Froth!!!! Need help!!!

Froth and bloat is why I went to straight red cap.....I love it no bloat, no froth,no residue in bottles I only used Zoologic one time because I bought a buck already on that and didn't want to change it...Their directions are mix 1 part powder to 3 parts water but I can't remember if I mixed it warm or cold.

Why do you want to mix it?

I have a lot of expensive deer on it and I love it.

A lot of people in my area BIG DEER FARMERS are using it.They trust it and they used it in the past also with great results ....My deer seem healthier and bigger and better than ever.

I don't think Red cap will prevent bloat. I used straight goat milk last year (Blue/Brown cap if you will), and had a few problems with bloating. Bloating is usually caused by bacteria in the gut giving off gas. It can happen no matter what you feed them if they get the bad bacteria...

I think the red cap is going to cost me more.I understand bloat being from bad bacteria, but I also believe bloat comes from froth and gas.

When I would feed fawns replacer they would get a barrel belly on only a few oz... I can feed my fawns a pop bottle full with no pot belly...They would even act uncomfortable on replacer. I don't think or feel their body processes it as well.

We mix the zoologic with redcap but we make a half gallon zoologic(3/1) and mix with a half gallon whole. Last year we mixed zoologic with goats milk in this manner because of cost but since we didnt have a fresh supplier of goats milk we ran out before our last fawns were born and ended up using whole milk/zoologic. It was less $ and we had less problems with illness in those 3 so we decided to try them all that way this year.....

That was my thought...That is why I put their directions on mixing with water...But I also feel it doesn't get any easier for a new person than opening a gallon jug...not mixing anything.

If you'll mix the zoologic bout an hour before you plan to use it and also if mixing in a bottle or jug remove the cap a couple times in between shakes to let the pressure out it seems to reduce the froth. Once you put that mix in the whole milk it greatly reduces the froth. We usually mix a gallon then put in the fridge and dont use it for a couple of hours. When we take it out we just put the bottle in hot tap water, let it sit 5 minutes, shake, then let sit 5 more. Its usually luke warm then and the babies seem to prefer that. Just dont forget to add the colostrum.... we use first fawn in every bottle for the first 7 days. It may not be the best but it works well for us......

Is it my false impression or is the 2009 bottle feeding trend to take a little of this and a little of that and mix it all together so "we" can claim to have a magic formula? What ever happened to folks just following the directions that are printed on the label of a product that is designed specifically for rearing newborn animals?



Painted Meadows,

I can not resist the urge of asking this one - do "expensive deer" from "BIG DEER FARMERS" digest their food any differently than cheap deer from LITTLE DEER FARMERS?



I just could not resist asking for clarification as I thought a deer was a deer, you know - a doe, a deer, a female deer - regardless of the cost to buy it or who owns it.



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Folks this is my last comment concerning store bought milk, I am done pleading the cause. If you are using whole milk and you think it is the best thing to come along, then I am happy for you. With that being said, please don't come on here after only feeding it for a few weeks and make it seem as though it is superior to replacers. Whole milk IS NOT EVEN on the same nutritional plain as any of the milk replacers on the market.



It does NOT take a rocket scientist to figure out what is more nutritionally sound for your fawns when you compare the two.



Whole milk only has 3-4% protein, whereas most milk replacers have over 20%. Whole milk only has 3.25% fat, whereas most milk replacers have over 20%. Whole milk has "less than" 1% combined minerals, whereas most milk replacers have "over" 2.5% plus, most milk replacers also include microbes to promote and nourish proper rumen and digestive functions.



As Brian pointed out, bloat is also caused by many things "other" than the milk we feed. Sucking air and drinking to fast are among the many other factors that contribute to bloating. Instead of leaving the fawn suck down all 6-8 ounces at once, break it up into smaller portions and give the little booger a breather. That itself will help reduce the chances of bloat, as well as aspiration pneumonia. If you see milk or milk bubbles coming out of the fawns nose, then you are feeding the milk way to fast.



If you are in doubt or left unswayed whether to use whole milk or not, simply ask your Vet if he/she recommends feeding the whole milk and then follow their recommendations.



These are just my opinions of whole milk based on first hand experiences, and experiences of others, and with them I hope I can at least keep just one more person from experiencing malnutrition with their fawns.





Good luck with what ever you choose.

John







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I just meant it isn't people looking for a cheap way out as suggested it is more expensive!

