Ol Scrape. Whay you had to say is pretty deep. I am still chewing on it. Must say I agree my friend
Memo to Deer Industry Stakeholders
- Thread starter Russell
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Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
Just a ? to wisdom and scrape.If you guys bottlefeed for breeders and raise deer for shooters,Where do YOUR highdollar does go if you dont move them to other breeders.
Joined Apr 2009
2,617 Posts | 0+
Edgar, WI
Russell said:
There seems to be some sort of push to say the intent of the letter was side tracked by me and that it was not talking about bottle feeding being a bad thing. I think most people can read and saw what I saw but I just thought I would point out some of the things from the letter that I noticed.
I clearly get from this that, bottle feeding is looked at as being a bad thing. It even states it would be acceptable if our "primary market" was hunting preserves. Well, guess what? My primary market for my breeding does is NOT the hunting market.
It is talked about bottle feds being actually harder to handle going so far as to say it is a "myth" that bottle feds are easier. I will admit that a bottle fed isn't scared and therefore needs more work to move them forward through the system when handling them. But if I had to handle my does once each year I gladly will do the extra work so that the other 364 days of the year my deer are more enjoyable, and more marketable in the breeding markets.
I have said enough on this whole topic. There are those who don't agree with me and that is fine. Don't buy my bottle fed tame does and you won't have an issues then. And feel free to not bottle feed your does, I just will choose not to buy wild deer and risk my investment and personal enjoyment of owning a deer farm.
The End
I have waited to post on this thread because I too saw what you saw ...
bottle feeding = bad business.
I thought maybe I was biased being as I raise bottle babies so I tended to take his statements personal. I’ve gone over his letter several times the past few days trying to focus more on his other points because I really enjoy Len. I’ve had the privilege of hearing him speak here in Texas about what has happened in Canada and his concerns for us. He makes a good argument! I will say that I agree with him on all his other concerns except for the broad general statements made about bottle feeding. I’ve worked with pen raised & bottle raised over the years and would rather a bottle raised deer, doe or buck, in the breeder pens. That being said, the primary market for ranches I’ve worked with has been other breeders, not hunting ranches.
bottle feeding = bad business.
I thought maybe I was biased being as I raise bottle babies so I tended to take his statements personal. I’ve gone over his letter several times the past few days trying to focus more on his other points because I really enjoy Len. I’ve had the privilege of hearing him speak here in Texas about what has happened in Canada and his concerns for us. He makes a good argument! I will say that I agree with him on all his other concerns except for the broad general statements made about bottle feeding. I’ve worked with pen raised & bottle raised over the years and would rather a bottle raised deer, doe or buck, in the breeder pens. That being said, the primary market for ranches I’ve worked with has been other breeders, not hunting ranches.
Joined Apr 2009
1,485 Posts | 0+
Vaughn, MT 59487
Having experienced what Len and I have lost as we are among the few who lived through a loss of our hunting facilities and a loss of our businesses I can tell you for sure if the hunting facilities are closed down the business is lost. Without an end product use for the deer we produce as shooters the breeder market will fail and so will the pet market. If we are reduced to a hobby business as I have been in Montana very few of the people in the industry will continue to raise these animals for the love of the animal or just to look at.
There were over 100 farms in Montana and now only 30 or so are left. I'm the only deer farmer the rest are in elk. No one in Montana is making a living breeding elk or deer after the loss of the shooter market. We must get the public to understand this is the most humane method of harvest for this type of animal. We need to get this type of slaughter acceptable for our deer and elk.
Andy I believe your tame deer never reverted to wild because they never had the people food bond broken. If they could still get food from the flower garden in a way you were still feeding them. They were also still having a relationship with people. If left in a harvest facility without people being around they would turn wild. But as John said this was not the predominate point of the article. Those of us who like some tame deer around did center in on that as it was offensive to us. With that said I'll move on.
The elite group of wild deer hunters will never use our facilities. I'm not sure we can ever get that group in our camp. But we should try to get the general non hunting public in our camp. I believe the current shows being produced on pursuit will get a lot of the non hunting public to accept the deer breeding industry. People get used to seeing deer being raised behind fence. As long as they look healthy and happy the general public will accept this as a new use of the animal.
