What in the world is going on?

Thank you it worked.

IndependenceRanch said:

Click on the quote button and the new page opens up, then with the cursor below the quote type your response.

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Wisdom said:

Thank you it worked.

Click to expand...

We all learn something new sometimes.

Wisdom,

Maybe in the future you should be more careful in what you put on a forum and go through the appropriate channels such as addressing the P.A. Board if you have issues. Also just one more thing on associations, I serve as chairman of the Wildlife committee of ALFA(Alabama land and farmers association) which represents over 400,000 members in our state. In commodities you can have checkoffs such as in the beef industry where each producer every time an animal is sold a percentage goes into a advertising budget. Ever herd of Got Beef, that is how they get the money. I know of no association that tries to sell or market producers products without the producers putting in extra money like the check off system. Maybe a better approach next time instead of coming on a public forum would be to come up with something like that and approach the state and national boards with your idea. As far as the auction thing, i am Executive director of the Alabama Deer Association and our auction is our biggest fundraiser for our organization. It has nothing to do with promoting breeders over hunting ranch, it has to do with it is an effective way to raise money. Maybe since you have Wisdom you can come up with a way the hunting ranches can get exposure and also raise money for the association.

I also serve on the Nadefa board and one issue we are always trying to tackle is public perception of the hunting industry. Herd of Keith Warren and whats he doing? How about the guy going to schools and teaching kids about deer farming and hunting. How about our alliance with NRA and SCI. How about in North Dakota fighting to keep high fences alive. I could go on.

As far as your comment on bashing you or ill comments, i call a spade a spade. What you are doing is harmful and was done in the wrong manner, that is my main issue.

I do appreciate what you did in the past, however when i called you a spineless jellyfish it is means you have no backbone because getting on here and doing what you did is for cowards and is going to only divide not unite. Maybe I misunderstood you on some things.

Also i am a Christian as well and try to live my life to glorify Christ. But i don't have to tell everyone that, it called witnessing as a way of life.

Very well said will

Roger I am glad you mentioned God. I guess my response should be on the Fellowship Forum.

Do you know how much God loves you. Of coarse not, none of us can fathom a love that deep, it is beyond our comprehension. Nevertheless God created the heavens and the earth and we as His prized possession were made in His image. Sin broke fellowship with God and created a gap between man and God. 2000 years ago God became part of His creation and as a Lamb led to slaughter died on the cross to make atonement for our sins,. God in the form of Christ Jesus died for the sins of the world. (yours, mine, every ones sins. Past present and future) If all of our sins are forgiven, is every one going to heaven. Sadly not. Forgiveness does not establish relationship. A relationship takes two. God stretched out His arms to forgive us now we must reach out and embrace that relationship with all our heart, mind and soul. Proof of this relationship is forgiving others as we have been forgiven.

If we look at the cross and forgiveness any other way we will see God as a judge. When view God as a God of wrath and judging every thing we do. This belief system gives us the right to judge others.

Yes I do talk about God a lot. I have possibly broken all the ten commandments and he who has been forgiven much loves much. It has been in the depths of my brokenness I have found a faith in Jesus that will never leave or forsake me. Does this relationship make me or anyone else perfect NO. All who know Him are a work in progress. Being a Christian is a journey not a destination. Have I made some mistakes, miss quotes or been misunderstood. Yes. For that I am sorry

I do lift up the name of Jesus for it is in loving Him He can turn my worst mistakes into good and our enemies into friends. In my eyes I have no enemies, just people I have not made friends with.

Know that we can never be whole until we fill the emptiness or void that was put in our soul. That void can only be filled with Gods love and it grows like a seed when we forgive.

For each of you reading this I will not ask you if you are a Christian . But I will ask you did you learn to love. On the last Day when each of us comes face to face with Jesus. I feel in my heart Jesus will ask each of us a question. It will not be how often you take communion, how were you baptized, what is the translation of bible you read, did you tithe, Jesus wont ask you what church you attended or if you attended at all. God love is seen all threw the bible and demonstrated on the cross. So the question He will ask is did you learn to love. Forgiveness is the true application of love.



After writing the above I am sorry I ever posted the thread It was not my intention to hurt any ones feelings. How ever it is good now and then to search deep inside and find what motivates each of us.

Unfortunately most of the time "perception" = "reality" for most of us. And many of us are too lazy or gullible to dig deeper.

