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Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
313
Location
Everett, PA
Fellow breeders

2009 in the deer business resembled the stock market with its ups and downs. Four factors triggered this unstable market. First the early auctions reported selling bucks at half the price of previous years. This triggered doubt among breeders who were already worried about the economy and the increased number of available shooters. But what made things seem even worse, there were very few ranches in Pa. purchasing shooter bucks last September as compared to years past. Some breeders used wisdom, fear, or both by selling their shooters early at cheaper prices once they did find a buyer. This panic set early prices that continued well into fall. However, toward late fall, prices rebounded and stabilized. The bucks that took the worst hit on prices were the 180 inch deer and up. Many breeders, especially those new in the deer industry, wonder if this will be the trend for the next few years. Of coarse, no one knows. One thing we do know is, if the economy does not pick up and we do not get more hunters interested in high fenced hunting, next year will probably not be much better.

So how to resolve our problem? We must first identify the problem. We can blame the untimely early auctions, the economy, the deer breeders panicing and selling cheaper. Or we can blame the hunting ranches for taking advantage of deer farmers and the cheaper prices. Or - Or we can work together and build a stronger industry that will bring stability for us all. To do this I suggest that every deer breeder lay down your differences, join and support your state deer associations. I know many of you past members have been hurt or felt betrayed by the PDFA and other state ***. Originally, the PDFA was set up to serve, protect and promote all Pa. breeders (members and non-members alike). In the legislative area, working with the state agencies and representatives, the PDFA, through it's board members, has done a great job. However, over the past several years, the board focus seems to have turned a bit self serving with an overemphasis on the breeding market, to the detriment of the smaller breeders who purched their deer. As we all know not all deer produced are breeding quality, but in todays market that depends on the pedigree. Along with the breeding market, there needs to be a strong shooter market for the deer who do not make the grade for breeders.

As we move into 2010, we must realize that Pa. breeders, PDFA and all state associations focus should not only be on selling more breeding stock where there already is a glut in the market, but to emphasize the shooter market as viable outlet along with the breeding market.

Its time to bury the hatchets, re-join your state ***. and let your voices be heard. The PDFA should be supporting all Pa breeders by helping to establish a hunting market for our shooter bucks that all the Pa. breeders are producing. Tell them how you feel. Be part of the sloution and not the problem. There must be a shift in focus from marketing breeding stock to marketing shooter bucks. If this happens, the breeding stock market will grow stronger and regain on its own. Join your state ***. and in 2010 attend the meetings. Remind our elected officers 2010 will define the motives of the board members to serve, protect and promote or be self serving. Call your elected board members and let them know how you feel. Complaining and seeking sympathy from fellow deer farmers only accomplishes one thing, division. And yes we are all guilty of that, including me. Lets bury the proverbial hatchet and build a stronger deer associations from the inside out, a stronger deer industry, a brighter future for each of us, our children and future generations.

Join, join today and let your voices be heard in love.



Andy Foor
 
Andy not sure what your getting at but seems to read everyone one the board is simply sitting on our ***. ...being self serving for ourselves. Currently the board is open for nomination for new board members. Maybe you should put your name in and straighten us all out.....apparently we need some guidence because we seem to have no "concerns with this issue at hand". George Hazard is taking nominations...call him.
 
Not my intention to stomp on toes just lightly step on them. Sometimes when that happens to me it helps me to refocus.

What are your thoughts concerning the future breeding market and shooting market?

Would your comments or thoughts be the same if you did not have a hunting ranch or your deer did not qualify for the many auctions crossed the country.

The reason I write these words and the thread is for the deer farmer who can not sell there breeding stock and is having trouble selling there shooters and paying feed bills

I hate to echo Obama’s words, but it is time for change.



Hell no, I do not want to be a board member again. Many of us have paid our dues. It’s time for new blood.

What if we had a new board and that board only raised deer to sell as shooters. Just a thought. Would their focus be on advertising top breeders auctions or advertising to open doors for more hunters.