We should all have one goal and that is to get as many people behind the deer industry as each of us can. Len has many good ideas listed and we and all State deer farming groups should use them.
There were over 100 farms in Montana and now only 30 or so are left. I'm the only deer farmer the rest are in elk. No one in Montana is making a living breeding elk or deer after the loss of the shooter market. We must get the public to understand this is the most humane method of harvest for this type of animal. We need to get this type of slaughter acceptable for our deer and elk.
Andy I believe your tame deer never reverted to wild because they never had the people food bond broken. If they could still get food from the flower garden in a way you were still feeding them. They were also still having a relationship with people. If left in a harvest facility without people being around they would turn wild. But as John said this was not the predominate point of the article. Those of us who like some tame deer around did center in on that as it was offensive to us. With that said I'll move on.
The elite group of wild deer hunters will never use our facilities. I'm not sure we can ever get that group in our camp. But we should try to get the general non hunting public in our camp. I believe the current shows being produced on pursuit will get a lot of the non hunting public to accept the deer breeding industry. People get used to seeing deer being raised behind fence. As long as they look healthy and happy the general public will accept this as a new use of the animal.
We should all have one goal and that is to get as many people behind the deer industry as each of us can. Len has many good ideas listed and we and all State deer farming groups should use them.
“It is imperative that, as deer farmers, we know where we’re going with our industry, why we’re raising these animals behind high fences and that we are united in our vision for doing so.”
A united voice is a great idea, in theory. I think we all agree there does need to be a plan. The question(s) we need to be addressing is exactly how it can be done and still represent the various interests of deer farmers. We are a diverse group with so many different concerns most of our state associations have difficulties reaching majority decisions let alone attempting a collation for sending out a national message. I hate to say it, but I don’t think the threat of loss of liberty is enough to scare us into compromise, it’s going to take something really big and hopefully we’ll be able to come together as a whole then. Hopefully!
A united voice is a great idea, in theory. I think we all agree there does need to be a plan. The question(s) we need to be addressing is exactly how it can be done and still represent the various interests of deer farmers. We are a diverse group with so many different concerns most of our state associations have difficulties reaching majority decisions let alone attempting a collation for sending out a national message. I hate to say it, but I don’t think the threat of loss of liberty is enough to scare us into compromise, it’s going to take something really big and hopefully we’ll be able to come together as a whole then. Hopefully!
Well, I thought I wrote long posts! A few comments. I MAKE NO APOLOGIES TO ANYONE FOR WHAT I DO, ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO I HAVE NO CHANCE TO CHANGE THEIR MINDS!!!! I agree wholeheartedly with Roger. I also appreciate many of the other posts, including Susan and Jack. I realize I have slow danced in public with Len, but I must say I was dismayed at parts of the post or e-mail I received. Parts of it were somewhat on track. One thing I do know is that, if these projects were taken on, it would be the same people doing the work that already expend an un real amount of time working for this industry. Sometimes I feel like posting a day in my life. Just to let people know how many hours are devoted to the industry by a few. Alot of others find the time to post on here and talk smack but very few find time to help do the work inside this industry. Alot of the things I read on here (not this thread) are nothing more than people starting a conversation about how to promote the industry right before they come up with a great idea that is going to make them money.(again not this one) You want to know what I think? If someone is out there busting their hump to better everyones business, then their animals should be the top sellers at auction. These people should be rewarded for their work. Instead people get on here and berate them. Everyone always wants to know "WHAT IS NADeFA DOING", let me tell you what we are doing!!!! Working our butts off for free (letting our own farms suffer)while a bunch of "leaches" sit around sucking off of our hard work. Folks bust their humps everyday for their industry's in their home states. I promise you, I have never seen one of the complainers on here doing any of the work. You want to know what to tell an anti!!! Tell them to go to HELL!!!! Always works for me. We better be proactive at the legislative level. Thats where we are protected. I am always dismayed at how many people don't even know who their legislator is, let alone, having them out for a visit. A good piece of Tina's pecan pie goes along way toward securing a future with our legislator. I think most people do not realize how easy legislators are to access. There are some hunters who will never hunt behind a high fence, but most will. The reason they don't as said earlier on here is because they can't afford it. If you want to know if that is true, donate a free hunt to your DNR for a 200" deer to let out for a drawing. Wonder how many folks want in then. About 70,000 people a year put in for a hunt for elk or deer in Oklahoma on our wildlife refuge in the Wichita Mountains. Well thats fenced and we have only about 110,000 people who deer hunt in Oklahoma. The majority of the rest that don't apply have given up at hitting the lotto. Keith Warren is doing more for our industry with his TV shows than we could ever dream. How many times you hear Keith make an excuse or apologize. KEITH DOES NOT BELIEVE THERE IS A REASON TO. A man with conviction for this industry and is not scared to take the shots should be supported by all who can afford to do so. Anyway down here in the land of rightwing extremeists, we say thanks but no thanks to alot of these ideas. I see that I have began to rant, so I'll let it go. Len, I hope knows he is a good friend and we are swapping ideas. As long as we are swapping ideas, how about donating one of them mama's or papa's to the NADeFA conference. Now I like that idea alot. Come on Len if you would I will sing with you on Karyoke night at the NADeFA conference and will slow dance with you twice.
