a reply to : Cant move my doe

We haven't tried to market our stocker bucks this year. If things work out we will be another farm that reopens a preserve next fall. This past week a friend of mine got very good money selling his hunt bucks to Kentucky. It's getting that time of year again when the pretty bucks are about all gone. Prices every year that I have raised deer have climbed high in December as the selection dwindled. In the near future it's going to get ugly for the preserves who can't raise their own hunt bucks. There is strength in numbers and this vicious cycle is destroying our numbers. A few preserves and a few farmers are not going to win these political battles. If preserves don't get together and form some kind of council, they are not going to have farmers to buy from soon.

Hey Jonathan, Did you ever get any pictures taken of your deer?

You will be the first to get the pics and I will give you first chance at them. Thanks for asking. My step mom accidentally dunked our Cannon camera under the river. I will plan to try and buy another if I can find the time next week. I still have all ten stockers left that we didn't cut. They are a beautiful group of bucks and will make some happy hunters.

Jonathan,

I think you are spot on. Continually buying bucks on the cheap has only hurt this industry in the long run. It has made others think that they are better off opening a preserve. Thus there is more preserve competition. Cheaper is not always better. If you can't sell them you won't raise them. But, if a person just breaks even they may keep raising them just because they Like to.

The other problem is toooooo many straws of high end Semen. If breeders would protect their buck and make their does more valuable this industry would be a lot different. Too much Semen too many high end does results in does worth nothing.

Jerilee you really think that is right?  Each year more and more borders close to the movement of live animals.  This really restricts who you can sell to and who you can buy from.  Right now, if I'm not mistaken, the only states that Indiana can buy from are Kentucky and Michigan.   This is what is driving the price of does down, not semen sales.  If a producer wants to get his genetics out of his state, he needs to sell semen.  


 


Some states like Texas it is almost impossible to get deer out of the state.  If they want their genetics up North they need to sell semen.  If you personally want deer from PA, WI, OH, IA, IL etc, you need to buy semen as you cannot get deer in.  Semen sales and possibly embryo sales just might be the future of our industry if states keep shutting borders. 


 


It is easy to tell others to "protect" their semen.  Deer farming is a business and each of us want to maximize our profits.  EVERY buck has a bell curve of the worth of their semen.  It starts out at zero and someday will be zero again.  Inbetween it is the challenge of how much to sell, how much to charge and when to sell it.  I have seen many people limit their semen only to see it worth 10 cents on the dollar two years later.  They protected something that was not worth protecting in the end.  They should have sold when people want to buy rather than turn away customers and send them to another buck. 


 


Let's say you can sell 10 straws for $2000 each and protect your buck. That will be put in 20 does and produce 30-40 offspring of which half are bucks.  Lets say I sell 40 straws at $500 each and dont protect my buck.  Those straws go into 80 does who produce 120-160 offspring of which half are bucks.  We both made the same amount of money, but I have 4 times the opportunity to show my buck as a proven producer.  I also have 4 times the customers and relationships.  People that like a protected buck will like what you did and the masses will like what I did. 


 


This is just my educated opinion.  There probably is not a right way or a wrong way to do this.  Everyone needs to do what suites them and their farm the best. 

We can still also import from Oklahoma into Indiana as of today I believe.

The only way I will bring in a new bloodline to our farm will be by AI until the standards are fixed. Does the current state of our industry support embryo sales? It almost seems like there is an imaginary world and a real world when it come to our breeder markets. Because of the way the standards policy is currently administrated for trace-backs by the usda, I believe the risk isn't worth taking on our farm with what we have invested in our herd at this point to purchase live animals.

I wouldn't say all the good bucks are gone in December. We have bought some very nice ones at the same prices we paid in Sept. for shooters, although we discount our hunts in Dec. Our philosophy is a bird in the hand etc. if you keep your bucks you may get more next year, but you may lose some plus you have the feed costs. If you lose even one nice one you may only break even. but that is a decision each farmer must make. We don't have to deal with EHD, so one less worry. We raise most of our own deer, but do get unexpected hunts for sizes we are low on from time to time. Or maybe we just had a bad fawning year and need to supplement what we have. We feel we need to shoot our deer by three to make it work. We have moved some two year olds when we need to fill in. Every year you hold them costs money and you will most likely lose a few.


Most farms establish relationships with preserves and buy from them year after year. We have some folks that we've dealt with many times that are on the ball, have pics and scores ready and can move them in a matter of days. That is what preserves are looking for.