100% of the deer that do not die in our pens are shot
 
The door is and always has been open to concerns, ideas, changes and direction. Nobody is beating the door down to sit on the board because it take plenty of your un-appreciated time up as many have found out and step away. I'm speaking for myself here but know what the boards focus is..... which is the industry as a whole not ones self serving ideas!

If you think putting a new board in place is the answer then get them signed up. I would be happy not to have to attend the different functions and the days at the Dept of Ag. I guess that would free me up to self serve myself.



Quit barking about this on here and bring the ideas/ suggestions to a meeting. All this chirping among st yourselves does nothing to solve any problems just ignites more.



Here an idea for ya start another association just for the shooter market....you think that will make the things better? Don't think so! Its called working together as one... if all any want to do is complain what someone is not doing then maybe they should step up and do it themselves or take the lead! I think the saying is "Take the bull by the horns"



I believe I have paid my dues as well and continue to pay...by choice. I have both interests shooter/breeder in mind when ever making decisions.



It is easy to set in the back giving directive of what should/could be done....fact is if so many are so passionate about something that is affecting them ...then get involved directly!



I gotta go ......I have hunters coming.
 
Harry are you still mad at me. Not sure if I feel the love in the words you typed. Guess there was not much love in the words I typed either. Know that I have a passion for this industry as you do.

It was not my intent to hurt any ones feelings. Especially yours. I do not know who is on the board of PDFA. besides George. I talked to Georges and he said we the PDFA has been talking about doing something concerning advertising for more hunters but we are afraid of the anti hunters. When we are afraid of something we are already defeated and dieing from the inside out. I have already brought my concerns, ideas, changes and direction to the board. This same discussion back them was met with the same hostility as it is now and I was on the board then.

How long can we keep selling breeding stock to a market that is already saturated? Know that I am happy for all persons that are selling incredible deer at incredible prices like you are and a reputation to back it as you have. I feel sad for the person who spent thousands and is now having trouble selling shooters or breeding stock. At this point I have trouble looking prospective deer buyers in the eye and encouraging them to get into the deer business.

Know that the reason I posted this thread was to encourage all states associations and members to be active and to focus on the shooting market and encourage more hunters to shoot out bucks

To be honest you and I or any one with a hunting ranch is at the top of the food chain. There were a lot of shooters available and cheap this year. Most breeders were grateful to move there shooters. What will happen next year when there are 10-20% more shooters

But I care for the little guy as most do, who put their hopes and dreams into raising deer. I do not wish for those dreams to be cursed and I just set back and say nothing.

Know that my words express the feelings of several people who have already dropped off of the PDFA

Hope your hunt went well today.



To all reading this thread. Support your state deer associations. Encourage them to bring down the wall between high fence, low fence and no fence. If we continue on the current path you could be the one selling your 200BC shooters for $3000 and $4000, if you can find a ranch that wants them.
 
Fellow deer farmers. The purpose of this thread is to evaluate the direction our state associations are going weather it be right or wrong they need our support and opinions.

650 people have looked at this thread thus far. Lets take a poll. Please speak up.



Which direction should our State associations focus on. You may give several suggestions starting with the most important.

Also if you are not a member of a State Association. Be honest and tell us why.

If you were a member and did not rejoin. Please be honest and also tell us why.



The reason I ask these questions is so that our deer associations can better assess the direction the members as a whole feel is important to work toward the goals that serve our industry best. For we are the industry.



It is in serving that we are served.
 
Wisdom I agree with your original post and have thought the same for a while. The reason for 650 views and no reply is everyone is afraid to make their "BUDDIES" mad by commenting but in most cases their "BUDDIES" just want to sell them more deer.
 
Your asking for input so I will give it.



I am not from PA and have no idea really what is or is not going on with the PDFA.

But I started reading your first post on this thread and was thinking... Hmmm some discussion about possible factors involved with the downturn in our deer markets.

However I soon realized that the thread was being used to poke at the board of the PDFA. I quickly lost interest in what you had to say.



Again I don't know who is all on the board, and I don't really know what "agendas" they may or may not have. One thing I do know is that board members of any org pour their heart and soul into trying to do their very best. Do some use their position to enhance their own farms? I am sure that may be the case in some instances. But for the thankless time and efforts they put into the org maybe some return like that is deserved.