I attended PDFA meetings for close to a year before I was elected to the board. I can tell you that if I had been too lazy or gullible I might have believed many of the rumors that I often heard about the board. "They're only out for themselves... It's all about selling their animals for more money... etc. etc." Trust me when I tell you, this is simply NOT TRUE. But the most amazing thing happened from attending just one single meeting... I saw that the board took on ANY issue or question presented to them with great care and thought before reaching a decision. The level of discussion and thought around even the most trivial of matters was given great consideration. So yes, I was pleasantly surprised meeting after meeting at the level of dedication and sacrifice that the PDFA board members consistently bring to the table to defend our industry.

Dave would say, we need someone to attend such and such function on a Friday night... DONE! We need someone to travel to such and such place 4 hours from your home... DONE! I won't belabor the point here, but I can tell you that the current group of PDFA board members (and I'm sure others before) are anything but "self-serving"!

Are we perfect??? No, but the picture that you painted is simply not true! I respect you Andy... you've been raising deer and living life a lot longer than me, and I was always taught to respect my elders, but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with you.

I truly believe that your intentions are true and pure, and that you only want what"s best for the industry. But your perception and many others that have have believed the griping is cloudy at best, and more accurately... BLIND.

I don't always live by this rule myself as the sentence above proves, but sometimes you get a whole lot more bees with honey than vinegar.

I agree that we should bury the hatchet. The only problem is that there's been a self-perpetuating "perception" about the PDFA that's run through the deer farming community in PA, but it lacks any credible evidence what so ever. In the time that I've attended meetings and subsequently served on the board, we've NEVER, NOT ONCE, turned down anyone's concerns or issues. Our meetings are OPEN to the public... the truth is most nights there are a handful of visitors at best! It's very easy, and in fact it's human nature, to sit on the sideline and point a finger at someone else, instead of stepping up and pointing a finger at ourselves... then ask the question "what have I done to better the future of our industry"?



Respectfully,



Michael Heiter

You know I am one of the small farmers that is wondering how I am going to sell my deer...I have to admit i started getting jealous over the big guys and thinking they only worry about themselves....but then I sat back and really thought about it and thye deserve everything they have as they worked their butts off for it.......you get out what you put in......So I told myself to quit feeling sorry for myself and focus and work hard and I after putting the hard wok in like all the big guys have I can start to reap some of the same rewards.....yes things were different back when the indusrty first started but we can't go back in time we are where we are and you need to adjust. We are all out for the same thing and that is to see this Industry Survive and do well....I hate to see any deer farmers fighting we need to stay united!!

Andy, I don't know you but, Going back to your first comment i think you hit the nail on the head. I am just a small farmer trying to make it and unless shooter market pics up many farmers will be out. I think more people should speek there mind and i think this is a good place to come to get more people involved in the PDFA or anything involving the deer industry. If it means anything i didn't think it looked like you were trying to bash anyone just trying to get more people invovled. If what you said bothered people maybe they need to try to focus on more of the possitive things you said. You are very much write with out a shooter market Breeder market will die also. I to think that we should be putting more focus on the hunting end the breeding end will take care of its self. So don't be sorry for saying what you said it's all in how somebody wants to take it and if they take it the wrong way maybe they need to re adjust their thinking .

Mike thank you for your reply. It was positive heart felt, protecting, with out slandering some one else.

Preception and deception are close the same. The problem with the one who is deceaced is deceaced and sence they are deceaved they do not know it. The enemy in all of us wants us to be deceaved so we do not see the truth.

I laughed when you called me blind. Heck My wife calls me blind all the time. When I can not find something she always says it’s behind the milk. Must be an inside joke I did not get it and still don’t. But there is truth in this saying. You were very perceptive when you said I was blind. Most people live in the present. There dreams and aspirations revolve around now. This is normal, acceptable and a peaceful way to live. Trust me as I move on I am not being sarcastic. Then you have the blind people. I prefer to call them seers. They appear to be blind because of what they do and say, because they are looking into the future and not understood. The difference between blind people (me and many other) and the normal people is normal people live in the now. Does this mean the now people and the seers are trapped in the now and the future No. But ones gifts are best used where they are planted to grow and help others. Blind people or seers live in the future always planning always looking ahead. They are called blind because others can not see what they see. But just because we can not see something dose it mean it is not there. Or if we can not see beyond the present or what is in front of us the now, could we be the ones blinded by the present and the unwillingness for change. Just like the saying my wife has, It’s behind the milk. When I look into the refrigerator and can not see what I am looking for it is usually behind the milk. I was only focused on what I see in the present. We need the stability of the now people and the vision of the blind people to compliment each other as we work together using our gifting

Mike love you man. Thank you and others for serving, Continue to bring, stability integrity to PDFA, Take care of its members May you and the other board members that are in leadership always look beyond the milk.

