a reply to : Cant move my doe

jerrilee cave999421417795473



Jonathan you can look at it another way too is that over TIME their herd will be genetically selected but will take MUCH longer due to the length of incubation and death from cwd.




Remember when we find CWD in a herd, they are ALL killed.    Remember 21% of Brakkes deer showed nothing on their tests.  Were these deer resistant or immune to CWD?  We will never know, because they are all DEAD.  If we were allowed to farm "through" CWD, the genetically immune deer will eventually dominate the herd.  But with our "crash and burn" policy, we will never get there.

G O Whitetails999461417802406



Remember when we find CWD in a herd, they are ALL killed.    Remember 21% of Brakkes deer showed nothing on their tests.  Were these deer resistant or immune to CWD?  We will never know, because they are all DEAD.  If we were allowed to farm "through" CWD, the genetically immune deer will eventually dominate the herd.  But with our "crash and burn" policy, we will never get there.




That is our choice is it not? To farm through CWD that is!  I know 5 long years with no return but??

No, actually it's not.  There has to be a program to allow business as usual.  We need continuity of business.  Look at the Red Deer farm, in our state, 1 positive out of 500 animals.  They have depopulated, and they are still on under a 5 year quarantine, of their land.    Does that make sense??  What amount of risk is there in that situation??

G O Whitetails999481417805446



No, actually it's not.  There has to be a program to allow business as usual.  We need continuity of business.  Look at the Red Deer farm, in our state, 1 positive out of 500 animals.  They have depopulated, and they are still on under a 5 year quarantine, of their land.    Does that make sense??  What amount of risk is there in that situation??




But did they accept the state payoff they were offered and disposed of those deer on their call or did the state come in and kill them all without a nickle changing hands and no choice to the owner say to keep the deer and also take the 5 year shutdown with no movement?

no doubt mike and its a wonder nobody has done that in response to CWD yet. If they are going to give people $500 fines for violating quarantine then I cant help it a tree fell on my fence or some ***** came and cut my fence. :wub: :wub: :blink: :blink: h34r: h34r:   I'll take the $500

They did except the payout, but they get 0 for land use of 5 years.  My question is, with just 1 red deer out of 500, does that property need to be quarantined for 5 years?  How big a risk is "1".  

Any new sound thinking business man would look at the devastating monetary loss which could and will occur in this deer business from the CWD program and run from investing into this industry.  The CWD program in fact has been set up to harm the industry to the extent it will dry up in years to come and people will get out of the deer business.  This was not written to help the industry but to close it down which it will do over time.  This was smart on agenda driven agencies because there will be no compensation to any person from loss.  I've been in this business for over thirty years and can say every year it gets worse with more punitive regulations.  The honest truth is the driving force against this industry is in more State's is our own regulatory agency the DNR who we are directly in completion with for harvest hunters.  I'm finally taking my own advice and cutting my animals down to what I really have which is just a expensive hobby.  I'm sure more people will either get out of the business or reduce to a hobby level for personal enjoyment if this industry can't get over regulation and punitive rules under control.

I am so sick about reading and talking about cwd that I have given up reading most anything having to do with it. But since I had some time to kill here in Hong Kong waiting for breakfast to start I figured why not.


Here are some thoughts I have while reading this stuff.


1. There is nothing new being said that wasn't said at some point back in 2001 by all of us in WI. Everything from the rules are designed to put us out of business over time, to why don't they allow us the right to raise an infected herd to see which ones might be cwd resistant.


2. As much as we all like to think this effort by the gov is to put us out of business because we have a superior product than they do in the wild, the fact is it is not their reason.


Do we have a superior  product? Yes. But what this really all comes down to, (and this seems to simple to be true, but it is) we are dealing with two types people.


A. Total animal rights activists who feel ANY hunting is wrong and especially hunting inside a fence. These same folks view whitetails as "wildlife" and feel it is appalling they are kept behind fences and owed. Therefore they want it all stopped.


B. The other group are people who are not opposed to hunting and in fact they like it. They like it so much they are willing to push their personal dislike for hunting behind fences upon everyone else. I call these types the "purist" hunters. Sadly this group thinks it is acceptable to join forces with the first group.