If you or anyone has issue with the state or national org that you belong to just take the time to put together a logical and coherent statement outlining your thoughts. Present it to the board and ask for it to be considered for further discussion. If that doesn't get the effects you want then run for the board and try and make your changes from the inside. But then realize you are the one with the personal agenda, and that some may feel your agenda isn't as important as another.



Should all state and national orgs be promoting the hunting side of our industry?

Yes.

But I have a question. What exactly is it that these board members are doing to push the breeder market and not the hunting market? There must be some particular issue you have with what has taken place. Or is it just that some of the board members have had success in the breeder market and this gets under your skin?

Fact is few people are dedicated enough to put the time and efforts into being a board member unless they have something riding on the line. That means they are having success on some level at least. Which then makes them the perfect target for criticism.



Just my input.
 
I recently had the privilege to be elected on the PADFA Board to fill a vacant seat. I, as do every single other board member take great pride in trying to accomplish the great tasks placed before us. I had no idea how important the PA board is till I was able to participate first hand, and be involved. My guess is, without the PADFA that deer farming and hunting preserves alike, would no longer be able to legally function in PA. Our lobbying efforts in the capital are just and forthright and beneficial to ALL.



Andy,

I think that your comments in your first post are inappropriate in a public forum. Your points are well taken but there are other platforms to present your concerns and comments. In the past year NOT ONE person has called me personally to express any concerns, comments, or the other, NOT ONE. Is this good, no, probably not. This does not give the board and its member’s direction or focus. But our goal is and will continue to be, to preserve and promote our rights of this great industry.



To specifically name individuals and bash the board is in bad taste and you know this.



Please feel free to stop by any of our meetings and voice your concerns to the board directly. That is why we are there. My line is always open as well. We are all here to help.
 
Rodger, Josh and Harry and all who think I am bashing the PDFA or any state deer ***. member. That I am not. I respect the time, money and talents these men and women put into the associations to keep them active and alive. Please take notice that I am encouraging all deer farmers to join their state associations. I did not slander any one person nor would I ever. But it seems I have touched a tender nerve by the comment or words (a bit self serving) There was a reason I used those words for all persons serving on all boards to search their hearts true motives. If one serves the public threw an ***. they are called public servants. If the end results serve self. The end result speaks for its self.

This fall The Wilderness purchased alot of deer for hunting. The reason I mention this is to let you know I had a lot of contact with many different deer farmers. I realized there was a problem with our association when I did not hear one good comment.

That is the reason for this thread to get deer farmers talking about why they chose no longer to be part of the association or why they have never joined.

So to all you board members I have offended get over it and that’s move on. That was not my intention. Let us all focus on the positive in this thread and not the negative. Resolving unspoken problems, mending fences, more members and a stronger deer association crossed the country was and is my soul intention.

May the truth will set us free
 
Rodger you are suggesting I am envious of board members who are successful breeders. Apparently you do not know me or my hearts desire for this industry or it‘s people.

After being invited to the top 30, 4-5 times with much prayer I chose to expand to three hunting ranch’s instead of chasing that 400+ dream that could have turned into a money pit. Also by stepping out of the breeding spot light I am at home more with my family and deer where we raise 20 to 25 bucks from 200 to 300BC. Mostly typical every year. My two sons, wife, staff and I run 1000+ hunters threw out two lodges and the numbers continue to grow every year. I do not have time, will or thought to be jealous of any one for any thing. I am really thankful I followed my heart and focused on hunting

To be honest the only thing that scares me is the thought of not having hunting ranch’s to sell our deer.



I am thankful for what I have and thank God and pray for others as well. In fact if you are a deer farmer I have been on my knees praying for you, your family, your deer and your soul.
 
Wisdom,

I don't know you and really don't appreciate theway you conduct yourself... Getting on a public forum and bringing any negative dislight to the PDFA is bad for the industry. You remind me of a spineless jellyfish.

