, and the responsibilities that each grower wants to assume.
My goal is to sell the finest breeding stock I can. I choose to bottle feed my doe fawns. With that choice I assume the responsibility of making sure each of my does find homes and are not sent to hunting ranches.
Another farms goals might be different in that they choose not to worry about finding homes for all their does. They then eat them, or sell for venison, or to hunt ranches.
This is a great discussion. One that will maybe help new people decide what their own goals are in this industry. And what level of responsibility they are willing to assume. If they make the choice to bottle feed they will then see the need to deal in animals more likely to hold their value. Because they will need to find homes for the does they have extra.
Joined Apr 2009
524 Posts | 0+
Russell, MN
B100888 said:
I use the 4H analogy just about everytime I talk to people. They ask me...how are you going to be able to sell these deer that you bottle raise? I was in 4H from 8 yrs until 18 and I took beef cattle all those years. Anybody that has been in 4H and took beef as a project knows the time that you have to put into them. I always made it State Fair so I always had extra time. Our steers were so tame by then you could lay on them and take naps. At the end of the Fair, you sell them at the auction. We all knew where they were going. It wasn't people buying them for pets to feed on their farms. It was the packing plants....you cried, then moved on...there would be more animals next year. People actually understand that concept and say...I never thought of it that way.
Joined Apr 2009
1,485 Posts | 0+
Vaughn, MT 59487
Most livestock animals we raise are being raised for food. Is there some written rule we deer farmers don't know about that says we can't enjoy or love raising deer? Is there a rule we are to hate the animals we raise so some can be harvested for food. I don't think so.
We all place ourselves in the lives of the animals we raise. I want to have fun raising these animals. I don't think any of us can breed out the instincts these deer have in our lifetime. I say this because deer I raised on my farm in small pens were tame but when moved to the hunting ranch would take only a few weeks to be just like wild deer. The hiding and instincts that protect deer from predators kicks in and they quickly revert back to being just a deer. Break the food dependability and 90% of the deer quickly go back to being deer in just a few weeks.
In summer my small pens are not used and the deer are left in large 60 acre pens. The same deer which would stand 5 feet from me are now 100 plus footers or at the other side of the 60 acres.
If hunting ranches were to place the deer in the summer and leave them alone to fend for food by themselves by hunting time the deer would be just like wild deer. When I had the hunting ranch I would do this and my elk and deer at hunting time were not pets anymore.
Antis will always find things to criticize the raising of deer, it's just their way. My opinion is if I can't pet some of the deer or bottle raise them I might as well raise hogs or cattle cause I don't give a hoot about them.
We all place ourselves in the lives of the animals we raise. I want to have fun raising these animals. I don't think any of us can breed out the instincts these deer have in our lifetime. I say this because deer I raised on my farm in small pens were tame but when moved to the hunting ranch would take only a few weeks to be just like wild deer. The hiding and instincts that protect deer from predators kicks in and they quickly revert back to being just a deer. Break the food dependability and 90% of the deer quickly go back to being deer in just a few weeks.
In summer my small pens are not used and the deer are left in large 60 acre pens. The same deer which would stand 5 feet from me are now 100 plus footers or at the other side of the 60 acres.
If hunting ranches were to place the deer in the summer and leave them alone to fend for food by themselves by hunting time the deer would be just like wild deer. When I had the hunting ranch I would do this and my elk and deer at hunting time were not pets anymore.
Antis will always find things to criticize the raising of deer, it's just their way. My opinion is if I can't pet some of the deer or bottle raise them I might as well raise hogs or cattle cause I don't give a hoot about them.
Joined Apr 2009
2,617 Posts | 0+
Edgar, WI
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
Very nicely said jack!!!!!!!!!! I saw that here on a hunting ranch and its just as you said.
Though im sure what rodger said means it all.There are some of our very best ones that will stay on the farm and live a life that will never be seen in any other animal.Those very tame ones might not revert back to wild and thats why they will never go. EVER
Though im sure what rodger said means it all.There are some of our very best ones that will stay on the farm and live a life that will never be seen in any other animal.Those very tame ones might not revert back to wild and thats why they will never go. EVER
Joined May 2009
2,369 Posts | 0+
Chillicothe, Missouri
Roger,Susan,Jack,B100800, Very well said indeed! Susan, We buy a couple cows each year to raise 1 to butcher and one to butcher to sell to pay for ours and every year my wife names them,rubs on em,gives em treats all the time KNOWING thier end fate....BUT that makes THIER stay at our farm no less IMPORTANT!!!!!! We just feel we OWE them that much in the CYCLE of life!