Joined Apr 2009
2,617 Posts | 0+
Edgar, WI
IndependenceRanch said:
Roger, you make some pretty defensive comments, although I personally do not think you were being attacked. You may feel this way as I don't think you are taking the opportunity to "think outside the box". You, and only you, are putting yourself center stage, therefore you are assuming you are being attacked. YOU ARE NOT, my friend. My apologies if I made you feel like I was attacking you - I was not.
I am probably one of the few people that for several months out of the year will handle their deer two and three times a day. In the evenings, I will run six or seven doe in to the urine collection facility, where they will stay for 12-14 hours. In the morning, I will then run those deer into pens where they stay throughout the day. Then again that evening we will run them back into the facility. This goes on from the beginning of September through until Christmas. In the nine years of scent collecting I have yet to have a "wild and crazy - non bottle fed" hit the fence while working them. I have had two deer in nine years hit the fence and die. One was a bottle fed and the other was Ebenezer's half sister. Both times it was due to people with small children stopping by uninvited and running up to and around the pens. I have some pretty good sized pens that, for the most part, allow the deer room to run, even when a dog is chasing them, without crashing the fence.
I know this is how it works on my farm and not every farm is the same. As far as me handling bottle fed deer for both scent collection and A/I - I prefer the one that will try to get away, but that's just me and my preference based on having worked with both. Does this mean I cannot enjoy my deer - absolutely not. I just enjoy the deer in a more natural way of observation, much like it would be on a scouting trip preseason to hunting season. This by no means, IMO, makes any other person observations wrong.
I think a lot of people reading this forum are starting to comprehend Len's message a little clearer and seeing the cause and effect of his well stated points. I don't think anyone is asking anybody to stop bottle feeding, but rather use some common sense when selecting the number you consider feeding as some of those fawn may one day end up in a preserve - regardless of how much we claim to love and enjoy them or screening the buyers.
With the preserves, I think one issue is with pens close to the lodge where all the tame deer run to the fence when hunters and guests arrive. I also think another issue is with those 40 footers - you know the ones that will stand there and allow you to get within 40 feet of them before they run. I had a non bottle fed buck a couple years ago that I sold to a hunting preserve. The guy calls me a few days later and gives me a hard time about the buck being bottle fed. I asked him what he was talking about and he said every morning the buck is standing at the gate in front of the lodge. I thought about this for a moment and realized I usually feed each morning and my deer were usually standing at the gate waiting on me. This is how I raised that specific deer for 4 years. It was his daily routine. Once I realized this I went back to feeding with gravity feeders so as to NOT program the deer in a feeding routine. For those that are buying fawns I always offer them two choices. They can either pick up the fawns seven days after they are born and started well on the bottle, or they can pick them up in the fall after weaning.
For us to think "every deer" we raise or bottle feed is going to end up being sold or used as breeding stock is a bit foolish, IMO. An option to consider might be to bottle feed on request of the purchaser, rather than having more bottle fed deer on your farm then you can sell as breeding stock. We all know a pedigree is just a record of breeding and has nothing to due with whether that deer is going to make breeding stock or not.
I've had, and seen, some doe that would only throw doe fawns, were crappy mothers or would not take in an A/I program but their pedigree's were great. I would not consider selling one of these animals "as" breeding stock but rather would want to cull it from the genetic pool. Unless you are going to eat it yourself or keep it until it dies, the only other outlet is to sell it as a shooter.