WillPenn Whitetails said:

Unfortunately most of the time "perception" = "reality" for most of us. And many of us are too lazy or gullible to dig deeper.

I attended PDFA meetings for close to a year before I was elected to the board. I can tell you that if I had been too lazy or gullible I might have believed many of the rumors that I often heard about the board. "They're only out for themselves... It's all about selling their animals for more money... etc. etc." Trust me when I tell you, this is simply NOT TRUE. But the most amazing thing happened from attending just one single meeting... I saw that the board took on ANY issue or question presented to them with great care and thought before reaching a decision. The level of discussion and thought around even the most trivial of matters was given great consideration. So yes, I was pleasantly surprised meeting after meeting at the level of dedication and sacrifice that the PDFA board members consistently bring to the table to defend our industry.

Dave would say, we need someone to attend such and such function on a Friday night... DONE! We need someone to travel to such and such place 4 hours from your home... DONE! I won't belabor the point here, but I can tell you that the current group of PDFA board members (and I'm sure others before) are anything but "self-serving"!

Are we perfect??? No, but the picture that you painted is simply not true! I respect you Andy... you've been raising deer and living life a lot longer than me, and I was always taught to respect my elders, but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with you.

I truly believe that your intentions are true and pure, and that you only want what"s best for the industry. But your perception and many others that have have believed the griping is cloudy at best, and more accurately... BLIND.

I don't always live by this rule myself as the sentence above proves, but sometimes you get a whole lot more bees with honey than vinegar.

I agree that we should bury the hatchet. The only problem is that there's been a self-perpetuating "perception" about the PDFA that's run through the deer farming community in PA, but it lacks any credible evidence what so ever. In the time that I've attended meetings and subsequently served on the board, we've NEVER, NOT ONCE, turned down anyone's concerns or issues. Our meetings are OPEN to the public... the truth is most nights there are a handful of visitors at best! It's very easy, and in fact it's human nature, to sit on the sideline and point a finger at someone else, instead of stepping up and pointing a finger at ourselves... then ask the question "what have I done to better the future of our industry"?



Respectfully,



Michael Heiter

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Dream ranch, I do believe Andy was trying to encourage fellow dear farmers to get involved and voice their concerns to the PDFA about the industry and to do that he came to a place were all deer farmers seem to come now days the forums what a better place to reach many deer farmers. He was not attacking any body just trying to get fellow farmers to voice their opinions and thoughts on makeing this industry to work better for every one. If some take it the wrong way then shame on them for not taking the good out of what was said in Andies original comment. When someone is trying to encourage others to get involved in helping this industry i don't think it is fair that others bash him the way some have!!! By the way this isn't a popularity contest so you should say what you feel not what you want others to hear.

Fellow deer farmers. The purpose of this thread was and still is to evaluate the direction our state associations are going. Weather we think that direction is right or wrong they need our support by suggestions and opinions.

In the past week 1735 people have looked at this thread thus far. That could be a record

Lets put differences aside and take a poll.



#1 Which direction should our State associations focus on. You may give several suggestions starting with the most important.



#2 Also if you are not a member of a State Association. Be honest and tell us why.

#3 If you were a member and did not rejoin. Please be honest and also tell us why.

Please speak up.



Your comments have the power to unite, change and empower all deer associations

To those that feel as if the the original post and the follow up post benefited anyone: I believe many have expressed their displeasure with the statements made as I had originally. I don't think anyone who responded against Andy thinks that we couldn't do more to promote this part of the industry....hell if someone came to meeting and said lets promote the tails of deer to the fly fisherman for flt tying...would we turn our noses up to it? No! the question that will be asked to the suggester would how do you propose we do that? Its real easy to make demands and let someone else figure out how to accomplish.....As I and others said before if so many of you are so passionate for the subject at hand then actually try to do something to wards accomplishing.... Especially if it will effect your livelihoods.