Joined Apr 2009
1,485 Posts | 0+
Vaughn, MT 59487
I have bull elk pushing 20 years old. They were good to me money wise and have never been a safety problem. I have cow elk which are dog tame and pets and are quite old. Genetically they should be culled but their friendliness has spared them from slaughter. They have a place here till they die. Same with some of the deer I raise. As caretakers we have this luxury.
Like all of us, I don't want to go back to fence bangers which kill themselves at the drop of a hat. Wild deer have no place on a farm which raise them in this day and age. Like I said they will revert back to the wild when allowed too and food is not what they want from us.
Like all of us, I don't want to go back to fence bangers which kill themselves at the drop of a hat. Wild deer have no place on a farm which raise them in this day and age. Like I said they will revert back to the wild when allowed too and food is not what they want from us.
Folks, look - I am not trying to be negative or cast negativity. I am only thinking "outside the box". No where did I, or Len, say you "SHOULD" or "SHOULD NOT" bottle feed your fawns, nor did I, or Len, say you cannot enjoy and love raising your animals. Please reread the posts in their entirety.
Having the opportunity to talk with hundreds, if not thousands, of hunters each year as well as being a guest speaker on a Alabama hunting related radio talk show, I get to see first hand the general hunting communities perception on hunting behind the fence and shooting what they call "Bambi". Having read Len's memo in its entirety I can fully relate to his concerns.
First and foremost, a Whitetailed Deer got its name from being an elusive animal that for the most part is usually running majestically away from humans/hunters while flashing its WHITE TAIL - hence the name Whitetailed Deer. If the animal would have run up to the early settlers of this country and "licked or followed the settlers around", dont you think they would have been called the "licking, lovable or following deer" instead?
For many many generations hunters have created tales, folk lures and even myths relating to the abilities and elusiveness of the whitetail deer. This my friends is what makes the whitetailed deer majestic and the most sought after game animal in the world by hunters. When we as deer farmers lose sight if this fact we are contributing to the destruction of all that is majestic about the whitetailed deer. As I've pointed out in my last post, I am troubled that the industry is losing sight of everything that is sacred about the whitetailed deer and in turn wondering why the general hunting population is opposed to what we do.
Being that this is a "members only" section and shut off from the outside world (for the most part) I am going to post the good, bad and ugly in its entirety as we are all familiar with the "truth" about deer farming as well as what happens in the preserves.
Having had several years in moving shooter bucks to many different hunting preserves and hearing first hand some of the horror stories, as well as hunting deer myself for some 35 odd years, I think slaughter animals are killed more humanly. I am not hear to debate the slaughter point or issues, it is what it is, but don't try to sugar coat the "ethical kill" that takes place while hunting in a preserve. I've shot more than my fair share of animals in my lifetime and know first hand that a well placed .22 shot to the head of a 1500 lb slaughter beef will drop it in its tracks, unlike the recommended front shoulder shot to a deer with a high powered rifle or 2" broadhead. So let's try to keep it real and leave the sugar coating for the donuts.
Getting to the meat and potatoes on the "public's perception" surrounding what we do as deer farmers, that is the real subject of this topic. Len brings up some very good points whether you elect to accept them or not. He is spot on with his concerns about "tame deer" as evident by the same responses I get from the many hunters I talk to. I agree, many of the "preserve owners" talk to many hundreds of hunters each year too, but it's a totally different niche of hunters. Those hunters do not have a problem with what we do and their opinions are totally irrelevant for being classified within the general hunting population. I am talking about the elitists, the hardcore purest and the down home good ol' boys that make up the largest portion of the "general hunting population".
It is this group of guys that we as an industry need to appeal to in order to grow and gain popularity. Yea, Keith Warren is cashing in "trying" to appeal to that group but is falling short in my opinion - based on the results shown from the discussions on hunting forums on the net. How are we to gain respect when we are able to walk into a pen full of deer and they all come running to us? This is what the general population see's - they see the deer (a doe and fawns are also hunted animals too) running to us instead of away from us. Or better yet, hunters are able to ride around in a Ranger and find a buck that is just standing there while the hunter gets out, after banging his gun on the roll cage, fumbles around while he loads his gun, and STILL all the while, some 15-30 seconds later, the MONSTER BUCK OF A LIFETIME just stands there at 60 yards and even grants the hunter the opportunity to look through the binoculars before he pulls up to shoot it.