I have had good luck selling my stockers in December and January and have gotten much higher offers at this time than I have received in August and September. This year I don't think it would have been honest to have sold my bucks until late November. My neighbor Mike lost a large buck to EHD confirmed by necropsy and PCR results on October 30. I don't want someone hauling my bucks off only to have them die at the preserve of EHD before they are hunter harvested. That is not how Dad and I do business. I have sold mine to different preserves every year based on who would give me the best price. This has worked for me around 15 years while many other farms have went out of business.

It is pure economics. Supply and demand. The supply is outpacing the demand. The high end bucks are much more plentiful and becoming mainstream. To sale them in the quantity being produced the price has to come down to a level more people can afford. The 200 inch hunts are not that rare anymore. The 160 to 200 inch hunts will be the norm of the future.

Personally, I believe it will be good for the industry in the long run. As the price comes down and the quality remains much higher than free range hunts, the easier it will be to get more people to hunt the preserves.

It is costly to raise the genetics to a point where you can consistently grow quality deer. Once you get the genetics to that level you should be able to live breed and keep cost down. What I think will be harder to sale in the future is semen. If you are raising deer for shoters, 200 to 250 inches is about all a deer can carry. if you are raising deer that you have to cut the antlers off of, I hope you can sale semen. He is worthless as a shooter.

I have reduced the number of deer ai'ed every year. Next year, it will be only 5% of the does. The rest will be live bred.

That is true. We haven't AI'd for several years now. We have raised deer that are 500" but that is not what we need for hunting. You are right that a deer that can't go to hard antler is useless. If you can raise a shootable deer by age 2 year will be able to make some money. You have to move them by age three.


I guess I don't know how preserves operate elsewhere, but we are on the downswing by this time of year and will wrap up our hunts shortly after the first of the year. It isn't unheard of for bucks to start dropping antlers later in January. Between that and the cold weather it is time to be done hunting then. So we have about a month left.

I have a question for you preserve owners.   There is a debate going on in Texas right now.  They have a 10 day rule, to release a deer in a preserve, before it can be hunted.  There is a radical group, Texans for Saving the Hunting Heritage, pushing for legislation that ALL bucks shot, have to be released in the spring.  They also are pushing for labeling of our deer, that they are full of drugs and steroids,  and that we must disclose it to the hunter.  They think that hunters are being deceived by the preserves.  They feel that hunters need to be told that these deer were raised in a deer farm.  I would think anyone that hunts behind a fence should probably know that.  They are also telling the public that our deer that are shot are bottle-fed and tame.  They claim that they are trying to set ethics, but the funny thing is, they only want to address OUR side of the fence.  What are your thoughts of % loss if they are in preserve too long?  The discussions going on on their FB page is interesting.  We have probably as many farmers weighing in, as anti's.  

Gary, that would change things a bunch. How do you price a deer that is not grown out at all. What if it gets damaged, who is liable, etc.

Gary

Here in Indiana our opposition have attempted to amend our preserve legislation with language that would require all bucks harvested in our hunting ranches to have their antlers marred to indicate they were not wild. In Texas ranchers have been allowed to stock low fenced areas of their properties with their deer. It is my understanding that originally this wacko group fought and didn't want the liberated deer to be tagged because they thought the tag would help the ranch owner to manage the herd and not shoot off the better genetics that were stocked. Now the elitist have had a change of heart and are singing out of a different song book. They are looking for any angle to slander us in the publics eyes or to make our hunts less appealing to the hunters.

The political elections are more important now than ever.  The liberals must go.  Their ultimate goal is to control the land and everything on it.   We need to make lyeing liberals extinct in this country.  We may have to have an "open season" on them some day.

Bell


  I sure hope you can get your 10 bucks sold (or maybe you have by now) as I have a 295"  28 1/2" wide one here that I have tried my best to get sold and so far no takers.


 


      Praying things get better in the future.


  


   I was going to just let this go but I guess I would feel guilty not saying anything about the herd depopulation issue.


    If that is all true about that guy being so dishonest, than I have to think about WWJD. About all I hear is people bashing him. My question is, whoever knows who this guy is, why not go to him and question him about his dishonesty and find out where he is with Jesus, find out if he believes if he is saved, (1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. KJV) because if he is intentionally so dishonest then there is no way he can be. I don't believe Jesus would have bashed him, much rather tried to convict him of his wrong. Sounds like people have the nerve to go on this thread but not go right to the source. That is probably one of mans biggest challenge is fear of man (most don't even realize they are bound by it) 2 Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of love, and of a sound mind. KJV


 


  I realize this will be an offense to some that read this thread, however Gods word says to minister wherever we go.


 


   And by the way I am not afraid to post anything about my dear Lord and Savior on this or any other post and I will sign my name to it. And for those who want to bash me you can just call me 574-209-2226


     Dennis Stutzman

If someone is selling shooters I would think the time has passed this year. Most places are done hunting or just wrapping it up.