Steve, I would love to buy some Texas deer. The only problem with TX deer is their status. It is my understanding that there is only two farms that have enough status to move them into Oklahoma. 4+ years of CWD is what it takes. TB/Bruc accred/cert
Joined Jul 2009
1,215 Posts | 0+
Deer Park, Alabama
Over time the borders being opened or closed will not matter. The supply of deer will determine the price. In Alabama the price is high right now but the number of brreders is quickly growing to meet that demand. In the next few years supply will out pace demand and the price will go with it. Opening the borders would simply cause that to occur a few years earlier. Once the supply equals demand and the breeders are selling their deer for about the same amount of money then shipping costs will be the difference.
I do agree that if the border is closed then you should not ship out of state. The main point is the market will saturate local or nationally sooner or later. High prices will encourage competition either locally or nationally and open or closed borders will not be a big deal one way or the other. Once the supply is adequate, who would pay to ship a deer all the way across the country?
The only solution is to grow the hunting market at every level. We have a product that people should be willing to pay for but most people do not even know our hunting preserves exist. The average hunter is already paying good money for leases then must contribute several work days per year. After they have spent their time and money there is not even a deer within miles of them worth hunting and they know this from the game cameras. So why would they not jump at hunting in a preserve where there is quality deer to hunt and use their work days to play with their families. Just incase you think I am biased beause I live in Alabama, I have no plans to sell deer. I am raising deer to shoot. The breeder market has done an excellent job in improving the animals available but the end market for most of us is going to be shooters.
I do agree that if the border is closed then you should not ship out of state. The main point is the market will saturate local or nationally sooner or later. High prices will encourage competition either locally or nationally and open or closed borders will not be a big deal one way or the other. Once the supply is adequate, who would pay to ship a deer all the way across the country?
The only solution is to grow the hunting market at every level. We have a product that people should be willing to pay for but most people do not even know our hunting preserves exist. The average hunter is already paying good money for leases then must contribute several work days per year. After they have spent their time and money there is not even a deer within miles of them worth hunting and they know this from the game cameras. So why would they not jump at hunting in a preserve where there is quality deer to hunt and use their work days to play with their families. Just incase you think I am biased beause I live in Alabama, I have no plans to sell deer. I am raising deer to shoot. The breeder market has done an excellent job in improving the animals available but the end market for most of us is going to be shooters.
Joined Apr 2009
702 Posts | 0+
Marquez, TX
Arrowhead Whitetails said:
Michael, that's the other problem. Who wants to test that much
Btw, I think it's ridiculous you have to drive around Texas to deliver deer. I think if anything we should at least be able to move deer to adjoining states, like OK, LA, NM, AK.
It looks like all of our opinions on this subject with the exception of a couple are pretty predictable and differ mainly by location and we all know and agree why... Money.... We haven't heard from very many people in closed border states that are not happy and want it to stay that way.. or.. to find many people that are in open border states that want the closed border states to stay closed... I am interested in hearing the reasoning from more people in alabama or texas that are not pleased with the closed borders and why they would like them to be open... So far i believe we have heard from seven and its over 71% in favor of keeping them closed.
Joined May 2009
1,166 Posts | 0+
Tuscaloosa, Alabama
I see no logical reason why a breeder in a closed state would want to open the borders and lose everything they have worked for. Unless they need alot of deer meat!!
Will,
I don't know where you got the 300 preserve number from. According to data provided to me today by the AL DNR, there are only 141 permitted enclosures and in 2008 there were 118.
Since I have been accused of being "Forest Gump" by one of the good ole boys in AL, I have to ask a few questions about the industry there. With your closed borders, your prices are quite high compared to states with open borders. That being the case, I would thionk your prices for hunts are much higher as well. Why would someone pay more for a 200" buck hunt in AL than another State? It just seems to me that sooner or later, you guys in AL will have to get competitive with other shooter ranch prices or lose clients......especially as our economy gets worse. Another question I have is how are the out of state sales of WT deer? What makes a client want to pay more for a Maxbo doe from AL than one from say Indiana?
Now ole Forest might not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but he does know the value of a dollar.
I don't know where you got the 300 preserve number from. According to data provided to me today by the AL DNR, there are only 141 permitted enclosures and in 2008 there were 118.
Since I have been accused of being "Forest Gump" by one of the good ole boys in AL, I have to ask a few questions about the industry there. With your closed borders, your prices are quite high compared to states with open borders. That being the case, I would thionk your prices for hunts are much higher as well. Why would someone pay more for a 200" buck hunt in AL than another State? It just seems to me that sooner or later, you guys in AL will have to get competitive with other shooter ranch prices or lose clients......especially as our economy gets worse. Another question I have is how are the out of state sales of WT deer? What makes a client want to pay more for a Maxbo doe from AL than one from say Indiana?