This is a complicated topic as most of us are forming our opinions based solely on emotion rather than for the betterment of the industry. It's a tough call either way but in the end, I hope the deer industry does not become just another livestock industry producing "domesticated animals" for slaughter. I hope we can remain an industry that continues to take pride in producing top quality, adrenaline pumping "game animals".
Peace...
.
Tim Condict said:
Tim,
Great post and right to the meat and potatoes, as usual.
You got Mail.... I don't feel this forum is the place to post the information.
.
Take note if you have only been in the deer breeding for a few years and will soon have shooters for sale
Last September we talked about the list hunting ranchs have. Know that I am not straying from Lens point. In fact I am hoping to reinforce what Len is trying to get us to understand. When selling shooters most ranchs prefer them to be wilder. A few years back one of the biggest ranches in Pa. was purchasing our biggest shooters. Bucks over 225BC. I was told several times by the people purchasing our bucks they really liked them for their body size, wildness that gave them the ability to survive when turned loose on 800 acres. The same people also told me that many of the tamer bucks they purchase from other breeders do not adapt very well and threw the course of the fall hunting season many of the bucks are found dead for one reason or another. I was also assured I would have a market for my bigger bucks because they did survive well and the breeders who had tamer deer. Well lets say, they were told their bucks were no longer needed.
Breeders who produce healthier, wilder shooters that will survive 2, 3, 4, months or even until the nest hunting season if they were not harvested will be a more desirable product for the hunting ranchs
Last September we talked about the list hunting ranchs have. Know that I am not straying from Lens point. In fact I am hoping to reinforce what Len is trying to get us to understand. When selling shooters most ranchs prefer them to be wilder. A few years back one of the biggest ranches in Pa. was purchasing our biggest shooters. Bucks over 225BC. I was told several times by the people purchasing our bucks they really liked them for their body size, wildness that gave them the ability to survive when turned loose on 800 acres. The same people also told me that many of the tamer bucks they purchase from other breeders do not adapt very well and threw the course of the fall hunting season many of the bucks are found dead for one reason or another. I was also assured I would have a market for my bigger bucks because they did survive well and the breeders who had tamer deer. Well lets say, they were told their bucks were no longer needed.
Breeders who produce healthier, wilder shooters that will survive 2, 3, 4, months or even until the nest hunting season if they were not harvested will be a more desirable product for the hunting ranchs
Good question. We quit bottle feeding three years ago except for the occasional fawn with problems. Our deer are not tame and they are by no means fence bouncers.
Until now I have not had any trouble selling bred does and doe fawns. With the economy, and less people getting into deer breeding and the competition from other breeders to sell their bred does and doe fawns. That may not be the case in the near future.
At this time we have a group of our better bred does in a holding pen. When these does fawn we are pulling the doe fawns that are sold and turning the does and their buck fawns into our hunting area. The reason for this is we do not want to over populate our hunting area with does. Plus this is an easy way to keep a handle on the breeding in our hunting area and give some one a deal on quality doe fawns cheap.
I have a motto. One of the ways to make money in the deer business is to buy quality deer cheap.
Until now I have not had any trouble selling bred does and doe fawns. With the economy, and less people getting into deer breeding and the competition from other breeders to sell their bred does and doe fawns. That may not be the case in the near future.
At this time we have a group of our better bred does in a holding pen. When these does fawn we are pulling the doe fawns that are sold and turning the does and their buck fawns into our hunting area. The reason for this is we do not want to over populate our hunting area with does. Plus this is an easy way to keep a handle on the breeding in our hunting area and give some one a deal on quality doe fawns cheap.
I have a motto. One of the ways to make money in the deer business is to buy quality deer cheap.
Four Seasons Whitetails said:
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
Wisdom doesn't that kinda put you in a 50 50 chance to even sell some fawns.I mean if you dont have them sold ahead of time and you dont take them to bottlefeed who is going to buy yur fawns.You know anybody just startin out is gunna want something they can touch and rub and go to the pen everyday with the kids to see.but i guess you could sell to established farms if they needed some but they probley have fawns for sale also.
