Froth!!!! Need help!!!

What the heck. This red cap **** will kill more fawns than it will save. EVER. I wish you people with all the answers would take the phone call from the people I do after they take the **** advise given on this forum from time to time. I hate posting on here but some of you should stop posting here and find something else to do. John, all that you can do is try to help. People know it all just ask them. They will not listen until all hell breaks loose ans **** is dieing and then the panic takes place. Now too little fat reserves from Red Cap F'in milk and the fawn is dear.



Good luck all you will need it the way some of you sound on here. By the way 29 years bottle feeding fawn. Probably over 500 fawns , but don't beleive me. Ask someone who has had deer for 2 years.



Fred

Found this looking into things.



Goat * Cow * Human

Protein % 3.0 * 3.0 * 1.1

Fat % 3.8 * 3.6 * 4.0

Calories/100 ml 70 * 69 * 68

Vitamin A (i.u./gram fat) 39 * 21 * 32

Vitamin B1/thiamin (µg/100 ml) 68 * 45 * 17

Riboflavin (µg/100 ml) 210 * 159 * 26

Vit. C (mg ascorbic acid/100 ml) 2 * 2 * 3

Vitamin D (i.u./gram fat) 0.7 * 0.7 * 0.3

Calcium % 0.19 * 0.18 * 0.04

Iron % 0.07 * 0.06 * 0.2

Phosphorus % 0.27 * 0.23 * 0.06

Cholesterol (mg/100 ml) 12 * 15 * 20

After some research it seem's that deer's milk is indeed richer than goat or cows milk. Deer milk is 8.2% protein and 7.7% fat. This is probably why the fawns take in twice as much milk than they would off mom to meet their needs if you are feeding goats milk.(or cows milk for that matter). Maybe it's also why they get such a small portion of the replacers in comparison. A mega dose of the replacer I would think would be hard on their young kidneys. After feeding goats milk in the past and deer replacer this year it seems the fawns get hungry alot sooner on the replacer but stools and pees are smaller. Rick

Not picking a fight but just offering a thought and an observation. Most people on here are new and each has their own way of doing things that they think is right. Most people dont seem to know how to put a value to the information received on here wether it comes from someone who raises 10 deer a year or if its from someone that raises 100 deer a year, someone thats done it 2 years or 20 years. In my mind this forum is for information but theres a lot of speculation and opinion on here as well as it should be. A person cant take a single post as 100% the absolute way to do things. Its my observation that most of the "new users" dont take the time to anticipate a problem they might have before they start something. They just jump on here and ask a question when something comes up and go with the first or most popular answer they get. If a person took the time to research the old forums and the new ones they would find a lot of answers before they ever had a question to post.



Its one thing to knock red cap milk, its another to knock the people that use it. They made the decision to use it and they'll have to live with the results wether good or bad. The people that use it DECIDED THEMSELVES to use it. No one made them use it. They made that decision based on peoples opinion, facts, and speculation. If a person is not intelligent enough to differentiate the three and use accordingly then they deserve to learn things the hard way. They brought it on themselves so you cant knock the other people that use it or have an opinion about it.



Wether you feed goats milk, replacer, red cap or any combination of the three you're going to eventually have some sort of problem. None of the three alone are perfect and feeding any of them requires additional nutritional support from something else. No matter what you feed you're going to have to supplement something in some way, I believe if you dont then you're asking for trouble. Who's to say the goats milk from supplier A is equivalent to the milk from supplier B? Its my opinion that most people dont take the time to evaluate everything they do before they do it, to me thats the problem, not the product.