Now ole Forest might not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but he does know the value of a dollar.
Joined May 2009
1,166 Posts | 0+
Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Joined Jul 2009
1,215 Posts | 0+
Deer Park, Alabama
I am from Alabama where the border is closed and I am not for or against the issue because I do not think it matters in two years or less. With the number of breeders here the supply will soon be higher than the demand and economics will rule the day. Almost every breeder in Alabama AI'd last year and this year. With production at this level the price will decline on many high priced deer. In Alabama and every other state the only solution is hunters.
Most of the Northern deer will not even survive here. When I started two years ago, I bought some northern does and some Southern does and all the Northerns are dead and all the Southerns are alive. I wish this was not the case because I love the size of the Northerns. They have the body size and mass we all want but may not be able to sustain in the South. Just ask Richie or anybody else with Northerns how many he lost last year.
I believe we call them Northerns because they are adapted to the North. Why else would natural migration have not brought the Northerns here over the last couple thousand years? I know I would not buy a Northern again but I will take a southern doe and AI to Northern bucks in hopes that the immunities of the doe will pass to the fawn.
Most of the Northern deer will not even survive here. When I started two years ago, I bought some northern does and some Southern does and all the Northerns are dead and all the Southerns are alive. I wish this was not the case because I love the size of the Northerns. They have the body size and mass we all want but may not be able to sustain in the South. Just ask Richie or anybody else with Northerns how many he lost last year.
I believe we call them Northerns because they are adapted to the North. Why else would natural migration have not brought the Northerns here over the last couple thousand years? I know I would not buy a Northern again but I will take a southern doe and AI to Northern bucks in hopes that the immunities of the doe will pass to the fawn.
Brett if your border was open just think how many big northerns you could buy and shoot off every year you wouldn't have to keep them from one year to the next.Probaly get them alot cheaper to.
Brett,
I liked you views and believe you are pretty accurate... I hope for the sake of paying the bills you are not right about the northerns..That is pretty much all we have and have invested alot in northern genetics... It does seem that the farther south you go in the state the more health problems you have with northern deer... We are located in north alabama and have been raising deer for about four years and have lost one yearling doe (smoked the fence .dogs) and five fawns for different reasons...But i do know of farms that lost alot of deer in 07' when we had all that hot dry weather... And in case I may have missed my stats on the last post it may be more like 65% against opening borders... I went to douglas high school....
I liked you views and believe you are pretty accurate... I hope for the sake of paying the bills you are not right about the northerns..That is pretty much all we have and have invested alot in northern genetics... It does seem that the farther south you go in the state the more health problems you have with northern deer... We are located in north alabama and have been raising deer for about four years and have lost one yearling doe (smoked the fence .dogs) and five fawns for different reasons...But i do know of farms that lost alot of deer in 07' when we had all that hot dry weather... And in case I may have missed my stats on the last post it may be more like 65% against opening borders... I went to douglas high school....
Joined Jul 2009
1,215 Posts | 0+
Deer Park, Alabama
Triple R
I can only base the northern survivability on my experience and I am about as far south as you can get in Alabama. The northern parts may not have as many problems but the farms in the southern part got burned in07, 08 amd 09. That may just be our problem in the deep south. Or hell, it may just be my ignorance because I am not the most experienced farmer out there. As far as the border I do not see why people would ship a deer all the way down here once the market is balanced - and it will balance. Virgil I agree that deer would be cheaper with the border open for now but soon the prices will be about the same here as everywhere else. My point is we should concentrate on marketing our deer to hunters to get the shooter price up everywhere, then we all win!
I can only base the northern survivability on my experience and I am about as far south as you can get in Alabama. The northern parts may not have as many problems but the farms in the southern part got burned in07, 08 amd 09. That may just be our problem in the deep south. Or hell, it may just be my ignorance because I am not the most experienced farmer out there. As far as the border I do not see why people would ship a deer all the way down here once the market is balanced - and it will balance. Virgil I agree that deer would be cheaper with the border open for now but soon the prices will be about the same here as everywhere else. My point is we should concentrate on marketing our deer to hunters to get the shooter price up everywhere, then we all win!
Scott,
Do me a favor and before you post on a forum asking me where i got my numbers from pick up the phone and call me. You could be percieved as the Forest Gump if you keep questioning Alabama law and regs without knowledge.
The numbers you recieved are from the Department of Conservation whick permits breeding facilities and propagation permits. There are 141 licensed game breeders in the state and more propagators.
In our state if someone wants to high fence their property for an enclosure there is no permit or regulation other than regs that apply to general hunting. We believe in Alabama that fencing is a property right of ours without any permit or fee, just like any other fence any one puts up, and that is the way we want to keep it.