Every year I go through a spell of disgust of serving on the board....many times I had decided to resign from the board but slept on it and thought who will step up to the plate making sure things still get done. What brought these thoughts upon me??? The complaints from those not pleased with the performance of myself and others on the board.......I now look at where the complaints come from and find most of them come from those that have absolutely no involvement in the industry other then raising deer expecting others to promote, buy and some cases seems to expect the PDFA to sell their deer. Yes that has been said to many many times we should be selling their deer....thats what the association is for.

Heiter made some very good points as well as the others and I guess you are seeing replies from those that actually sit on the board because we find it absolutely offensive when we dedicate our time and money to this association while others do absolutely do nothing but complain of what we don't do. We should not be SHAMED for getting bent after receiving remarks of this nature.



Now lets have all that are concerned and that have issue come up with some resolutes to the issue the proper way that will allow for problem solving. This is why all of us have boards to put many minds together to come up with the solutions....which is why all involved must be open minded and capable to see all views. I will admit its very hard to see others views when they are thrown at ya in this manner.



Also remember that none of us would be raising or HARVESTING deer from behind fence if it wasn't for the association...the association has continued the fight of many continued issue that come up steadily which makes raising these animals less problematic for all.





Andy, I started writing this before your last post.....maybe if you want to take a poll you should also include theses questions of:

#4 What the major issues at hand that your state association is tackling right now.

#5 If you don't know what they are doing as an association... Be honest and tell us why.





My intent to responding to these posts is not to cause controversy but extinguish it....all that know me are aware that I wear my emotions on my sleeve and confront anyone/things that I find to be of ill-intent.





Respectfully,



Harry Strawser

Hey Virgil.........Explain to me how this is not an attack on the the board Quote from Mr.Foor "However, over the past several years, the board focus seems to have turned a bit self serving with an overemphasis on the breeding market, to the detriment of the smaller breeders who purchased their deer" My main argument is that this he went about his discontent with the PDFA board complaint in the wrong manner. That is a fact!!!! Mr. Foor should have gone to the person or board he had a promblem with and address it not on a public forum. That would be a biblical approach since we keep talking about that. Now if he wants to help the deer industry in any way or has an idea i'm all for that and hope he does.

Dream Ranch do you realize you are choosing to pick three words (bit self serving) out of all the good things in the thread to continue to steer the pot resolving nothing. May I ask what you are contributing to this thread. At this point in the thread we are either part of the solution or part of the problem.

Know that I tried to call Harry yesterday to explain my intentions. I do not have a problem with any one let alone the PDFA. I was questioning their choices, motives and not their character. I was encouraged when Harry responded to this thread. That is a start of healing and working together. To get breeders involved who are not members.

Any further comments to this thread from you will reveal your true character.

A peace maker or a trouble maker.

I chose to be a peace maker, how about you. Lets get on the same side. And that is the welfare of the industry as a whole.

dreamranch said:

Hey Virgil.........Explain to me how this is not an attack on the the board Quote from Mr.Foor "However, over the past several years, the board focus seems to have turned a bit self serving with an overemphasis on the breeding market, to the detriment of the smaller breeders who purchased their deer" My main argument is that this he went about his discontent with the PDFA board complaint in the wrong manner. That is a fact!!!! Mr. Foor should have gone to the person or board he had a promblem with and address it not on a public forum. That would be a biblical approach since we keep talking about that. Now if he wants to help the deer industry in any way or has an idea i'm all for that and hope he does.

Click to expand...

Harry

I hope you never let something like this chase you off the board. You and all the great marketers of this industry are of too much value to our industry. As a "small guy" I would appreciate it if you would build my ads for me from now on. Yours always look better than mine and I am sure that would help fill some of your spare time if you step down from the board!

Andy you are doing 1000 hunts? Holy crap maybe you should take some of your marketing advice to the board. You must be good at it to book 1000 hunts. As a matter of fact bring it to Wisconsin I would love to hear it! If you served on the board and dont think what you posted was harmfull then you better go back and reread it. 3 words, BS!

I have heard alot about advanced marketing to find new hunters. I am with ya 100% but I think that is a seperate from the flexing sale prices. Consumer confidence will stabilize that. I am in construction as my main buisiness and that market is very "unstable" at best. Some guys have alot of work for next year and some have not had a call to even look at a job for next summer. Farming in general has been crap with prices similar to the 70's but people expect our industry to have no highs and lows! We are not selling oil!

