Our Industry, 8000 Deer Farmers, Only 300 Attend Auctions

Midwest Deer Sales said:

Very well stated John. That is the feed back I am looking for.

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I am confused by this Eric...

If it was the feed back you were looking for then why do I sense such negativity directed towards me when reading the remainder of your post?

Midwest Deer Sales said:

There is just one small problem in your comments. You or no one else can meet all of the folks that attend auctions or even get to know all of them if you do not attend at least one auctions in your area. It would be impossible to travel to every state to see them all. John I agree auctions are not for everyone.

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I agree, and that is why I stated if a person were to focus on meeting the needs of the remaining 97% of the market, they won't have as many problems trying to sell their deer. It costs money to attend auctions, money that can be used to buy feed. Focus your investment on the larger portion of the industry, rather than at meet and greets. I think most people enjoy going to auctions and I too recommend supporting your state and National Orgs. Those folks work hard for the donations from the deer farmers.

Midwest Deer Sales said:

My point is that if what you say is true,why do I have folks that call me every day and say i have "x" number of animals I need to move and can't find anyone to buy them. What do we as an industry say to them then.

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I get the same calls, Eric. Unfortunately in most cases it is the guys that are asking WAY to much money for a 180" 3 year old Maxbo or Pa Geronimo son. They bought in at inflated breeder prices and are trying to recoup costs in a very tight, and low cost of production, shooter market. Hunters do not care if the 180" buck they are hunting came from a big name at a select auction or from Jim Bob down the road. In the end the hunter is buying a 180" buck regardless of the stacked pedigree.

Midwest Deer Sales said:

In your words I guess this is what you would say,"There are a lot of things you could do, but just don't attend those darn auctions."

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I read and reread my post and nowhere did I write anything remotely close to those words, in which you "quoted" as being from me. I didn't put words in your mouth, please don't put them in mine.

Midwest Deer Sales said:

No John that is not what I am asking here. I am not here to defend or disagree with what folks like or don't like about any auction service.

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Umm, Ok.... Yea! You are really confusing me here, Eric. In your opening comment you stated; "Very well stated John. That is the feed back I am looking for."

Midwest Deer Sales said:

What I am asking is how do these folks, that have deer to sell and can't, find an outlet to sell their animals but they do not attend auctions where 100% of the audience is in the deer buying market.

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You are really confusing me, and I do get confused a lot, but I think I see where you are coming from. The topic of this thread is "8,000 deer farmers and only 300 attend auctions". I gave a view point from the side of the 7,700 that do not attend. So yea, only 300 potential buyers, or only 3% of the industry is in attendance. I got ya, I think.



A good place to start with the folks that have deer to sell, and can't, would be to give them the statistics that 97% of the industry is focused on the shooter and hobby markets. That would be excellent advice, IMO. Then maybe there will not be so many new comers trying to sell shooters at breeder prices, which ultimately sends the preserves on down the road to those that understand the reality of the industry.

Midwest Deer Sales said:

I am not here trying to boost our auction company or even trying to get new folks to send me their consignments. If I wanted more consignments I would just ask for them. We do not have a problem getting folks to send in consignments for a sale. What I am asking is when an auction is close to your area, why is there not 1,000 or 2,000 people there. I am not asking them to even buy anything in this forum. I am asking why are folks not there trying to learn more about their industry and the folks that live near and around them. I am truly looking for answers for the small guys in this industry.

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I have already answered why I feel there are not 1,000 or 2,000 people in attendance. There is a bottleneck and most guys can get just as good of stock (in most cases) directly off the farm and at much better prices, IMO. Folks are looking to produce the 97% of the industries animals at the lowest COP (cost of production) possible. They cannot afford to spend the additional money to attend, let alone buy anything. Most guys are sitting on 30, 50 or 100 more straws of semen. They have what they need to last for years. It's now about hunkering down in order to survive a rapidly flooding market.

Midwest Deer Sales said:

I am not looking for some cynical answer from someone that thinks they are braver than anyone else here to give me the answer you just posted John.

This is exactly the type of cynicism that turns off the small guy before he even gets a word in edge wise.