I personaly think its good to see some of the new posters challenging the old posters. The products are changing every year and some are getting better because of the challenges brought up on here because we're the people taking the ideas to our local suppliers. There's probably a dozen people on here that I read every post they make because often times there's valuable information there. I do think its wrong for someone to criticize as harshly as Fred did but there are some others on here that seem to enjoy throwing fuel on the fire. This forums changed a lot in the time Ive been reading it, some for the better some for the worse.There's a lot of old timers out that that have learned plenty since they quit posting on here, some of which may contradict something they posted 5 years ago. to me thats the best information. I wish they would come back and post more of their ideas and thoughts. I wish you would post more Fred, but if you do you have to realize there are people on here now that will challenge everything you say. I may be one of em but its not in disrespect, just a push to get more information out of you... Just play fair and be considerate that my son is ten and absorbing everything he reads like a sponge as I'm sure there are plenty of other kids out there that are being brought up in this business and use this forum as a learning tool.

I am not on here to get into a peeing contest I am a girl I squat and can't win...

With that being said, I am stating my opinion with grown adults (And Issac)

All of whom I feel are intelligent enough to make and look into decisions...

I don't feel a forum is for communist /dictators to degrade and attack anyone and everyone that has a different opion...

If there was only one right way why does a forum allow multiple posts?

If all the professional with all the right answers would please write a book...

...I will be the first to buy it ...Until then please let us share without being attacked...

If I am not wrong (WHICH I AM SURE I AM) forums are for everybody (new and old) to share if everyone on there already Knows it all...They wouldn't work well...The same if everybody is attacked no one will post things...That would be bad.

I have talked to many new people who are afraid to post...Wonder why

Buckskin said:

After some research it seem's that deer's milk is indeed richer than goat or cows milk. Deer milk is 8.2% protein and 7.7% fat. This is probably why the fawns take in twice as much milk than they would off mom to meet their needs if you are feeding goats milk.(or cows milk for that matter). Maybe it's also why they get such a small portion of the replacers in comparison. A mega dose of the replacer I would think would be hard on their young kidneys. After feeding goats milk in the past and deer replacer this year it seems the fawns get hungry alot sooner on the replacer but stools and pees are smaller. Rick

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Great find Rick. I think it is great when someone goes out and researches a topic and then contributes their findings - Good Job



With that being said, we need to keep in mind that nutritional numbers for liquid milk are based on a wet matter basis, not a dry matter basis.



What does this mean?



From my understanding it means that the powdered milk replacer nutritional data is based on dry matter basis. In other words, in order to calculate the true "as-fed", or wet matter basis of replacers, you will need to calculate the amount of water per replacer concentration in order to get the true "as fed" level of the liquid. This is how I understand it anyway.



For example, if you mix 1 part of replacer to 3 parts of water and the dry matter basis of protein in the replacer is 26% (before mixed with water) this would give you somewhere around 8.6% protein on a "as-fed" basis.



With this information, you are able to fluctuate the mixing concentrations to meet the nutritional needs of your fawns or other animals. If you use whole milk or goats milk in place of water, then you will need to calculate in the added nutritional content of these as well, in order to get the true as fed levels. Same goes for fat and other nutrients.



Please don't be confused as I may have led some to believe that fawns are receiving 20+% protein or fat with replacers - they are not unless they are being fed only the milk replacer powder itself. As far as goats milk and cows milk, if one looks into it you will find that milk from sheep is richer and the closest in value to does milk, should someone elect to use it as well, although I wouldnt recommend it.





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Liveoak,

Very well and respectfully said....



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Regards to all and can we put this topic to bed?



John







.

Thanks for clearing that up(dry vs wet protein). I figured there had to be a reason as that is quite a bit more protein in the replacer and i've herd an overload of protein can harm the kidneys. rick

It seems I have lost my tact. If anyone thought I was talking to them personally you are wrong. Live Oak said it much better than I could. People read this forun as if it were the Bible. You experts need to keep that in mind as you give your advise. To blame those who listen to your poor advise is irresponsible on your part.



By the way Dennis I do my research, and will continue till the day I die. Other folks don't have time or know where else to look for GOOD information. Maybe you need to keep that in mind!!!



As for my use of colorful language. Hell, is in the Bible the last I read. ****, is what deer do many time a day, and F'in, spells nothing. You must be using an imagination for that word.