Four Seasons
Most or all of those fawns are sold or donated at this time. We sell some fawns in the fall, but in the fall a bred doe is the best value. They are getting three deer.
We will not start bottle feeding a fawn until we have a deposit. The reason is when we pull a fawn. We now have become that fawns mother and are responsible for it. I am sure most of us have held a ding fawn in our arms, eyes filled with tears praying for a miracle.
Most or all of those fawns are sold or donated at this time. We sell some fawns in the fall, but in the fall a bred doe is the best value. They are getting three deer.
We will not start bottle feeding a fawn until we have a deposit. The reason is when we pull a fawn. We now have become that fawns mother and are responsible for it. I am sure most of us have held a ding fawn in our arms, eyes filled with tears praying for a miracle.
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
Well i guess there is no argue with your logic and its good that you have some deer sold that are not even born yet.That tells me you have what some people want but do you think if you did more bottlefeds you would sell some.I guess this whole posts talks about rests in each one of our hands.I know a Big farm in pa that bottlefeeds and has a very agressive breeding plan and if they dont make the cut in the perserve they go and they do very well.and then guys like yurself that dont.hopefully we can all work together and this thing will last but like it or not the almighty dollar pushes this world and people are gunna do what works for tem to survive(me included) we can only try to keep it as smooth as possible but i feel that the breeders bring money and people like calm and tame deer and thats what is bringin the $ today!!
No Mike what is bringing money today is deer that had their prices ran up at auctions.Now this is what new people want cause they think they will get better money for these deer only to find out if you don't have a certain name you can't get crap for your deer. You can get far better deer for the money if you do your home work.Unless you do some but kissing you will never get as much for your deer as some others do. Take Noble for example 500 a straw then the Walks bought in all of a sudden he went threw the roof. If you want those same genetics i do believe they came from Andy foors farm. thats what i mean by do your home work and you can get same genetics for fraction of the price. Most of these big name deer came from smaller farms where you can still get same genetics for way less. Just think about it run your price up to 10,000 a straw now the new guys see this so what are they going to buy they are going to buy what they think is going to make them best money.Buy the time they get fawns on the ground they can't even recoup money they paid for that straw.
Virgil
If that is what you think happens at auctions, you are sadly mistaken. This year at the Midwest Select the average lot was $15,833.00. Many folks feel that an auction is a place to sell your deer, and by that I mean the deer they do not want anymore. I always try to encourage folks to use the auction as a marketing tool rather than a Job (a place to get paid). Here is what I mean by this. Last year at the Midwest Select we had 139 consignors, of that 81 farms made the auction. Most of those deer farms were willing to give up their very best to participate. In doing so they were paid hansomly for their animals. If auctions are all a bunch of guys running up prices, why does this always seem to be the best way to sell deer? I bring up this question because , I get complaints everyday from folks that say they cannot get into one of the auctions. And if auctions are crooked or a false determination of value, then why do so many folks want to get into all of the auctions? Another question I have is why do you think the prices are being run up.
Let's take Guy A and he is selling Deer A. If Guy A already has Deer A and he is selling his very best, then he must have what he needs out of Deer A. But lets say Guy B want to get in to the auction and sell Deer B. He wants to sell Deer B because he wants to recoup some of his investment, feed bills, or what ever, but is only willing to part with a doe he gave $5,000.00 2 years ago. So to make this analagey easy lets say Guy A gets $30,000 for his deer. He has had her for three breeding seasons and sold 2 doe fawns off of her and she has a big 170" yearling, a real nice 210" 2 yr old and was breed to one of his 3 breeder bucks that he purchased for huge money from Guy C. Guy C is one of the biggest breeders in the country. Guy A paid $400,000 for one buck and $200,000 for another buck and got one for a deal at say $75,000. Now Guy A sells his deer AI'd to anything, you call it, then backs his doe up to any one of his high dollar breeder bucks. WOW, a great breeder buck as a back up. Now we are talking. The breeder buck is as good or just about as good as the AI buck. Win, Win for the guy running up the price I'd say. Not to mention that Guy A has spent $100,000 to $300,000 on does at auction in the last 2 years, and has built a very repitable name in the deer farming community and always see that the folks that buy from him get what they paid for or more than they paid for in some instances. Now Guy B just wants to raise a few deer and sell a few deer, does not have a breeder buck, and used semen from a buck other than the most coveted of AI sires. Great! These guys are great for the industry, and I will do everything to help this guy. I want him to succeed, but just coming to auctions to sell deer is not going to get it done. But wait, Look at what Guy A invested in to this industry. Guy B is probably going to sell Deer B for $3,500, but lets look at this for a minute. If the doe had fawns and had two fawns, then he has $750 in each of the fawns, follow me. Now if he were to go to Guy A and buy some semen, breeding forward (up), he should make money. I do not know any place else you can make this much money off of livestock other than in the deer business.
