question: IS SEXED SEMEN A GOOD THING

Since I'm already exposed here I guess I will ad:  If I owned a hunting ranch I would own all of the does I could handle, breed every one of them to sexed semen, and eliminate my dependence on other breeders.  But that's just me.


 


I might ad, I am selling my chute and handling system.  Posted on this site!

BMAYES1056501447640860



Probably putting myself in harms way by commenting here.  I believe sexed semen will be extremely beneficial for a few and will likely make it impossible for many others to stay in business.  If you don't have a 100% reliable buyer for your hunt bucks going forward I believe your time is limited.  Sexed semen = more bucks available.  Basically doubling the supply without considerable increased demand means cheaper prices and your bucks will be harder to sell.  When you do sell them you'll take whatever the hunting ranches want to pay.  You will be 100% at their mercy which is really nothing new I guess.   I know some of the hunting ranches are breeding huge numbers of does to male sexed to ensure their supply of bucks is reliable regardless of regulatory issues.  Whatever business you are in if you have to beg someone to buy your product you are in serious trouble.




If this is putting you in harms way then i will try to have your back. This is just another way to separate and divide. Problem is the dividing will destroy the industry for the ones that tried to put themselves at the top and others out.  No numbers of farms means no fighting the antis and the industry crumbles.    


 


I can promise ya that the farms that go under and out of bizz will not be there to have the backs of those that remain.

I am not going to use sexed semen to produce bucks. I have watched a lot of folks come and go from the deer business who did what was hot!!!

IndependenceRanch1056421447586905



All I did was join Jim in his concern about the flood of bucks in the market place and that is bashing?

Also if giving facts and speaking reality so new people come in with their eyes open is bashing then so be it. Better to be honest instead of painting a picture of roses and puppies and then people spend their hard earned money to find out they were lied to. I have over 20 years in the industry. I rode the wagon up the hill as the industry grew, and I have rode it as far as I feel I can. I have always had a great deal of passion about the industry. I shared my info with everyone to help them and not because it looked good for business. I am sorry you don't like me being straight forward with my views. But I have always spoke my mind and did it sincerely.

Do I think sexed semen shouldn't be allowed? No. Do I think it is bad for the industry? Yes. Anyone can see that the market is flooded and unbalanced. Your obviously just ticked off that I changed my mind about that straw of semen. Yes I changed my mind and decided not to buy it. First time I ever went back on my word. I felt horrible about it too. In fact so bad that I did tell you I would still buy it and just resell it since I am getting out. But you said no. I assume those straws sold like hot cakes being limited and you were able to just go down the list of names to the next person to sell it.




 


Ugh... what a can of worms. I'll keep this brief.  My comment has nothing to do with our PRIVATE transaction.  I'm not ticked or pissed or upset with you about it.  Period!  And apparently I cannot stick up for an industry that I still believe in without you taking great offense and making it personal.  So ***** on my friend!

It's all good Jim. Opinions are never shared equally among everyone and thus leads to disagreements.

I recall what seems like 100 years ago a friend telling me it was a mistake to start a deer org in WI. That all we were doing was putting a target on our backs by making people aware of the industry. At the time I thought he was wrong. However back then you could feed a buck for $150-$200 per year and sell a 150" buck for about $3500. We didn't have to TB test nor Bruc or CWD. Shipping deer was a snap to anywhere in the country. All we used vets for was to buy our Rompum. Yearly census forms and renewal fees? What are those??? Semen collecting was done in the privacy of your bedroom. It was easy to sell any does you had extra. And it was about fun and friends and not about money.

Maybe he was right after all.

R.I.P. Dale

Totally agree Jim.  Didn't mean to hijack your thread my friend.  And I certainly do not want any "deer" deal to come between any of my friendships.  Time we take this offline Roger if you have anything else you'd like to discuss.  Again, my apologies Jim.   Don't be sorry for starting an important topic about our industry.  

I remember being at the second top30 sale and seeing almost everyone's deer bring a sensable honest price. I remember one gentleman who did something to manipulate the price of his lot that my mother raised me not to do. Some obviously interpreted what was done there as smart business. A wave of schemers was born. Folks barrowed against their homes to buy genetics that were worth a completely different price once at their farms. It has been difficult but I have tried to avoid the element of the deer business I saw created. IMO A scenario was created there that was akin to an Amway pyramid. I was there and saw the first block laid. The game I saw started that day was a complicated scheme. Breeding deer for our terminal market is a plain and simple method to make a profit in the deer business. It is the way we started and the reason we are still enjoying farming deer.