If i remember right 3 yrs ago land o'lakes milk replacer showed nutritonal values for mixing with milk or water. The milk mixture was higher for all categories.

John Swank said:

Is it my false impression or is the 2009 bottle feeding trend to take a little of this and a little of that and mix it all together so "we" can claim to have a magic formula? What ever happened to folks just following the directions that are printed on the label of a product that is designed specifically for rearing newborn animals?



Painted Meadows,

I can not resist the urge of asking this one - do "expensive deer" from "BIG DEER FARMERS" digest their food any differently than cheap deer from LITTLE DEER FARMERS?



I just could not resist asking for clarification as I thought a deer was a deer, you know - a doe, a deer, a female deer - regardless of the cost to buy it or who owns it.



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Folks this is my last comment concerning store bought milk, I am done pleading the cause. If you are using whole milk and you think it is the best thing to come along, then I am happy for you. With that being said, please don't come on here after only feeding it for a few weeks and make it seem as though it is superior to replacers. Whole milk IS NOT EVEN on the same nutritional plain as any of the milk replacers on the market.



It does NOT take a rocket scientist to figure out what is more nutritionally sound for your fawns when you compare the two.



Whole milk only has 3-4% protein, whereas most milk replacers have over 20%. Whole milk only has 3.25% fat, whereas most milk replacers have over 20%. Whole milk has "less than" 1% combined minerals, whereas most milk replacers have "over" 2.5% plus, most milk replacers also include microbes to promote and nourish proper rumen and digestive functions.



As Brian pointed out, bloat is also caused by many things "other" than the milk we feed. Sucking air and drinking to fast are among the many other factors that contribute to bloating. Instead of leaving the fawn suck down all 6-8 ounces at once, break it up into smaller portions and give the little booger a breather. That itself will help reduce the chances of bloat, as well as aspiration pneumonia. If you see milk or milk bubbles coming out of the fawns nose, then you are feeding the milk way to fast.



If you are in doubt or left unswayed whether to use whole milk or not, simply ask your Vet if he/she recommends feeding the whole milk and then follow their recommendations.



These are just my opinions of whole milk based on first hand experiences, and experiences of others, and with them I hope I can at least keep just one more person from experiencing malnutrition with their fawns.





Good luck with what ever you choose.

John







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I am not going to turn this into a big argument on what is better for who.....there are plenty of replacers out there that are just fine...I am also not going to try to make someone feel like a fool by asking them a sarcastic question as John did above.....John she was simply trying to make a point. John while I respect the fact that you are a veteran Deer farmer and you seem to have a great deal of knowledge. That doesn't mean you can't be wrong! I do agree with John that you really don't need to be mixing things like the whole milk with the replacers trying to come up with some perfect milk to feed....follow the instructions on the replacer as that is how it was made to be used........you are going to run in to troubles trying to mix these things together. I will not bash any milk replacers even if i did have some troubles with them as I can't be sure that it was the replacer that caused the problem at that time....there are many factors that can cause your fawns to become ill.......like not cleaning their bedding area often....or their bottles after every feeding......or stimulating them enough......or hundreds of different things........whole milk is being used by many farmers BIG and SMALL and they are having great success with it.......now the same goes for the replacers........John is wrong on his numbers that he qoutes for the whole milk....at least for the whole milk that i use.......the whole milk I use has ....this is per 1 cup serving size....8g of fat 12%.....5g sat. fat 25%......8grams of protien...does not list percentage......sugars 12 grams....sodium 120mg.......vitamin A 6%.....Vitamin C 4%.....Calcium 30%.....Vitamin D 25%......again those numbers based on a 1 cup serving........now I surely won't guarantee that if you use whole milk your fawns won't get sick and I wouldn't guarantee that using replacers either....like i stated above there are so many factors that can cause your fawns to become ill........I will say that I like using a God made product over a man made product as God is the one that created the awesome creatures....he ought to know how to make the milk to feed them......we have a lot of dairy farmers here that use there whole milk to feed their calves and i can assure you they are not malnutritioned...... I also agree asking your vet is a great idea and go by what he or she directs you to do......good luck and my your fawns grow to be big and healthy!!

CameronCrow said:

If i remember right 3 yrs ago land o'lakes milk replacer showed nutritonal values for mixing with milk or water. The milk mixture was higher for all categories.