I can not stress how important all of the auction companies are. They set the standard for deer values. Without the auctions we would all have a bunch of pets.
Many of the guys you see in these auctions are the ones that know how to market their animals, go to every show, and participate in every event. Why am I referring to this. Good question! If there are some 8,000 deer farmers in this industry, and only about 300 of them sell deer in auctions each year, then I would say that is why they have deer that bring the most money at auctions. They are out there promoting not only their genetics, but our industry as a whole. This is great for their business, but it is great for yours and mine as well. They are helping us get a value for our animals as well. If their deer were only worth $3,000 then mine would be worthless! Get my point.
Yes some deer breeders might run up their deer. Let's face it, it happens, and we can't stop it. But, that can only happen for so long, and then the money circle they are working runs out.
I always say buy the best you can afford, and then sell 2 and buy 1. It cost just as much to feed an inferior deer as it does to feed a great deer!
Hope I did not sound like a smart allec, just want everyone to know that the auctions do work, and I wish more guys could see why the deer they are trying to sell don't bring the big money like some others. I have just touched the tip of the iceberg as to why some deer bring more than others, but we will save that for another time.
Come out to an auction, bring a friend, and enjoy the company of fellow deer breeders. You just might learn something.
If that is what you think happens at auctions, you are sadly mistaken. This year at the Midwest Select the average lot was $15,833.00. Many folks feel that an auction is a place to sell your deer, and by that I mean the deer they do not want anymore. I always try to encourage folks to use the auction as a marketing tool rather than a Job (a place to get paid). Here is what I mean by this. Last year at the Midwest Select we had 139 consignors, of that 81 farms made the auction. Most of those deer farms were willing to give up their very best to participate. In doing so they were paid hansomly for their animals. If auctions are all a bunch of guys running up prices, why does this always seem to be the best way to sell deer? I bring up this question because , I get complaints everyday from folks that say they cannot get into one of the auctions. And if auctions are crooked or a false determination of value, then why do so many folks want to get into all of the auctions? Another question I have is why do you think the prices are being run up.
Let's take Guy A and he is selling Deer A. If Guy A already has Deer A and he is selling his very best, then he must have what he needs out of Deer A. But lets say Guy B want to get in to the auction and sell Deer B. He wants to sell Deer B because he wants to recoup some of his investment, feed bills, or what ever, but is only willing to part with a doe he gave $5,000.00 2 years ago. So to make this analagey easy lets say Guy A gets $30,000 for his deer. He has had her for three breeding seasons and sold 2 doe fawns off of her and she has a big 170" yearling, a real nice 210" 2 yr old and was breed to one of his 3 breeder bucks that he purchased for huge money from Guy C. Guy C is one of the biggest breeders in the country. Guy A paid $400,000 for one buck and $200,000 for another buck and got one for a deal at say $75,000. Now Guy A sells his deer AI'd to anything, you call it, then backs his doe up to any one of his high dollar breeder bucks. WOW, a great breeder buck as a back up. Now we are talking. The breeder buck is as good or just about as good as the AI buck. Win, Win for the guy running up the price I'd say. Not to mention that Guy A has spent $100,000 to $300,000 on does at auction in the last 2 years, and has built a very repitable name in the deer farming community and always see that the folks that buy from him get what they paid for or more than they paid for in some instances. Now Guy B just wants to raise a few deer and sell a few deer, does not have a breeder buck, and used semen from a buck other than the most coveted of AI sires. Great! These guys are great for the industry, and I will do everything to help this guy. I want him to succeed, but just coming to auctions to sell deer is not going to get it done. But wait, Look at what Guy A invested in to this industry. Guy B is probably going to sell Deer B for $3,500, but lets look at this for a minute. If the doe had fawns and had two fawns, then he has $750 in each of the fawns, follow me. Now if he were to go to Guy A and buy some semen, breeding forward (up), he should make money. I do not know any place else you can make this much money off of livestock other than in the deer business.