The number 300 is number of high fences we know exist in our state and there are probably more.
As far as losing clients in the hunting business i can only speak from experience. We cater to the corporate client and try to offer a 5 star experience, all of our customers are satisfied and are coming back. We haven't had to discount anything. We beleive there is more to the hunt than just the kill.
No one has sold deer out of state and can't until April if everything goes through on the CWD program. Then the farms would have to Tb and Brucellosis test to ship out.
I can't answer why someone would pay more for a Maxbo doe from Alabama than Indiana.
Do me a favor and before you post on a forum asking me where i got my numbers from pick up the phone and call me. You could be percieved as the Forest Gump if you keep questioning Alabama law and regs without knowledge.
The numbers you recieved are from the Department of Conservation whick permits breeding facilities and propagation permits. There are 141 licensed game breeders in the state and more propagators.
In our state if someone wants to high fence their property for an enclosure there is no permit or regulation other than regs that apply to general hunting. We believe in Alabama that fencing is a property right of ours without any permit or fee, just like any other fence any one puts up, and that is the way we want to keep it.
The number 300 is number of high fences we know exist in our state and there are probably more.
As far as losing clients in the hunting business i can only speak from experience. We cater to the corporate client and try to offer a 5 star experience, all of our customers are satisfied and are coming back. We haven't had to discount anything. We beleive there is more to the hunt than just the kill.
No one has sold deer out of state and can't until April if everything goes through on the CWD program. Then the farms would have to Tb and Brucellosis test to ship out.
I can't answer why someone would pay more for a Maxbo doe from Alabama than Indiana.
If you can sell out of state come april i hope the borders will be open so i can sell into your state only fair thing to do.Doesn't mater either way open or closed but if your state chooses closed then they need to keep all their business inside of the borders. If i can't sell to you then you should not be able to sell to me or be in any auctions that benifit the rest of the industry that you guys don't want to be a part of.
You know what makes me sick is it is all about how much money that you can make with them closed.
Not what is right for all Deer Farmers or our industy
Joe Headley
President of
Alabama Game Breeders Assc.
Not what is right for all Deer Farmers or our industy
Joe Headley
President of
Alabama Game Breeders Assc.
Buy the way I would urge all breeders to join the Alabama Game Breeders Assoocation.
On the open and Closed Boarder issue this is my personal opinion I am not speaking for the organization....
On the open and Closed Boarder issue this is my personal opinion I am not speaking for the organization....
I'm also from Alabama. I don't believe that the borders will ever be opened up in this state. There are too many people with a lot of money invested in this business to let that happen. I was sort of forced into becoming a more serious breeder because of the high cost of shooters. Don't get me wrong I love raising deer and can't imagine doing anything else, but I could not run a profitable hunting operation paying 70% of the shooting price. There was not a enough shooters out there for the demand even then 2005-2006. So, I started raising my own. I had to pay good money all my deer, and I had to experience loss the same as everyone starting out. I'm just now starting to have enough to sell some deer to other people. I think we should leave the border closed and let the demand influence the market. If the demand out ways the supply then more people will get into growing shooters and supply will increase. I think most of the new blood getting into the business here see the prices people are getting for breeding stock and they find it more attractive and that is why enough shooters aren't out there. Of course what they don't realize is the time, money,and effort it takes to grow that class of deer. I don't think we should close out semen. We have seen a drastic increase in the quality out the breeding stock here since semen has been aloud into the state. I'm not sure if shipping out of the state will change all that much in our market. It all depends on how many people jump on it. I agree with Brett on a number of things, butcompletely on the northern genetics surviving. People don't think of Alabama as a big deer state. We are known for our long season and liberal bag limits. Our hunting preserves are going to change that. I also don't believe that very many deer shipped from up north would make it very long here, but I have been able to get northern and north/south cross genetics to live in my area. I've got a pure northern buck that will be 7 1/2 this year. I'm not as south as he is, but I'm 70 miles south of Montgomery.
Troy Zacchini
Troy's Hunt Club
Troy Zacchini
Troy's Hunt Club
Brett
Maybe we should try some of my deer down there. I would be interested to see if they fair any diferent over the sort distance.
Maybe we should try some of my deer down there. I would be interested to see if they fair any diferent over the sort distance.
Headley, well said. Just a quick question. If I joined the Alabama Breeders Association would I have the right to vote on their issues? In Oklahoma, you can only join as a associate member with no voting rights.
Yes as a member in state or Out has voting right.
55.00 year
250.00 Life time
Alabama Game Breeders Assc.
P.O. Box 1730
Clanton, AL. 35046
55.00 year
250.00 Life time
Alabama Game Breeders Assc.
P.O. Box 1730
Clanton, AL. 35046