I know of hundreds of fawns that have already die this year because of bottle feeding problems. For you new people It is by no means easy when **** hits the fan and your babys are sick. Contact your veterinarian, they can help. Most vets. have the ability to take known information from other speices and use that to help your fawn(s).



Red cap milk has less than half the required nutrients need to properly keep a fawn healthy. don't fool yourself into thinking you are doing the best for the fawn. Starvation hurts!!!



Milk Replacers, for the most part serve as good nutrient replacements to the does milk.



Pasturized goat milk also works well. Many time as pointed out by others. it can be hard to find, and you have no control over the health of the herd of goats. Pasturization is a must, other wise you are exposing your deer to what ever health problems the goats may have.



I know fellows that use whole Jersy milk. Much higher in fat and protien than Holstien milk (most common dairy cow), that get along well with it.



Deer are classified as small ruminants. The milk stage of their live is short lived. The sooner you get your fawns eating anything the better for the fawns it will be.



I still mean Good Luck!!! everyone needs some from time to time.



fred

iadeer said:

It seems I have lost my tact.

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Nah Fred, I don't think you lost your tact, just a new breed coming along. I think we will soon need to adjust though, as I heard the bottom fell out of the Emu and Alpaca markets...







No pun intended towards anybody - it's just an ol' sayin is all....

Fred, I was wondering what worked best for you such as replacer, nipples, etc. over the years? Thanks

John,



I believe youre right on the dry matter protein. Which leads me to a question/theory. If a fawn is getting between 4-8% protein from the milk the first two weeks and then we introduce alfalfa and pellets (14-20% protein) to the fawn, plus most pellets consist of about 8% fiber, arent we encouraging scours and stomach issues at an early age? Would it be better to start a fawn on a pellet with about 10-12% protein and maybe 2-4% fiber to help ease the fawn into a regular pellet at weaning? Has anyone tried or talked this over with a nutritionist before?



The fawn pellet we use is 20% protein and I know theyre growing animals but I dont even feed the mature deer a 20% pellet. Just a thought and wondering if you or anyone else had given it any thought or research.......

Why can't we just all get along? Why? Why?

Nothing wrong with new ideas just cause some just started posting on here doesn't mean they are new to deer farming. there are many ways to do many things if red cap is so bad why don't some of you guys puting it down tell what happens when you use it evidently you have tried it and had some bad experiances. This is my first year using it so far working great fawns are 4weeks old and much bigger than ones on mothers that are close to same age. Quit blowing smoke and give some examples of your experiances and please try to help out one another . I don't care what the lable says i care about the final out come so far i'm impressed and is much easier i started using cause i now some old timers using for years and thier fawns are always big and healthy. maye you now something they don't please tell i'm listening. Ps,no need for foul langage either.

Liveoak said:

John,



I believe youre right on the dry matter protein. Which leads me to a question/theory. If a fawn is getting between 4-8% protein from the milk the first two weeks and then we introduce alfalfa and pellets (14-20% protein) to the fawn, plus most pellets consist of about 8% fiber, arent we encouraging scours and stomach issues at an early age? Would it be better to start a fawn on a pellet with about 10-12% protein and maybe 2-4% fiber to help ease the fawn into a regular pellet at weaning? Has anyone tried or talked this over with a nutritionist before?



The fawn pellet we use is 20% protein and I know theyre growing animals but I dont even feed the mature deer a 20% pellet. Just a thought and wondering if you or anyone else had given it any thought or research.......

Click to expand...

Steven,

I see where you are coming from and that is a great question. On the surface it seems like a logical and methodical approach.



I got an eye opener two years ago when I was in Mexico A/I'ing for a ranch. During the visit the owner took me on a tour and was showing me all the wild vegetation that was growing and available to the deer.



Honestly, I guess from being born and raised in the Appalachian Hardwoods, the only thing I saw there were a bunch of "jaggers and thorns". To my surprise though he started naming off all the different jaggers and telling me the nutritional content of them. I could not believe that the majority of them were well over 30% protein.