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This is true Cameron, as you will be picking up or adding the small amounts of protein and fat from the whole milk, whereas water has none.... The mixture with whole milk will have a higher nutritional value when compared to the mixture with just water, if you follow what I am saying.



Look at a cereal box and note the differences between the nutritional values of the cereal and the cereal that has milk added to it. The nutritional values of the cereal with milk increase by the amount the milk is contributing.



I think I need to clarify something. Mixing whole milk with milk replacer is not what I am debating, it is actually a great idea. My debate is with feeding straight whole milk and the nutritional concerns due to the low nutritional values of just plain ol' milk.





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Don't sugar coat it John, tell us how you really feel. By the way, 27 years ago, I used whole milk too. Once they began producing a replacement milk, I was thrilled and had much stronger and bigger fawns as the result of the replacers. I have used Lamnurs, Zoologic, Superior, Lone-Star, Purina, Fox Valley, Goats Milk.......and a lot of others over the years that I can't remember the names of. The bottom line is that all of the replacers gave me bigger body weights, and better year 1 antler growth than I ever experienced with milk even before the caps were red, blue or any other color. Heck, the milk was in cartons and had a corner you unfolded to pour. Maybe its the cap!

Scott, you have had better luck with the replacers than with goats milk or are you just talking cows milk? Just curious.

The replacers have out performed goat's milk, cow's milk both processed and from the dairy, and all of the old concoctions such as karo syrup-evaporated milk-water mixture, etc. I judge the performance with the following criteria....larger body weights, better year one antler development, body fat entering first winter, coat texture and appearance. I have found over the years, digestive problems are more likely caused by parasites, diseases and external factors as opposed to the milk one feeds. Have I had problems in the past with diarreha, coccidiosis, bloat, etc? Sure, but I had those same problems when I first began raising fawns too. If I were to use a natural milk, it would be pasteruized goats milk and I would attempt to find a goat farmer with a Nubian or Alpine herd, as their milks are generally more nutritious than the Spanish, Boer and Pigmy goats.



But again, this opinion is mine and not intended to suggest others are incorrect. I always offer my opinions for consideration, not as gospel.

Thanks Scott, I just wanted your opinion. We feed pasteruized goats milk from Nubian's. You answered my question thanks!

PS if you pay $20,000 -$100,000 for a doe,a deer,a female deer.... is it still just a deer???

ddwhitetails said:

I am not going to turn this into a big argument on what is better for who.....there are plenty of replacers out there that are just fine...

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Nor am I DD.... I like a good ol' debate as it cleans out the cobwebs and gets people to say what is really on their minds. We all learn and benefit from it.

ddwhitetails said:

I am also not going to try to make someone feel like a fool by asking them a sarcastic question as John did above.....John she was simply trying to make a point.

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I know what she was doing DD, and I just want to keep it in perspective. All deer are the same, regardless of whom owns them, what they are fed or how much they cost. Some just grow better antlers than others.



Just the same as you and I put our pants on the same each morning, I am no better than you or anybody else on here. We are all EQUAL, regardless of what deer we own or what we choose to feed. I want to make that very clear right here and right now. I started out like everyone else and enjoy learning as I go. If you think that I am looking down on people, you are sadly taking what I write way out of context.

ddwhitetails said:

John while I respect the fact that you are a veteran Deer farmer and you seem to have a great deal of knowledge. That doesn't mean you can't be wrong!

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Who ever said I was right? I am just stating my opinions like everyone else.

ddwhitetails said:

I do agree with John that you really don't need to be mixing things like the whole milk with the replacers trying to come up with some perfect milk to feed....follow the instructions on the replacer as that is how it was made to be used........you are going to run in to troubles trying to mix these things together. I will not bash any milk replacers even if i did have some troubles with them as I can't be sure that it was the replacer that caused the problem at that time....there are many factors that can cause your fawns to become ill.......like not cleaning their bedding area often....or their bottles after every feeding......or stimulating them enough......or hundreds of different things........whole milk is being used by many farmers BIG and SMALL and they are having great success with it.......now the same goes for the replacers........

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I agree with you DD however, one fellow that I know read these forums last year and decided to try straight whole milk and ended up with nothing but troubles that a necropsy confirmed was malnutrition linked to the whole milk. Am I wrong for wanting to possibly prevent someone else from having the same problems?