I can not stress how important all of the auction companies are. They set the standard for deer values. Without the auctions we would all have a bunch of pets.
Many of the guys you see in these auctions are the ones that know how to market their animals, go to every show, and participate in every event. Why am I referring to this. Good question! If there are some 8,000 deer farmers in this industry, and only about 300 of them sell deer in auctions each year, then I would say that is why they have deer that bring the most money at auctions. They are out there promoting not only their genetics, but our industry as a whole. This is great for their business, but it is great for yours and mine as well. They are helping us get a value for our animals as well. If their deer were only worth $3,000 then mine would be worthless! Get my point.
Yes some deer breeders might run up their deer. Let's face it, it happens, and we can't stop it. But, that can only happen for so long, and then the money circle they are working runs out.
I always say buy the best you can afford, and then sell 2 and buy 1. It cost just as much to feed an inferior deer as it does to feed a great deer!
Hope I did not sound like a smart allec, just want everyone to know that the auctions do work, and I wish more guys could see why the deer they are trying to sell don't bring the big money like some others. I have just touched the tip of the iceberg as to why some deer bring more than others, but we will save that for another time.
Come out to an auction, bring a friend, and enjoy the company of fellow deer breeders. You just might learn something.
I've been to many auctions and they are great for the industry. Ive also been to many farms with giant white tails that produce but are getting much less for their deer even though they are just as good or better than some of these ones bringing these big (inflated high prices).Then if i don't have certain pedigrees or even if i do and i am not well known i'm not even going to get into some of these auctions.Thats why i love white tail exchange everyone is excepted little guy or big guy. I guess all i was saying is if you want to raise big bucks you can do it with out spending big money.Hunting preserves all pay the same no matter what the bloodlines they are.
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
Virgil I think you are right to a point you use the walks and noble for example i guess they bought that deer and then marketed him.Thats good buisness for them i mean they have been around and built up a good name.I hope the guy who raised that deer was happy with what he sold him for.I guess he was or it wouldnt of went down.I dont think that will ever change but we cant blame them they are spending big money on these deer and makin bigger money that the way the world turns i guess.It also seems like there are certin auctions that promote the bigger stuff and it seems like you need a bigger name to get in but i guess those fellas paid their dues also.It will take a little time but you will see some new names poppin up soon and there will be more to choose from but i dont think it will ever change that the same exact deer will bring two different prices regardless of pedigree!
Four Seasons you made my point exactly. If you and I have the same exact doe, but you have Maxbo as a breeder and I have a 2 yr old 230" buck on my farm, and we both Ai'd them to the same thing which one doe do you think would bring more. Yours of course. You have a great breeder buck to back her up to and I have an unproven 230" 2 yr old that is still a good doe but does not demand the same buyers as a sure thing. There is the difference. Always has been, always will be. Deer with out proven pedigrees are getting tougher to market and sell, so why would anybody buy mine if the Ai didn't take and they have a fawn out of my back up buck. He would not even be 1/10 as marketable. But if yours caught to Maxbo as the back up, he has tremendous marketability. Guys we can argue the facts, but the numbers don't lie and the auction says if you have a great back up or breeder buck you will fair much better to auction buyers. How do you make a name for your breeder buck or sires, there is only one way, attend the auctions, get to know everyone, and make partnerships that last. This business is no different than any other business in he U.S. except we get paid to do what we love. In closing I want to give each person something to ponder. Take UPS and Fed Ex. They are the largest overnight shippers in the world. If I wanted to start a business and become the number one overnight shipper in the world do you think I could do it. Maybe, but I guarantee you it would take years. UPS and Fed Ex have a loyal customer base. They are dependable and do what they say they will do. Many of the folks using UPS and Fed Ex could just use the United States Post Office (ha ha) but they don't. That is exactly why the United States Post Office struggles and continues to raise rates. UPS and Fed Ex don't care about what they charge you or me, they only care that the product gets delivered on time, every time, and to the right place. That is my WISDOM for the day!