Bell I had a friend in PA that came out mule deer hunting with me and Scott.  He had a very nice buck that he had a good offer for and wanted my advice.  He had borrowed money from his Dad who had to put up his home for the money.  He was worried about the direction of the business and wanted my opinion if he should take the offer.  My response was you raise them to sell and if you have a good offer it would be wise to sell now.  Reason being the market was getting soft on bucks and EHD was rearing it's head and moving North.  He did sell the buck and was able to pay his Dad back.  That following year he had EHD and the buck market kept getting worse.  He has called a few times and said that was the best advice for him.  Had that deer died he would have had trouble paying back his Dad on the loan.  He is now out of the deer business as he didn't like what was going on in the industry.


This was a wise choice for him just wish I could take my own advice but I still like them all too much to pull the trigger.

Y
Jack1056771447735643

Bell I had a friend in PA that came out mule deer hunting with me and Scott.  He had a very nice buck that he had a good offer for and wanted my advice.  He had borrowed money from his Dad who had to put up his home for the money.  He was worried about the direction of the business and wanted my opinion if he should take the offer.  My response was you raise them to sell and if you have a good offer it would be wise to sell now.  Reason being the market was getting soft on bucks and EHD was rearing it's head and moving North.  He did sell the buck and was able to pay his Dad back.  That following year he had EHD and the buck market kept getting worse.  He has called a few times and said that was the best advice for him.  Had that deer died he would have had trouble paying back his Dad on the loan.  He is now out of the deer business as he didn't like what was going on in the industry.

This was a wise choice for him just wish I could take my own advice but I still like them all too much to pull the trigger.
Jack

My dad gets a lot of exercise and relaxation out of our deer. I believe he is healthier because of it. For that reason alone I will enjoy busting my butt raising them!

Jim

I don't mind reading a dialog where folk have a disagreement. I love plenty of folks that I diagree with on many things. I am sure some folks have gotton valuable insight from the debate and discussion in this thread. Your question is something I have tried to think through. I have no issue with the ethics of sexing semen. I don't think the economic advantages of doing it are quite as sound as some imagine. My father in law has tried it on his dairy. Yes he has a semen tank but the bulls still breed nearly all his cows in the pastures.

Jack1056771447735643

Bell I had a friend in PA that came out mule deer hunting with me and Scott.  He had a very nice buck that he had a good offer for and wanted my advice.  He had borrowed money from his Dad who had to put up his home for the money.  He was worried about the direction of the business and wanted my opinion if he should take the offer.  My response was you raise them to sell and if you have a good offer it would be wise to sell now.  Reason being the market was getting soft on bucks and EHD was rearing it's head and moving North.  He did sell the buck and was able to pay his Dad back.  That following year he had EHD and the buck market kept getting worse.  He has called a few times and said that was the best advice for him.  Had that deer died he would have had trouble paying back his Dad on the loan.  He is now out of the deer business as he didn't like what was going on in the industry.

This was a wise choice for him just wish I could take my own advice but I still like them all too much to pull the trigger.


The advice I got over 20 years ago was, "Don't spend more than you can afford to lose."

For everyone that number is different. I have always passed that advice along to others. Even to those considering buying from me.

My own personal opinion is, "A foolish person borrows money to invest."

I also extend that philosophy to borrowing money for toys. If I can't pay cash, I don't buy it. The only thing I borrow is for my home because of tax and investment reasons.

About 18 or so years ago I and a old timer in deer were chatting. He was telling me how he had been offered big money for two of his bucks and turned it down. The next day he called me to say he had found both bucks locked up from fighting laying in his pond dead. He was pretty distraught over it all.

Bell1056751447729723



I remember being at the second top30 sale and seeing almost everyone's deer bring a sensable honest price. I remember one gentleman who did something to manipulate the price of his lot that my mother raised me not to do. Some obviously interpreted what was done there as smart business. A wave of schemers was born. Folks barrowed against their homes to buy genetics that were worth a completely different price once at their farms. It has been difficult but I have tried to avoid the element of the deer business I saw created. IMO A scenario was created there that was akin to an Amway pyramid. I was there and saw the first block laid. The game I saw started that day was a complicated scheme. Breeding deer for our terminal market is a plain and simple method to make a profit in the deer business. It is the way we started and the reason we are still enjoying farming deer.




Speaking of Top 30. Picture this...You are sitting at the sale thinking on taking the dip into better blood and join the ranks of the top 30 per say, You hear the words..Now if you want to be in the Top 30 and get to the next level then this is the kind of doe you need to buy. Guy buys doe and gets fawns from buck she was bred to. He decides he wants to be in that class so he enters that same doe he bought at the Top 30 bred to same buck, 1 year later after hearing those words,,,,This is the kind of doe you need....He sends it in and gets the big turn down from the sale. The next year after watching a few more of some of their tricks he sold and down came the fence and along came the bad taste that still sours him today.

