Typical or Non-Typical?
- Thread starter SJames
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Joined Apr 2009
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Columbia, MO
Darren,
I think thats a great topic "Is a deer worth more depending on who owns it"
We'll save that for another day.
Ok, as most of you have probably figured out, I posted this for a reason. The reason is to stress to all the breeders what hunters like, what they will pay for, and most importantly, what we (as hunting ranches and breeders) make on them!
First, lets talk about what hunters want:
Several years ago I started preaching that the breeding industry needed to change to start producing bucks with better frame and what we call “Shock Value”! As hunting preserves, we like our clients to be happy and to get excited enough to pull the trigger. When that buck that we worked so hard to put them on finally steps out, we want our hunters to get excited. When a deer makes a hunters heart start to beat so rapidly that they are not even sure if they can remain steady enough to take the shot, then that’s “Shock Value”. And just as importantly, when a hunter walks up on to a deer he has just taken, grabs the antlers and starts shaking like a kid that shot his first deer, then that’s “Shock Value”.
“Shock Value” can be a very hard thing to define and can vary from one hunter to the next. Some hunters want deer that are extremely wide, others want deer that are tall and still others want deer with great mass or flyers or kickers. Some hunters want deer with drops, some want deer with long beams that curve way around, and some want palmated deer with web like mass. All hunters are different and lucky for us, there is a great variation in the antlers of whitetails. They are kind of like snowflakes where no two are exactly alike. A good guide will ask his hunter what he really likes in a whitetail and then try to find him one that “Shocks his socks off”!
With all that said, I think the whitetail breeding industry tends to go a little overboard with the hype and trying to produce a buck that they think will make everyone happy. Well here is a news flash: THERE IS NO SUCH BUCK! And that’s a good thing. While the trend for a slight majority of hunters is to lean toward a more typical deer, there are many hunters that still want something different. If they harvest a huge typical one year, they may want a drop tine buck the next. Then the next year they may be looking for a massive “Freak Nasty” buck with mass and lots of points. Luckily for us most whitetail hunters are very dedicated to putting many whitetails on their trophy room walls. And they certainly don’t want them all to look alike! That would be like….Ummmm maybe the elk? When I get elk hunters in they are usually “one and done”. One trophy elk seems to be enough for most of them. I’m not really sure why? The elk industry has sure suffered because of it. But that’s another topic for another day.
Now before I get into the 2 bucks I posted I thought I’d state some observations that I’ve made during the last several years. I’ve been hunting in our preserve for 17 years and have taken about 2000 animals. I don’t say that to brag, I only say it to show that I do have some exposure to what hunters really want.
1. In any given category that a hunting ranch offers, most hunters would prefer to shoot a typical deer over a non-typical. For example at our ranch we have a 180-190 category. If you give the hunter a choice, he would rather shoot a large 10 point 22 inch wide, fairly clean buck than a 150 type buck with 35 inches of extras. Hunters simply place more value on the typical parts of the antler.
2. Most hunters when given the choice would rather shoot a huge frame deer with a low price. That’s why the big 8 pointers are so popular. Big look for a small amount of cost. If you tell a hunter that that the 200 inch 8 point will cost him the same as a 300 inch non-typical and the 8 point deer is not near as appealing!
3. Given the same price, most hunters will shoot deer with a higher score. If you put a hunter on a 160 inch 8 point deer and a 190 inch non-typical and tell him he can shoot either one for the SAME price. Most will shoot the 190 inch deer. (However, they are never the same price)
4. Almost all hunting ranches still charge by the inch. Until that changes, and I don’t see it happening in the near future, score still does matter! Shock Value and score is what we should be breeding for!
5. Most hunters will come in to camp and when you ask them what they want will reply “I’d like a massive, wide, tall deer with double drops and flyers…..but I don’t want to pay more than a 160 inch price!" I guess we all want value for our money!
So finally we get back to the two breeders posted at the beginning of this post. Lets say our goal is to produce 10 shooters from each buck and sell them to the hunting industry. Remember that we are assuming that they produce deer mostly like themselves.
Buck A scores 196. He should raise wide pretty bucks that score from 180 to 210 inches and will average about $5,000 -7,500 per deer sold. They will sell fast and furious with no problems. We may even put a premium on them. We’ll gross about $50,000- $75,000 on 10 shooters.
Buck B scores 277. He should produce deer that score from 250 to 300 inches. While these deer will be non typical and harder to sell, we should easily expect 10-15,000 per deer. We may even have to discount them a little to move them. We may only average 10,000-12,000 per shooter on these. We’ll still gross about 100,000-125,000 on 10 shooters.
From the hunting ranch side of the equation, Its easier to buy and harvest the shooter bucks from buck A. Why is that? Its because we are going to charge more for the 250-300 inch bucks, probably twice as much. And for every one of those deer we harvest we expect to make twice as much money. The prices are higher and the hunters willing to pay those prices are harder to find.
So which buck did I choose? My heart picked A but my hunting ranch background chose B. Of course as many of you figured out the best choice is probably both! A cross between the 2 will probably produce the best all around shooter buck. Shock effect and score!
Just for your information, Buck A is a Waylon 3 year old son named Wagon. He will probably produce deer that score much more than he does. Buck B is Hickory! He is 4 years old and is Hardwood’s twin out of Drfter and a PA Geronimo doe. He should also produce really well.
I guess that’s what makes this industry so enjoyable. So many deer…So little time!!!
I think thats a great topic "Is a deer worth more depending on who owns it"
We'll save that for another day.
Ok, as most of you have probably figured out, I posted this for a reason. The reason is to stress to all the breeders what hunters like, what they will pay for, and most importantly, what we (as hunting ranches and breeders) make on them!