Maybe if someone would take the time to provide an instruction sheet along with the promoting of feeding whole milk, like the amounts per feeding, etc, etc, then people would not run into problems. Instead, they assume you only have to feed 2 ounce per feeding, like replacers, when instead most of people who are feeding whole milk are doubling or even tripling those numbers.



You got to keep in mind, there are a lot of people who just read and do not participate on the forums. If one person jumps off a cliff, it seems like deer farmers will eagerly line up to do it, just so they can say they did it too.

ddwhitetails said:

John is wrong on his numbers that he qoutes for the whole milk....at least for the whole milk that i use.......the whole milk I use has ....this is per 1 cup serving size....8g of fat 12%.....5g sat. fat 25%......8grams of protien...does not list percentage......sugars 12 grams....sodium 120mg.......vitamin A 6%.....Vitamin C 4%.....Calcium 30%.....Vitamin D 25%......again those numbers based on a 1 cup serving........

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Looks about the same as the milk in the fridge, except I think the percentages you are referring to are the recommend daily allowances based on a 2000 calorie diet, not the actual percentage levels of fat, protein, etc.... If I were on a 2000 calorie diet (more like a 6000 calorie ) and I would drink 2 cups of milk, I would have reached 50% of my daily allowance of sat. fat for the day. But hey, if you say I'm wrong, then I must be wrong...

ddwhitetails said:

now I surely won't guarantee that if you use whole milk your fawns won't get sick and I wouldn't guarantee that using replacers either....like i stated above there are so many factors that can cause your fawns to become ill........

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I don't think anyone would make that guarantee as you said, way to many variables.

ddwhitetails said:

I will say that I like using a God made product over a man made product as God is the one that created the awesome creatures....he ought to know how to make the milk to feed them......

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My thoughts exactly, we should just leave the fawns on mom and let mother nature do what she does best, instead of trying to "play god" by offering a fawn something from another animal that is not even of the same species or has the milk nutritional values of mom...



Sorry, I don't mean to sound like a smart *** here, but what you just said makes no sense all, as it takes people to milk the cows, haul the milk to the dairy, people separating the cream, people to bottle the milk, deliver the milk and then ultimately feed it to the fawns. Doesn't seem to be as simple as a fawn sucking milk from a mothers teat...

ddwhitetails said:

we have a lot of dairy farmers here that use there whole milk to feed their calves and i can assure you they are not malnutritioned......

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DD, we are raising deer, not cattle. Milking cattle have been bred for hundreds of years to meet the demands of humans, not their calves and surely not the demands of fawns. This is why calves are put on a nutritionally rich "calf starter feed" to help offset the low nutritional value of the milk. Calves will also start eating on their own in just a couple days, unlike fawns that could be a couple weeks.



Look, I am happy for all the new people that got into deer farming. I like watching the industry grow and all the ideas that are shared here. It is kind of like going back in time and witnessing when I and others were starting out and trying to figure out all the mystery questions.



However, you gotta learn to take your bumps and bruises like the rest of us have done when we tried to blow wind up someones *** who has been there and done that... If you think that is a bit harsh, ohh well... I guess that's the price you gotta pay for all the great information on here... I've taken my bumps and bruises when I started out and paid my dues just like the rest of em... I still have a few bumps that NYBill and Thelma inflicted. You should read a couple of the post I made 5 or so years ago when my bottle fed buck attacked me. Come to think of it, I have a few bruises and bumps left from the folks on here over that one too, especially from Steve Kennedy or Scott Heinrich who thought I was still on the roof of the barn with a lap-top.. ....





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PaintedMeadowsBJs said:

PS if you pay $20,000 -$100,000 for a doe,a deer,a female deer.... is it still just a deer???

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PM,

If that $100,000 doe would have a visit from a stay dog, would it not stand a chance to die the same as a $50 doe? If that $100,000 doe were accidentally shot in the head with a dart, would she not die the same as a $50 doe? If that $100,000 doe were exposed to EHD, would she not die the same as a $50 doe? If that $100,000 doe were fed milk a little to fast and got aspiration pneumonia, would she not share the symptoms and risks of death as a $50 doe?



Just because someone forks over $100,000 for a deer, it does not, I will repeat that, IT DOES NOT make that deer any less susceptible to death then a $50 deer. If you are going to have trains, you are going to have wrecks - regardless of how much you spent on the train. That's all I was trying to say.....









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