Let me tell you about a friend of mine. If I recall correctly the events went something like this. He bought a bred doe and could leave her at the sellers farm to be rebred again. She had her first set of which all that he got was a single buck fawn. However the wrong buck fawn was sent to him. The doe was rebred per the auction offering. He took her home and while fawning a problem caused him to lose all the fawns. Then after a couple years breeding her he sold her at auction. His original purchase price was like $80k. When he sold the doe bred he got like $2500 for her. Talk about a kick in the sack. I suspect there are TONS of similar stories out there. The breeder market had its flaws for sure.

My opinion on sexed semen is it will help the hunting facilities in the fact they can raise more of the bucks they need for their hunting facility.  This will leave the small breeder with a lot of bucks he will have a hard time selling and many people will be in the same position.  Many people in this position will have to reduce their price to even get a harvest facility to buy their bucks.  In the long run many people will go out of the business.  This is just supply and demand.  Most breeders feed their deer the best food they can get and if prices don't cover their cost of raising the deer and we continue to have the regulator agencies put more testing on us and more herd inventories not many people will continue to raise deer at a loss.  Yes we all love our deer and industry but each one of us will have to make the decision when is it enough and leave the deer industry.  A glut of bucks is never any good for this industry.

In my opinion, sexed semen is going to cause one major change. Inches are a thing of the past. With greater number of bucks, ranches will have the ability to pick and choose the bucks hunters truely want.

RyanR1056891447795564

In my opinion, sexed semen is going to cause one major change. Inches are a thing of the past. With greater number of bucks, ranches will have the ability to pick and choose the bucks hunters truely want.


The selective buying method is already starting to happen. I was told to knock down the buck I have now and score him for a total net typical score. Because they have a buyer who is only wanting the new record book buck. If he met this he would buy it. I am not knocking down a buck just to score him. Who pays for him if he dies?

EHD..............Will always place a large role when it rears it's ugly head..............On who will sell what?


Large Operations with Large amounts of anything will always have significant losses when any Disease is around...............Karma and Mother Nature tend to work hand and hand on this!

[quote name="Whitetail Sanctuary" post="105694" timestamp="1447808303"]

EHD..............Will always place a large role when it rears it's ugly head..............On who will sell what?

Large Operations with Large amounts of anything will always have significant losses when any Disease is around...............Karma and Mother Nature tend to work hand and hand on this![/quote so I won't be waiting in line behind you to sell the preserves who have used sexed semen my does after an EHD event? Chuckles

Thanks Jim for starting this topic.  I enjoy the business side of this discussion and think it's fascinating.  The other back and forth between guys is just good old fashioned entertainment where I have the pleasure of a free rink-side seat.


For what it's worth, here's my two cents.  It always comes back to supply and demand.  If sexed semen creates an over-supply situation then yes, it'll be tough on the buck selling market (especially for the less established farmers like me).  It's temporary though because this will cause some folks to drop out and or downsize and the over-supply situation will be rectified.  Diseases and government regulations can have the same effect on the market as well.  When these "outside" influences knock the supply OR demand out of wack there will always be a period of adjustments but the market will always adjust back to neutral.  If I was to guess, I'd say neutral is probably about where the market is right now.  If raising deer wouldn't be fun, neutral would be at a more profitable place for the average farmer.  There's nothing unique about the deer raising industry when it comes to the laws of supply and demand.  Just look at the beef market.  Disease and drought took out a huge portion of the mid-west herd, demand exceeded supply, prices on meat soared, new beef farmers started flooding into the lucrative market, supply comes back into check and prices come back down.  Because of the influx of new beef farmers there could be an over-supply which will push prices down and drive some out of the business.  Industry after industry is subject to a greater or lesser degree to these swings in the supply and demand.  Think of the egg market,  bird-flu has that market going crazy, there's a shortage of eggs and the prices are thru the roof.  I have clients rushing to build laying houses because there's really good money in it right now.  I fear the prices might come back down before they get going and then suddenly there will be an over-supply unless bird-flu hits again.  This will not bode well for them.


Think about what would happen if the top was blown off the deer industry.  Let's say the government would start buying huge numbers of the private herd to enhance the wild herd.  Prices would soar for years but only till the farmers would catch up to the demand.  Then we'd be back to the same neutral zone where it's not very lucrative for the average farmer because it's just too much fun.


Wow, that was a little on the long side.