Hmm, this hunting flick storyboard doesn't sound all that appealing or persuasive now does it? Are we as an industry really offering to chance to shoot a majestic whitetail that tales are really made of or are we shooting Bambi?
You can decide honestly for yourself if this is how you as a hunter picture taking your buck of a lifetime. Just remember one thing, it is the general public's perception that decides what legislation is passed against us.
Moving on to replying to some of the posts. Please understand I am not "forcing" my opinions on anyone. I am merely asking you to take a good honest look at where I am coming from and consider the points from the "general hunting populations perspective" and then and only then form your own gut feeling opinions. I am not here to dictate anything only to share a point of view as seen by the so many that are opposed to what we do.
Roger, you do know me better than you think. Yes, it is a carefully planned ironic approach, but it is now apparent that I didn't plan enough. I wasn;t rrying to come off as "pushing my opinions" but I think that is how most people took it. I was trying to get people to use their noodle a little and deeply consider what Len was saying. It was really hard for people to absorb the message Len was trying to convey when you followed with the "Love the Fawns" tool to counter his objectives. Most of the following posts had lost the context of his message and turned the discussion into another bottle feeding topic. That's not the only point Len was trying make, IMO.
It's all good though. I thought I would tactfully try to steer the discussion back on track of "how the general public perceives bottle raised deer in relation to the hunting side of our business", but you busted me..
Actually Roger, I have never once in all the years I raised deer had the opportunity to A/I at my farm. After breeding for everyone else the last thing I wanted to do was breed more deer.
And yes, two years ago was my last year for traveling and breeding, although I had 11 farms this year that called an insisted I do their deer and offered to pay double the fee (I never charged it though). I guess when you are hitting 80% and 90% conceptions while bi & tri-splitting cervically it's hard to trust someone else to do it for you. So NO - I am not longer doing any A/I work as most of the newer folks only express concern in the expected worth of the fawns that will born. When asked what improvement to the genetics characteristics they are hoping to improve upon, most of the replies are only concentrated around the selling price or worth of the fawns. If I've said it once I've said it a thousand times; a $10,000 doe bred to a $10,000 buck does not make a $20,000 fawn - no matter how you slice it. This breeding mentality is that of which promotes hip dysplasia, among many other genetic defects, in dogs.
I will address your other breeding points in more details below.
Thank you Roger, I will take that as the first official "public" thank you that I received from you. I was starting to wonder if you were ever going acknowledge the fact of all those 3 and 5 year breeding plan pedigree emails and phone calls and the last minute discussions on which deer you should buy at the top 30 and how it would/could "fit in" with your current Flee's bloodlines. You are Welcome and I am glad to see it worked out really well for you. Keep an eye on the end product at 6 generations.
Now about line breeding. Roger, you chose specific genetic improvements to base your breeding upon and I never once sensed an ounce of "greed" in your ambitions. At that time you truly wanted to produce genetically superior deer and had no indication that you were doing it for the money. I sensed you really did want to improve the deer or I would have never helped you in the first place. Don't take this the wrong way, you may want to revisit those ambitions that lead you where you are today. You started something that was about improving on and sustaining the breed characteristics. Do NOT stray far from that objective. I have stated and quoted it many many time in those Line Breeding discussions on the forums; losing sight of your initial objective and breed improvement plan is the number one reason and the surest way for failure in line-breeding.
Now about breeding in general. Breeding has NOTHING, and I mean absolutely NOTHING, to do with the hunter's perception of tame deer. Most hunters understand the concept and importance of preserving good genetics through selective & assisted breeding. That is not some much a "public perception" issue. The issue is when a pen full of fawns come running to the fence when the hunters (or potential hunters) arrive at the lodge. Remember, the general population hunter will hunt fawns, does and buck - they are all fair game to them on the outside world. All they see and comprehend is a bunch of tame deer running towards them instead of running away from them - hence the terms "tame" and "are you are going to sell me a hunt for Bambi".