First, lets talk about what hunters want:
Several years ago I started preaching that the breeding industry needed to change to start producing bucks with better frame and what we call “Shock Value”! As hunting preserves, we like our clients to be happy and to get excited enough to pull the trigger. When that buck that we worked so hard to put them on finally steps out, we want our hunters to get excited. When a deer makes a hunters heart start to beat so rapidly that they are not even sure if they can remain steady enough to take the shot, then that’s “Shock Value”. And just as importantly, when a hunter walks up on to a deer he has just taken, grabs the antlers and starts shaking like a kid that shot his first deer, then that’s “Shock Value”.
“Shock Value” can be a very hard thing to define and can vary from one hunter to the next. Some hunters want deer that are extremely wide, others want deer that are tall and still others want deer with great mass or flyers or kickers. Some hunters want deer with drops, some want deer with long beams that curve way around, and some want palmated deer with web like mass. All hunters are different and lucky for us, there is a great variation in the antlers of whitetails. They are kind of like snowflakes where no two are exactly alike. A good guide will ask his hunter what he really likes in a whitetail and then try to find him one that “Shocks his socks off”!
With all that said, I think the whitetail breeding industry tends to go a little overboard with the hype and trying to produce a buck that they think will make everyone happy. Well here is a news flash: THERE IS NO SUCH BUCK! And that’s a good thing. While the trend for a slight majority of hunters is to lean toward a more typical deer, there are many hunters that still want something different. If they harvest a huge typical one year, they may want a drop tine buck the next. Then the next year they may be looking for a massive “Freak Nasty” buck with mass and lots of points. Luckily for us most whitetail hunters are very dedicated to putting many whitetails on their trophy room walls. And they certainly don’t want them all to look alike! That would be like….Ummmm maybe the elk? When I get elk hunters in they are usually “one and done”. One trophy elk seems to be enough for most of them. I’m not really sure why? The elk industry has sure suffered because of it. But that’s another topic for another day.
Now before I get into the 2 bucks I posted I thought I’d state some observations that I’ve made during the last several years. I’ve been hunting in our preserve for 17 years and have taken about 2000 animals. I don’t say that to brag, I only say it to show that I do have some exposure to what hunters really want.
1. In any given category that a hunting ranch offers, most hunters would prefer to shoot a typical deer over a non-typical. For example at our ranch we have a 180-190 category. If you give the hunter a choice, he would rather shoot a large 10 point 22 inch wide, fairly clean buck than a 150 type buck with 35 inches of extras. Hunters simply place more value on the typical parts of the antler.
2. Most hunters when given the choice would rather shoot a huge frame deer with a low price. That’s why the big 8 pointers are so popular. Big look for a small amount of cost. If you tell a hunter that that the 200 inch 8 point will cost him the same as a 300 inch non-typical and the 8 point deer is not near as appealing!
3. Given the same price, most hunters will shoot deer with a higher score. If you put a hunter on a 160 inch 8 point deer and a 190 inch non-typical and tell him he can shoot either one for the SAME price. Most will shoot the 190 inch deer. (However, they are never the same price)
4. Almost all hunting ranches still charge by the inch. Until that changes, and I don’t see it happening in the near future, score still does matter! Shock Value and score is what we should be breeding for!
5. Most hunters will come in to camp and when you ask them what they want will reply “I’d like a massive, wide, tall deer with double drops and flyers…..but I don’t want to pay more than a 160 inch price!" I guess we all want value for our money!
So finally we get back to the two breeders posted at the beginning of this post. Lets say our goal is to produce 10 shooters from each buck and sell them to the hunting industry. Remember that we are assuming that they produce deer mostly like themselves.
Buck A scores 196. He should raise wide pretty bucks that score from 180 to 210 inches and will average about $5,000 -7,500 per deer sold. They will sell fast and furious with no problems. We may even put a premium on them. We’ll gross about $50,000- $75,000 on 10 shooters.
Buck B scores 277. He should produce deer that score from 250 to 300 inches. While these deer will be non typical and harder to sell, we should easily expect 10-15,000 per deer. We may even have to discount them a little to move them. We may only average 10,000-12,000 per shooter on these. We’ll still gross about 100,000-125,000 on 10 shooters.
From the hunting ranch side of the equation, Its easier to buy and harvest the shooter bucks from buck A. Why is that? Its because we are going to charge more for the 250-300 inch bucks, probably twice as much. And for every one of those deer we harvest we expect to make twice as much money. The prices are higher and the hunters willing to pay those prices are harder to find.
So which buck did I choose? My heart picked A but my hunting ranch background chose B. Of course as many of you figured out the best choice is probably both! A cross between the 2 will probably produce the best all around shooter buck. Shock effect and score!
Just for your information, Buck A is a Waylon 3 year old son named Wagon. He will probably produce deer that score much more than he does. Buck B is Hickory! He is 4 years old and is Hardwood’s twin out of Drfter and a PA Geronimo doe. He should also produce really well.
I guess that’s what makes this industry so enjoyable. So many deer…So little time!!!
Thank you for the post Sam
There are many beginning breeders who need to know the wisdom in what you wrote.
In short a hunter gets more eye appeal for the money choosing typical. That’s why I said earlier which buck would you shoot if a 200 typ and a 300 non-typical stood in our cross hares. If priced the same the Non-typical is now the better value.
There are many beginning breeders who need to know the wisdom in what you wrote.
In short a hunter gets more eye appeal for the money choosing typical. That’s why I said earlier which buck would you shoot if a 200 typ and a 300 non-typical stood in our cross hares. If priced the same the Non-typical is now the better value.
Great thread Sam just seen it and i would have said A mainly because I like the 2 yo i had out of him and now my yearling that is out of that 2 yo looks like he might be a eye catcher in the years to come if he don't damage his rack again next year Thanks for sharing a little of your years of Knowledge with us