This got me to thinking about the 16% or 20% protein available in "most" commercial feeds. Now, if the native deer in Piedras Negras, Mexico were consuming native vegetation mostly in excess of 30% protein, why are we only feeding 16%? To this day I am still trying to figure that one out..



I think it is a really good question you asked and I think it would be best left to a nutritionist or veterinarian to answer, in my opinion. I don't want to lead you or anyone else in the wrong direction with just a guess...







.

I think this thread is great! I read deer farmer because whitetails are my passion, and use it for a form of entertainment. (I don't get out much) It was good when John came on but know with Fred it got better! You must not know Fred if you think you will hurt his feelings, he's pretty thicked skinned! Haven't used cow milk but last year and the year before went to see fawns at peoples ranches that did and came to my own conclusion. Thought about useing it because of cost. Spent over $25'000 on goat milk and replacer last year alone so beleive me when I say my eyes were wide open. Some of the fawns thrived on it but saw alot of small skinny fawns that didn't. Later seemed to have alot of broken bones. From the milk I don't know. Raised as many or more fawns than anyone in the world so I think I know what I'm looking at! Kids have been raised on formula for years and in my opinion that sucks, so I'm not saying it can't be done just don't beleive it is the best! No disrespect ment just one old "fading" mans opinion! Keep it coming that's good entertainment! Get your armor out and smile!!! ZZ

I agree ZZ. I think we all have to be a little thick skinned and try to not take things so personal. This forum is great entertainment but I can get alot of information and advice. I started out 3 years and didn't know what I was doing so I can and have learned alot. It seems like I learn a whole lot more from my mistakes than I do from what I am doing right. The range of farmers on here is big, from those that are just starting out with 1 or 2 deer to those that have 100s or 1000s. That is what makes this site cool! I always hope to get my daily laugh and a little info from here.

I agree with ZZ. It seems sometimes people are afraid to say what they really mean for fear of offending anyone. If people get this offended about what they feed thier fawns, imagine how offended someone could get when we criticize the antler or passdown caracteristics of thier favorite "super sire." I would like to see more types of these disussions without everyone getting so defensive all the time.



OK! off to feed 103 fawns! See Ya!

Good morning Brian & ZZ my father meet both of you this spring in Texas and Missouri. Many of our practices today are based on the great advice you both gave. I would just like to say getting up at 5:00Am to go bottle feed is a bit early, not complaining but could you please please consider the youth.

Caesar Kleberg Wildlife Research Institute in Kingsville, TX and Texas Parks and Wildlife researched the optimal level of protein needed for a deer to reach its full potential. This number was 16%, for that the rest falls on the ground for you to step in. It is their opinion that the reason why most feed companies sell over 16% is customer demand. Feed companies are not trying to sell to the deer they are trying to sell to the ranch owner. Just like at Bass Pro Shop when the lures are all shiny and the packages are attention grabbers, 20% and 24% protein levels are to sell the ranch owner.

Cameron,



Do you know of anyone that offers less than a 20% fawn pellet? Ive read the research you spoke of and our main pellets are 15 and 16%. We tried Angelo Pellets fawn extender pellet last year and the deer prefered that over our regular pellets which I believe was more of a taste issue because of the minimal milk replacer added to the pellet. During the transition, mostly weeks 4-7, when they began eating more of the pellets the stool went from being pelleted to toothpaste like. We treated the symptom with the usual pumpkin in the bottle because the stool samples evaluated didnt show any reason to use anything else. The records are accurate that 86% of our fawns went through this 2-3 week phase. With a percentage like that it just got me to thinking it may have been the pellet and pellet intake.



Palmers can make a 14% pellet but it will be a 5/16 pellet because of the ingredients and binder. Its been my experience the fawns prefer a smaller pellet. This year I'm trying the superior pellet and the AP pellet to compare the results, both of which are 20%....



Monty, didnt you guys have AP try to make you a fawn pellet a couple years back? I'd like to hear what pellet you feed or prefer, or any thoughts you might have when you get up tonight.