I can see the problem straight in the eye. I also feel Len and several others can see it too. However, I feel it is my fault for not having the ability to express the issues in words so it can be easily understood and comprehended and for my inabilities, I truly apologize.
Hi Jack, very good point. I'd like to put this into perspective n regards to the topic of this thread, if I may. The food indusrty is not turning chickens, turkey, cattle, sheep, goats or pigs loose in a semi controlled environment and allowing John Q Public to opportunity to harvest his own "trophy beef". The food industry does not have a large group of oppositional "cow hunters" hunting the states free ranging natural resource. Comparing hunting in a preserve to the food industry is like comparing apples to oranges - no comparison what so ever.
Again, referring to Len's Memo, are we raising food for the food industry or are we raising game animals for the hunting industry? I'd be a bit concerned of relating deer farming entirely to the food production industry. After all, there are strict slaughter protocols put in place on how food producing animals are slaughtered. I really don't think we want that in this industry, do we?
We all want to have fun an enjoy the animals. I don't think this point has anything to do with the opening post of this thread. It was Roger that injected this context to the thread. The topic in general is about the public's perception of deer farming and how we as an industry can improve on that image in order to sustain growth. I apologize if I am pointing out the obvious, but that is what I understood the topic of this as being.
Jack, I could not agree with you more. But for the sake of keeping on topic, it is hard to convince the general hunting public of this fact when a pen full of bottle fed fawns and adult doe come running the the fence.
Here is what the general hunting public will always think about bottle raised deer or animals for that matter, regardless of of how much in advance they are put in a preserve.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiGKWoJi5qM
Please take a moment to watch this video - it will be well worth it.
I agree and think we can handle the Anti's (vegan's and tree huggers) as an industry, but how do we as an industry gain the support of the general hunting population? I personally think, IMO, that giving some of the majestic features of the whitetailed deer back to the general hunters would be a great first step.
How do we do this? Len has laid out some really good ideas for us to ponder over, which we are doing....
.
Having the opportunity to talk with hundreds, if not thousands, of hunters each year as well as being a guest speaker on a Alabama hunting related radio talk show, I get to see first hand the general hunting communities perception on hunting behind the fence and shooting what they call "Bambi". Having read Len's memo in its entirety I can fully relate to his concerns.
First and foremost, a Whitetailed Deer got its name from being an elusive animal that for the most part is usually running majestically away from humans/hunters while flashing its WHITE TAIL - hence the name Whitetailed Deer. If the animal would have run up to the early settlers of this country and "licked or followed the settlers around", dont you think they would have been called the "licking, lovable or following deer" instead?
For many many generations hunters have created tales, folk lures and even myths relating to the abilities and elusiveness of the whitetail deer. This my friends is what makes the whitetailed deer majestic and the most sought after game animal in the world by hunters. When we as deer farmers lose sight if this fact we are contributing to the destruction of all that is majestic about the whitetailed deer. As I've pointed out in my last post, I am troubled that the industry is losing sight of everything that is sacred about the whitetailed deer and in turn wondering why the general hunting population is opposed to what we do.
Being that this is a "members only" section and shut off from the outside world (for the most part) I am going to post the good, bad and ugly in its entirety as we are all familiar with the "truth" about deer farming as well as what happens in the preserves.
Having had several years in moving shooter bucks to many different hunting preserves and hearing first hand some of the horror stories, as well as hunting deer myself for some 35 odd years, I think slaughter animals are killed more humanly. I am not hear to debate the slaughter point or issues, it is what it is, but don't try to sugar coat the "ethical kill" that takes place while hunting in a preserve. I've shot more than my fair share of animals in my lifetime and know first hand that a well placed .22 shot to the head of a 1500 lb slaughter beef will drop it in its tracks, unlike the recommended front shoulder shot to a deer with a high powered rifle or 2" broadhead. So let's try to keep it real and leave the sugar coating for the donuts.
Getting to the meat and potatoes on the "public's perception" surrounding what we do as deer farmers, that is the real subject of this topic. Len brings up some very good points whether you elect to accept them or not. He is spot on with his concerns about "tame deer" as evident by the same responses I get from the many hunters I talk to. I agree, many of the "preserve owners" talk to many hundreds of hunters each year too, but it's a totally different niche of hunters. Those hunters do not have a problem with what we do and their opinions are totally irrelevant for being classified within the general hunting population. I am talking about the elitists, the hardcore purest and the down home good ol' boys that make up the largest portion of the "general hunting population".