 


I so very much wish the industry would have became unified back in 2001. But it did not. Other states left Wisconsin twisting in the wind as if it wasn't their issue in their own state. Also farmers in general are self sufficient people. They are not one who will join together with others for a common cause. Another drawback was the constant division that was cultivated right here on these forums by always touting the "small farmer vs big farmer" mentality. And another huge drawback was putting the average Joe deer farmer in charge of the industry. We needed people with a legal background. We needed someone with vision of the future and the experience to take the steps needed to avoid the failed status the industry is in today. I get that last one takes money, however this industry has plenty of money. Just that few are willing to part with it. And now we have our mess that won't be reversed. It is only a matter of time now until the industry is all but completely dead. I can see some pockets of life in specific areas, however it will never regain it's foothold.


But hey, don't listen to me. I am just a cranky fool who spouts off about nonsense.

Roger

I am sorry. I didn't understand the significance of this issue back in 2001 or I would have been more outspoken. Even today the average deer farmer cannot be expected to understand and fight this battle.

G O Whitetails999521417810554



They did except the payout, but they get 0 for land use of 5 years.  My question is, with just 1 red deer out of 500, does that property need to be quarantined for 5 years?  How big a risk is "1".  




No i understand and agree but those folks took the payoff so they did not live through the CWD to find out if/what genitics have anything to do with CWD or the research. I know most folks cant do that but untill someone does their own research then they will just depopulate us 1 farm at a time.


 


Who says and how can they say/enforce a person to not use THEIR land?  If they did not sign a contract or something along with the cash payoff i dont see how that could stand.

It's part of the signed herd plan.

G O Whitetails999651417822387



It's part of the signed herd plan.




We must not have one of those. I never signed anything anyways.

Roger,

I agree with your points 100%. I would like to add that when you have conflicts of interest on the board things maybe get skewed in the opposite direction. As I have been vocal about before is that this industry is bigger than the top 30 breeders of the world. We need to have a business mentality not a glorified frat house or sorority one which had ruled this industry for far too long. That is why we don't have business minded leaders. And if I was to guess, I think some of the big farms of the not so far past are starting to see the Forest. If your not in Texas the breeding industry is pretty dead, which is a reflection of poor/ineffective leadership.

Four Seasons Whitetails999681417827814



We must not have one of those. I never signed anything anyways.




They are not used until you come down with CWD.  The herd plan is described in the Standards program.

Folks I believe I will have a solution to all of our questions and facts that have been posted here on this thread shortly.

The breeding market was strong in the beginning when a lot of new folks were getting into the business and there were only  a handful of top bucks.  Back then anything associated with Flees, or Max or Maxbo brought big money.  I remember being at one of the first Top 30 sales in Eldon, Missouri when we still brought live animals to the auction, and a bred doe sold for $20,000.  It was unbelievable!  At that point people were making money on deer and semen sales were just in their infancy.  Since we have been in business nearly 20 years, things have completely changed.  First of all everybody has big deer!  Next CWD changed the ability to move deer and for a time shut things down on the breeding side (2002).  That side of the industry has faded and now the only way to keep going is on the hunting side. That side of things is growing.  But with growth comes more and more competition, and folks willing to discount hunts to ridiculous levels.  Also, the quality of the hunt and experience varies greatly from place to place, but hunters are often just looking at the $$$.  So if you offer a 3 day hunt and bend over backwards to do everything to make it the hunt of a lifetime, but then have folks offering one day hunts in small enclosures cheap, it is hard to market yourself.  Bashing your competitor is not the thing to do.  So we have to offer reasonable prices and certainly discounts for late season hunts.  That is why shooter prices have come down - it is a direct result of the hunting ranches lowering their prices, or making it really hard to keep prices even steady.  We have tried to keep our pricing the same for the past several years, again offering some discounts for late season hunts, but may have to make some adjustments.  We believe the high fence hunting industry will continue to grow as the public hunts become less and less satisfying.  We have seen a big change in the acceptance of high fence hunting in the years we've been in business.