The main emphasis of a association is to protect and preserve our industry. Dave Griffith and the board do an excellent job and there leadership is one reason i chose to locate our Northern farm in Pennsylvania. The PDFA needs to make sure Peta and its friends don't put us out of business. They are doing an excellent job of protecting and growing our industry and keep ushegood work.

Associations fight for the industry to stay alive not sell hunts. That is what marketing is for. If you know of a association that will bring hunters in and book them let me know. I guess the hunting shows would go out of busiess then. I guess a better name for you would be ignornace not wisdom, because you don't understand associations.



Thanks,

Will Ainsworth

Dream RAnch
 
Wisdom said:
Rodger you are suggesting I am envious of board members who are successful breeders. Apparently you do not know me or my hearts desire for this industry or it‘s people.

After being invited to the top 30, 4-5 times with much prayer I chose to expand to three hunting ranch’s instead of chasing that 400+ dream that could have turned into a money pit. Also by stepping out of the breeding spot light I am at home more with my family and deer where we raise 20 to 25 bucks from 200 to 300BC. Mostly typical every year. My two sons, wife, staff and I run 1000+ hunters threw out two lodges and the numbers continue to grow every year. I do not have time, will or thought to be jealous of any one for any thing. I am really thankful I followed my heart and focused on hunting

To be honest the only thing that scares me is the thought of not having hunting ranch’s to sell our deer.



I am thankful for what I have and thank God and pray for others as well. In fact if you are a deer farmer I have been on my knees praying for you, your family, your deer and your soul.



Since your post above was directed to me I was hoping to read the answer to my question. But I didn't see it so I will ask again.

What exactly is it that board members did to push the breeding market and not the hunting market?

Your first post talks about how they are pushing the breeding market to self serve but not doing anything for the hunting market.
 
You are so right concerning what our state Associations have done to protect and preserve. In Pa our mission statement also includes the word promote. Promote can mean many things but in my eyes promote means to help advertise a product for expansion for the good of the industry. This we did well in Pa. to the point there are 1200 to 1300 breeders. I feel the breeding stage has almost run its course . To most of these breeders, promote now must include opening the doors to create a larger market for our shooters.



You must have miss understood me when you said. “If you know of a association that will bring hunters in and book them let me know“. We as ranch owners do not expect state associations to sell our hunts any more that the state associations are expected to sell our or your breeding stock. Yet a lot of associations are geared to sell breeding stock threw state auctions. And yes these breeder sale auctions help fund our associations. But wouldn’t we all benefit if the state associations on a national level worked to change the canned hunt stigma. By bringing down the walls between high fence, low fence and no fence.



Fellow deer raises, that includes each and every one of you. I am willing put a bulls eye on my back to bring issues to light that will change and strengthen the deer industry. Know that I do not hold ill feelings toward any one bashing or disagreeing with me. I have been taught by one much greater that I to forgive others as they are sinning against me. Life is a ministry and the definition of ministry is the willingness to be abused by those you are ministering to.
 
Mr. Foor you seem to be talking out both sides of your mouth. I have had the displeasure of hearing you bash PDFA and many of the successful breeders. Seems the many issues that you claim come from others comes from you. Somedays I think you hav good intentions but many days I feel there is some envy by you whether you admit it or not. You youself was pretty content when your breeding market was all so lucrative for you. Remember those days?

I believe you served on the board once? Can you really say you served it or were you blinded by your own agenda. Don't bother answering most know what your answer will be!

I believe you could be an asset the PDFA as well as industry if you would be a little open minded and make better choices on how to accomplish things. Has the industry lacked in pursuit to promote more of the end market. I will agree with you there but don't agree with anything you've done here. I believe this topic was beat to death on here not so long ago. Now actually try to do something more then talking and blaming.
 
Roger

The question you asked can be answered by asking your self. Does our state association have an auction. This does not include a fund raiser or auction for donations. If so what are they advertising in the auction. Who is benefiting from the auction. In other words follow the money.

Hope that answers your question. In times past that was great to puss breeding sales and still is but the market is changing and we must recognize it and change to try and meet all members needs.

Good luck on that one though!