It is this group of guys that we as an industry need to appeal to in order to grow and gain popularity. Yea, Keith Warren is cashing in "trying" to appeal to that group but is falling short in my opinion - based on the results shown from the discussions on hunting forums on the net. How are we to gain respect when we are able to walk into a pen full of deer and they all come running to us? This is what the general population see's - they see the deer (a doe and fawns are also hunted animals too) running to us instead of away from us. Or better yet, hunters are able to ride around in a Ranger and find a buck that is just standing there while the hunter gets out, after banging his gun on the roll cage, fumbles around while he loads his gun, and STILL all the while, some 15-30 seconds later, the MONSTER BUCK OF A LIFETIME just stands there at 60 yards and even grants the hunter the opportunity to look through the binoculars before he pulls up to shoot it.
Hmm, this hunting flick storyboard doesn't sound all that appealing or persuasive now does it? Are we as an industry really offering to chance to shoot a majestic whitetail that tales are really made of or are we shooting Bambi?
You can decide honestly for yourself if this is how you as a hunter picture taking your buck of a lifetime. Just remember one thing, it is the general public's perception that decides what legislation is passed against us.
Moving on to replying to some of the posts. Please understand I am not "forcing" my opinions on anyone. I am merely asking you to take a good honest look at where I am coming from and consider the points from the "general hunting populations perspective" and then and only then form your own gut feeling opinions. I am not here to dictate anything only to share a point of view as seen by the so many that are opposed to what we do.
IndependenceRanch said:
Roger, you do know me better than you think. Yes, it is a carefully planned ironic approach, but it is now apparent that I didn't plan enough. I wasn;t rrying to come off as "pushing my opinions" but I think that is how most people took it. I was trying to get people to use their noodle a little and deeply consider what Len was saying. It was really hard for people to absorb the message Len was trying to convey when you followed with the "Love the Fawns" tool to counter his objectives. Most of the following posts had lost the context of his message and turned the discussion into another bottle feeding topic. That's not the only point Len was trying make, IMO.
It's all good though. I thought I would tactfully try to steer the discussion back on track of "how the general public perceives bottle raised deer in relation to the hunting side of our business", but you busted me..
IndependenceRanch said:
Actually Roger, I have never once in all the years I raised deer had the opportunity to A/I at my farm. After breeding for everyone else the last thing I wanted to do was breed more deer.
And yes, two years ago was my last year for traveling and breeding, although I had 11 farms this year that called an insisted I do their deer and offered to pay double the fee (I never charged it though). I guess when you are hitting 80% and 90% conceptions while bi & tri-splitting cervically it's hard to trust someone else to do it for you. So NO - I am not longer doing any A/I work as most of the newer folks only express concern in the expected worth of the fawns that will born. When asked what improvement to the genetics characteristics they are hoping to improve upon, most of the replies are only concentrated around the selling price or worth of the fawns. If I've said it once I've said it a thousand times; a $10,000 doe bred to a $10,000 buck does not make a $20,000 fawn - no matter how you slice it. This breeding mentality is that of which promotes hip dysplasia, among many other genetic defects, in dogs.
I will address your other breeding points in more details below.
IndependenceRanch said:
Thank you Roger, I will take that as the first official "public" thank you that I received from you. I was starting to wonder if you were ever going acknowledge the fact of all those 3 and 5 year breeding plan pedigree emails and phone calls and the last minute discussions on which deer you should buy at the top 30 and how it would/could "fit in" with your current Flee's bloodlines. You are Welcome and I am glad to see it worked out really well for you. Keep an eye on the end product at 6 generations.
Now about line breeding. Roger, you chose specific genetic improvements to base your breeding upon and I never once sensed an ounce of "greed" in your ambitions. At that time you truly wanted to produce genetically superior deer and had no indication that you were doing it for the money. I sensed you really did want to improve the deer or I would have never helped you in the first place. Don't take this the wrong way, you may want to revisit those ambitions that lead you where you are today. You started something that was about improving on and sustaining the breed characteristics. Do NOT stray far from that objective. I have stated and quoted it many many time in those Line Breeding discussions on the forums; losing sight of your initial objective and breed improvement plan is the number one reason and the surest way for failure in line-breeding.