Wild Rivers Whitetails999821417879217



The breeding market was strong in the beginning when a lot of new folks were getting into the business and there were only  a handful of top bucks.  Back then anything associated with Flees, or Max or Maxbo brought big money.  I remember being at one of the first Top 30 sales in Eldon, Missouri when we still brought live animals to the auction, and a bred doe sold for $20,000.  It was unbelievable!  At that point people were making money on deer and semen sales were just in their infancy.  Since we have been in business nearly 20 years, things have completely changed.  First of all everybody has big deer!  Next CWD changed the ability to move deer and for a time shut things down on the breeding side (2002).  That side of the industry has faded and now the only way to keep going is on the hunting side. That side of things is growing.  But with growth comes more and more competition, and folks willing to discount hunts to ridiculous levels.  Also, the quality of the hunt and experience varies greatly from place to place, but hunters are often just looking at the $$$.  So if you offer a 3 day hunt and bend over backwards to do everything to make it the hunt of a lifetime, but then have folks offering one day hunts in small enclosures cheap, it is hard to market yourself.  Bashing your competitor is not the thing to do.  So we have to offer reasonable prices and certainly discounts for late season hunts.  That is why shooter prices have come down - it is a direct result of the hunting ranches lowering their prices, or making it really hard to keep prices even steady.  We have tried to keep our pricing the same for the past several years, again offering some discounts for late season hunts, but may have to make some adjustments.  We believe the high fence hunting industry will continue to grow as the public hunts become less and less satisfying.  We have seen a big change in the acceptance of high fence hunting in the years we've been in business.




And i think thats where a hunting Org like NADEFA would help the hunting end of things.Where things were just the hunting side of our industry, not breeding. Get everybody on the same page as far prices goes and keep everybody updated on things. 

The hunting end of things is growing. Every business has those that try to undercut and are less than honest. Shows like Keith Warren's help show what we are doing. As there are more preserves there is more competition and prices come down. Also we are growing bigger deer. Once a 200" animal was a big deal and commanded a high price, not so much now. Now folks are paying for a 300 what they used to pay for a 200. The folks that really lose out are those that take many years to grow a 200. Nothing stays the same forever and you have to adjust to the market. I'm not sure what NADEFA can do. No one can control prices on either end of the equation. I think they are doing things to show the general population that deer farming is becoming mainstream. Like I said, for the time we started hunting, maybe 15 years ago, to now, it is night and day. Folks didn't even know what high fence hunting was back then and we got a lot of negative comments at shows. Now we get a negative comment once in a while, but not at all like it was. It is much more accepted and I believe that will continue. The public gun hunt here in WI was down 30% in some parts of the state from last year, and last year was bad. If the DNR continues to try to eliminate baiting, and refuses to allow people to feed deer in the harsh winter, things will only get worse. They are trying to blame it on the weather and no doe tag areas etc., but the truth is they are doing a terrible job of managing deer. They only can do surveys and issue tags. They need to do habitat enhancement, offer incentives to land owners and work with them. They could learn something from deerfarmers but of course they would never do that.

When the number of farmers hit bottom prices will come up. A person can hardly raise them for what is being given right now. It would be nice to put a little money in the pocket over costs. It's funny how Joe public thinks we make a killing raising them. Obviously they have never raised anything on a farm. That is why farmers have opened up preserves and why you see lower prices. They can sell them for more that what's being given and make some profit. And too pricing is reflected in the amenities offered. If you have a million dollar cabin you have to charge prices to pay for it.

Yes,  I'm so tired hearing "these elitists" hunters ***** about hunters paying $10,000, $20,000, and more to shoot a deer.  They think our industry is making "huge" profits on "wildlife".  We all know this is not true.  We ALL see many farmers, AND preserves going out of business every year, not being able to make a profit, or even pay their feed bills.  Doesn't our industry show the "true" costs of raising a deer, or hunting one????  This is something we as an industry needs to emphasis, every time we are questioned on these "huge" hunting fees.  You can't raise a deer, even in the wild, for the cost of a $28 deer tag, that we buy from the DNR.  We have to remind them that THEIR  industry is subsidized by taxpayers, and is nothing but an entitlement, given to them by the government, through all the state land owned, [Minnesota is almost 1/3 government owned]  and crops consumed by the wild herd DONATED by unwilling, uncompensated farmers.  The Iowa DNR, on their own website, says that 78% of their wild deer herds feed source, comes from corn and soybean fields.  We ALL know what our feed bills "are".  We need to remind these people, what THEIR feed bills "aren't".  I heard hunters last winter, at a DNR meeting, ***** that they had "a right" to shoot more deer, because they paid for "those tags".  "Those tags" paid the DNR's salary and the DNR costs.  Well explain to me why Minnesota's DNR has a state budget of $900 million dollars, and with 500,000 hunters @ $28/tag, it only equals $14 million.  Who pays the short-fall?????  Tag costs bring in only 1 1/2 % of their early budget.


We as an industry have done a poor job of educating the public, of the "true costs" of raising a deer.  We will get a lot more support from "average Joe" taxpayer, when he understands the numbers.   The DNR and these elitist hunting groups have a "fat pig" bureaucracy,  and they are trying to protect it.  We ARE their competition!!!  They see us as a "threat", and are trying to remove it.