Shannon Thiex

Harry I am so glad you have responded to this thread. Harry and all reading this thread. Listen to the cry of my heart. Harry I value you as a friend always have and always will. You have helped me in so many ways. Remember that half dead fawn I brought to you and you ask nothing in return. I will never forget the hug your wife gave me at your farm. I was holding the doe fawn and Paula ran up and gave me a hug so tight I though the fawn would be smashed. Know that I still have regrets of that day. I was more worried about the fawns safety than the simplicity of your wife’s hug. As I type these words I have tears in my eyes and wish I could give both of you a hug.

Sincerely know that when I typed the words in this thread my heart was crying out for the little deer farmer who is falling threw the cracks. As a board or deer association the board deals with mostly big political and logistic issues. Me as a ranch owner purchasing shooters deals with the little guys. With all this talk of Top Breeders, Top 30, Top 20. The deer industry with out knowing it has made the little deer farmers deer worthless. All they have now is the shooter market. Know that most of these little breeders are proud of what the top breeders have accomplished but are sad at the price some have paid.



I ask each of you reading this a question. Who is more important. The person raising 1000 deer or the person raising 1 deer.

Shannon

Here is my marketing advice PRAY. We intercede or pray to God to provide the finances for hunters . Then we pray for the hunters. We pray for the hunters in person before we take them hunting and we pray before most meals when hunters are there.

My marketing advice is give it to God. I am not smart enough to have accomplished what we have with out Him.

I appreciate your comments and I know so does Harry.

But the issue here is not to pick sides but to provide ideas, members and solutions to our long range problems

Thiex Deer said:

Harry

I hope you never let something like this chase you off the board. You and all the great marketers of this industry are of too much value to our industry. As a "small guy" I would appreciate it if you would build my ads for me from now on. Yours always look better than mine and I am sure that would help fill some of your spare time if you step down from the board!

Andy you are doing 1000 hunts? Holy crap maybe you should take some of your marketing advice to the board. You must be good at it to book 1000 hunts. As a matter of fact bring it to Wisconsin I would love to hear it! If you served on the board and dont think what you posted was harmfull then you better go back and reread it. 3 words, BS!

I have heard alot about advanced marketing to find new hunters. I am with ya 100% but I think that is a seperate from the flexing sale prices. Consumer confidence will stabilize that. I am in construction as my main buisiness and that market is very "unstable" at best. Some guys have alot of work for next year and some have not had a call to even look at a job for next summer. Farming in general has been crap with prices similar to the 70's but people expect our industry to have no highs and lows! We are not selling oil!

Shannon Thiex

Click to expand...

Well the way i see it the small guy wont have a chance to have breeders unless he has lots of cash and if he does become a breeder that means he has to put a perserve up and try to sell hunts or sell them to the big guys at half price.So who wins,He who has money, always have, always will.I dont really think it will matter in a few short years because they just keep makin bigger deer which drives up the price which brings us back to the guy with money.I mean 3oo class yearlings thats unreal.A great animal it is but where does it end.So i say enjoy life enjoy family and friends and do the best you can with what you have and i think alot of people have fogot how luckey we are to be able to raise such a great animal.Remember the whitetail deer was never made to be put behind a fence and someday he wont be!!!!!!

Andy, I do think most of your intentions are in the right place. I am on the board here in Wisconsin and you can ask my fellow board members that I almost always think of the little guy first. The hobby guys in my eyes are just as important as the top guys. I do think most all of your board members have that same approach. There are very few guys who have not lost money or animal value in the past year. Last year about 40% of my retirement fund disappeared also. Will it recover? only if I stick it out, if I pull out and run now it will be lost forever.(Last half of 09 was pretty good)

Here in Wisconsin we only have about 25% of the licenced deer farms as members of WOW and I am at a loss on how to change that. If you or anybody has any ideas on how to change that I am all ears. I have made phone calls to people to try to get them to join and have been told " Why the assocc. does nothing for me!" Without the great people who got together, founded and built our assocc there would be no deer farming in this state but yet that is out there.

All that being said this is still a great buisiness or hobby. Stay Possitive, help your board out, have fun, raise big healthy deer and we will be alright!

Shannon Thiex

B10088

Thank you for bringing your thoughts to the table. What we appreciated most was you said what you had to say with out picking sides. Thank you for your input. Also know God made us and created the animals and give us dominion over them. So that means animals are under mans control. As long as we worship the creator and not the creation God will fight our battles

.