By the way how do you take an excerpt from a bloc and comment to it in the same blog. I have not figured that out yet
 
Wisdom said:
By the way how do you take an excerpt from a bloc and comment to it in the same blog. I have not figured that out yet



Click on the quote button and the new page opens up, then with the cursor below the quote type your response.
 
No Mr Foor I do not find that much of a answer to my question. If your trying to say that because the org was party to the PA auction that means they are self serving and pushing the breeder market.

Every breeder has to have an outlet for their extra doe fawns and adult does. Auctions provide this outlet.

Yes we need an outlet for our shooters as well. I do agree that the industry as a whole needs to establish a push towards making high fence hunting more mainstream. And it is my hope that everyone is starting to realize that fact. State orgs along with the national orgs can help with this. All things come with small steps though.

There are shows that are being aired to help this effort. Funds for these shows are coming from all points of the industry. If you are a NADEFA member then you just received an email alerting you to this. If your not a member then you should be. Fact is I don't see you in my NADEFA directory. You must have been omitted during the printing of the book.

There are still many in the country who are not aware that deer farming is even an option. Every year there are "new hunters" coming to hunt ranches around the country. The numbers are growing. By new hunters I mean those who have never hunted at a high fence ranch before. Every year we have new hunters who come to our hunt ranch. We are doing this by the way we advertise. If your bringing 1000 hunters through your lodge each year how many are "new hunters"? Are you personally making the push to invite new hunters to try high fence hunting?

What would you propose the state org do to increase new hunters at your place?



From where I am sitting it seems you are more interested in pointing fingers and blaming others. But don't worry, you do a good job of using God to make it look like your actually a great guy.
 
Shasta thank you for being polite but you may call me Andy.

Know that my agenda was to unite Pa. deer farmers. To do this I donated $10,500 in sales at the Top 30. Half to Nadefa the other half to start the PDFA. Years before that time a sent out a free news paper to every deer breeder in Pa four times a years for free to unite us. That news paper is currently published by Donna Boy and is call the Breeders Gazette

I consider many of the people on the PDFA my friends. Weather we agree or not. Do you still have friends you disagree with? Friendship dies if it is built on the other person living up to your expectation. Know that I admire Dave, Harry and all others for the great deer they raise and the success they have had. If I believed in a socialist government then perhaps you could accuse me of being envois of successful breeders. How ever I strongly believe in America a land of opportunity where a worker is worthy of his success.

On another note:

I did not write this thread for deer farmers to pick sides. If we do that then we are all wrong.

Please refocus on the intent of the thread. To bring our differences to light mending fences to get more members and to bring down the walls of high fence, low fence and no fence bringing more hunters to the table to sell YOUR shooters
 
Roger perhaps Nadefa did forget. I gave them $5250 from my Top 30 sales. How much more should one be expected to give.

John 1:1-5

IndependenceRanch said:
No Mr Foor I do not find that much of a answer to my question. If your trying to say that because the org was party to the PA auction that means they are self serving and pushing the breeder market.

Every breeder has to have an outlet for their extra doe fawns and adult does. Auctions provide this outlet.

Yes we need an outlet for our shooters as well. I do agree that the industry as a whole needs to establish a push towards making high fence hunting more mainstream. And it is my hope that everyone is starting to realize that fact. State orgs along with the national orgs can help with this. All things come with small steps though.

There are shows that are being aired to help this effort. Funds for these shows are coming from all points of the industry. If you are a NADEFA member then you just received an email alerting you to this. If your not a member then you should be. Fact is I don't see you in my NADEFA directory. You must have been omitted during the printing of the book.

There are still many in the country who are not aware that deer farming is even an option. Every year there are "new hunters" coming to hunt ranches around the country. The numbers are growing. By new hunters I mean those who have never hunted at a high fence ranch before. Every year we have new hunters who come to our hunt ranch. We are doing this by the way we advertise. If your bringing 1000 hunters through your lodge each year how many are "new hunters"? Are you personally making the push to invite new hunters to try high fence hunting?

What would you propose the state org do to increase new hunters at your place?



From where I am sitting it seems you are more interested in pointing fingers and blaming others. But don't worry, you do a good job of using God to make it look like your actually a great guy.
 

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