Now about breeding in general. Breeding has NOTHING, and I mean absolutely NOTHING, to do with the hunter's perception of tame deer. Most hunters understand the concept and importance of preserving good genetics through selective & assisted breeding. That is not some much a "public perception" issue. The issue is when a pen full of fawns come running to the fence when the hunters (or potential hunters) arrive at the lodge. Remember, the general population hunter will hunt fawns, does and buck - they are all fair game to them on the outside world. All they see and comprehend is a bunch of tame deer running towards them instead of running away from them - hence the terms "tame" and "are you are going to sell me a hunt for Bambi".
I can see the problem straight in the eye. I also feel Len and several others can see it too. However, I feel it is my fault for not having the ability to express the issues in words so it can be easily understood and comprehended and for my inabilities, I truly apologize.
Jack said:
Hi Jack, very good point. I'd like to put this into perspective n regards to the topic of this thread, if I may. The food indusrty is not turning chickens, turkey, cattle, sheep, goats or pigs loose in a semi controlled environment and allowing John Q Public to opportunity to harvest his own "trophy beef". The food industry does not have a large group of oppositional "cow hunters" hunting the states free ranging natural resource. Comparing hunting in a preserve to the food industry is like comparing apples to oranges - no comparison what so ever.
Again, referring to Len's Memo, are we raising food for the food industry or are we raising game animals for the hunting industry? I'd be a bit concerned of relating deer farming entirely to the food production industry. After all, there are strict slaughter protocols put in place on how food producing animals are slaughtered. I really don't think we want that in this industry, do we?
Jack said:
We all want to have fun an enjoy the animals. I don't think this point has anything to do with the opening post of this thread. It was Roger that injected this context to the thread. The topic in general is about the public's perception of deer farming and how we as an industry can improve on that image in order to sustain growth. I apologize if I am pointing out the obvious, but that is what I understood the topic of this as being.
Jack said:
Jack, I could not agree with you more. But for the sake of keeping on topic, it is hard to convince the general hunting public of this fact when a pen full of bottle fed fawns and adult doe come running the the fence.
Here is what the general hunting public will always think about bottle raised deer or animals for that matter, regardless of of how much in advance they are put in a preserve.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiGKWoJi5qM
Please take a moment to watch this video - it will be well worth it.
Jack said:
I agree and think we can handle the Anti's (vegan's and tree huggers) as an industry, but how do we as an industry gain the support of the general hunting population? I personally think, IMO, that giving some of the majestic features of the whitetailed deer back to the general hunters would be a great first step.
How do we do this? Len has laid out some really good ideas for us to ponder over, which we are doing....
.
Joined May 2009
2,369 Posts | 0+
Chillicothe, Missouri
John, I just think its the perception of our industry,that if people come to your farm to pet your deer or just visit and thier crashing off the fence and going nuts people will pass the word around that you are keeping these animals and they want out and to me that just gives the tree huggers ammo to say they are being mistreated. i just think its important even if we know the end result for these animals to do our best to place our captive herds in a positive light.
Joined Apr 2009
2,617 Posts | 0+
Edgar, WI
I just popped on for a minute to see what was going on with the forums.
John, I didn't realize I needed to give some sort of public thank you for any discussions I have had with other farmers about genetics and feed and such. I think you might over state just a little the effects of our talks, but hey that's cool. It is always nice to chat and see if one's thoughts match with someone elses.
But I guess I will give that public thank you now. Thank you for talking deer stuff of all kinds to, Dale Kremsreiter, Gene Flees, Guyland Van Asten, Fred Huebner, Kevin Grace, Greg Flees, Kevin Calmes, Tim Condict, Dan Kuhns, Rod Haehlke, Karl Schreiner, Arvid Ames, and yes you to John Swank. I have always enjoyed the talks with these people and more. I hope each of them enjoyed the talks as well.
Well, enough of this fun. Back to the books again.
John, I didn't realize I needed to give some sort of public thank you for any discussions I have had with other farmers about genetics and feed and such. I think you might over state just a little the effects of our talks, but hey that's cool. It is always nice to chat and see if one's thoughts match with someone elses.
But I guess I will give that public thank you now. Thank you for talking deer stuff of all kinds to, Dale Kremsreiter, Gene Flees, Guyland Van Asten, Fred Huebner, Kevin Grace, Greg Flees, Kevin Calmes, Tim Condict, Dan Kuhns, Rod Haehlke, Karl Schreiner, Arvid Ames, and yes you to John Swank. I have always enjoyed the talks with these people and more. I hope each of them enjoyed the talks as well.
Well, enough of this fun. Back to the books again.
Joined May 2009
2,369 Posts | 0+
Chillicothe, Missouri
By the way i watched the video and i thought it was GREAT.............SORRY!........And if you don't .. i think you are kidding youself!........i think deerfarmers can sperate the two because we know the difference between Bambi and a MAJESTIC DEER........ WE RAISE DEER BECAUSE WE KNOW HOW "MAJESTIC" THESE ANIMALS WE "LOVE" ARE !!!!!!!!!!
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
That a cool video if its real.now show the one of the bear turnin on the guy who raised him and there was not much left to look at!We can only that most farmers are like rodger says and the tame one stays home.I have seen MOST will revert back to wild if you put them in with a group of non bottlefeds and take away the handouts you are never gunna take all the wild out of them at least the few that i have anyway.I can do as i wish with them but let the nimo man come or the mailman and guesswhat.........
There they go. With the whiteflag up! I guess it boils down to the deer itself!
There they go. With the whiteflag up! I guess it boils down to the deer itself!
Guys I am sorry to say. Most tame deer do not revert back to the wild. Well here is my experience of turning tame deer (not bottle fed) loose in our hunting area where I also live. The deer come into our yard eat all the shrubby and all my wife’s flowers. Some have taken up permanent residence in our yard and under the porch.
I guess the definition of what ones opinion of what wild means is different from one person to another. Wild as John explained, whitetail got it’s name from the white tail waving good by.
I guess the definition of what ones opinion of what wild means is different from one person to another. Wild as John explained, whitetail got it’s name from the white tail waving good by.
I can't help but think a lot of the resentment to our industry is the symptom and not the cause. As we are positioned in the hunting market today we simply don't offer affordable opportunities to the average hunter. And...we simply cannot. One reason is it costs us more to produce our deer than the average hunter can afford. Compare apples to apples. If we could get away with 10% hunter success (public hunts) and could continue to have repeat customers, we could drop our prices by 50%. Even without repeat customers we could "compete" with public hunting. I honestly believe at that point we would become the option we all want. Seeing at this time this is not feaseable for us, we target the market for those who ARE willing and CAN afford our prices. By doing this we align ourselves with that particular segment of our society known as the elitist. By definition this is a separate, and or favored group. This alone not only dissuades public oppinion, it does what it says...seperates US from THEM. We too are now a special interest group. This perception of our industry can only be changed at the most critical and negative point...affordability. Not only all of this, but we hear it more often these days...many folks can't afford good leases or hunting anymore regardless. Wouldn't it be great IF the government would allow preserves/ranches incentives to offer more opportunities?
Guys
I think we are missing the point Len was making. Thank you John, you did a very good job to put it back on track.
I do not think either of them was attacking any one for bottle raising deer. There objective as I read it was how the hunting and non hunting public sees deer and deer hunting. Bamby or the elusive whitetail. We pet Bamby and hunt and shoot at the elusive whitetail.
Each breeder should have the freedom to raise deer any way they feel led to. How ever I feel when someone is at our farms looking at our deer. We must determine are they sight seeing or buying. If they are thinking of purchasing deer, I show them Bamby and share anything that I feel will be helpful to them. If they are just looking I show them the majestic elusive whitetail threw binoculars.
Lens post was about perception the public has concerning deer and marketing. The end result of our market is hunting.
100% of the deer that do not did in our pens are shot.
I think we are missing the point Len was making. Thank you John, you did a very good job to put it back on track.
I do not think either of them was attacking any one for bottle raising deer. There objective as I read it was how the hunting and non hunting public sees deer and deer hunting. Bamby or the elusive whitetail. We pet Bamby and hunt and shoot at the elusive whitetail.
Each breeder should have the freedom to raise deer any way they feel led to. How ever I feel when someone is at our farms looking at our deer. We must determine are they sight seeing or buying. If they are thinking of purchasing deer, I show them Bamby and share anything that I feel will be helpful to them. If they are just looking I show them the majestic elusive whitetail threw binoculars.
Lens post was about perception the public has concerning deer and marketing. The end result of our market is hunting.
100% of the deer that do not did in our pens are shot.