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I am not brave, I just call a spade a spade. If it's black, I'm going to call it black. These small guys you are talking about, are they the ones that have deer and can't sell em? Maybe they will come to the darkside and see the reality that deer will sell themselves if you produce what 97% of the industry is looking for. Sorry, couldn't help the "cynicism"

Midwest Deer Sales said:

John not everyone travels all over the country AI'ing deer and knows 100's of other farmers. You have a different set of credentials than most John.

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Wait, hold on here a minute, and I'm not being cynical, either. I just want to understand this a little clearer. As an Industry we are to recommend that people travel to auctions and get educated, but then after they get an education we should scold them for sharing what they learned? I don't see the benefit in following such a study lesson, do you?

Midwest Deer Sales said:

Now would you please stop and look at the question and give me another answer.

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Is this a multiple answer quiz? Did I get the first question wrong? Dam, I guess I need me more education. Where's the next auction located?



Ok, I was being "cynical", Sorry. I already posted the answer I believe to be the correct one.

Midwest Deer Sales said:

I am looking to help this industry grow and prosper. I am looking for forward thinking, and not what if's or has been's. If you have a good point or suggestion please post it on here. If you just want to give me the same old song and dance I here everyday, then please don't reply.

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Absolutely, forward thinking is leading me to think about what are we going to do with all these deer that are being produced? Being that only 3% end up in the auctions, how is the other 97% of the industry going to cope?

Midwest Deer Sales said:

Marketing 101 says, "Sell to those that want to buy."

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Marketing 201 says, "produce a competitively priced product that the largest portion of the market can utilize. Then you will not incur warehouse expenses due to inventory leftovers from rapidly changing product trends of a 3% market share".





Look Eric, I know where you are coming from and I respect the efforts you are trying to make. It's a complicated and diverse subject. Everyone has and raises deer for so many different reasons that it is going to be next to impossible to try to tackle at the 300 farmer level. Just like the forum, with only 800 members, we are only addressing the issues with 1/10th of the deer farming population. In my opinion, and many others, the auctions do not hold that much importance to so, so many. We need to take a look at the overall picture and focus our attention on the larger portion if we are to gain any support of the 7,700 other farms.



Have fun, and don't take it personal. I am with you on this one... I'm just on the opposite side of the same fence.









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Eric,



You asked how many deer I sold last year off the farm to answer the question I can tell you that I sold every thing I tried to sell. I do go tho auctions and try to met as many people as I can and have got a few leds for the auctions but most of the buyers that come to me are through word of mouth or from these forums.

I do go to as many auctions as I can I do buy from auctions but the points John made are things I hear a lot from those that I know in that 97%





I know you already said you don't want to here the same old song and dance that you hear every day but you would think that if you heard it every day that there is a problem that may need to be fixed.

Shouldn't a doe that you paid $2500 with an ok pedigree that produces 200" shooters at 3 and her daughters that are producing 200" shooters at 3 still be worth $2500 at the time a person decides to sell her. The one thing I'm trying to keep in mind when buying anything is one thing that I recently read in the paper (forget what it's called right now)....that the person (author of the article) said that they've never had a hunter ask what the pedigree of the buck he was shooting. They shoot the buck that appeals to them. Whether it be typical or non typical....staying out of that argument. To each his/her own. I'm just saying my thoughts....yes, I'm one of the "newbies". I guess, my insight on this is you really don't need $10,000 does with awesome pedigrees to obtain your end market result. The end market of whitetails (for most of us) doesn't rely on pedigree. It relies on the producing ability of the doe/buck of producing what we need to sell. Yes, we may have a harder time "selling" our extra does, but if the majority of the deer farmers are really staying out of the auctions, not selling for the breeder market, then there is a market for the $2500 shooter producing does out there.

The only thing I can say is ...

The auction can be a tool to sell your deer...

It can help in many ways...

If people don't know you have deer they can not buy them.

The auction is good even if you are little, put something you can afford to loose...I wouldn't put DO NOT PUT JUNK (put you best deers fawn)something to get your name out there ...says hey look at me! but something you can let go even if it brings nothing...What did you loose for free advertising someone (I don't know how many auction catalogs are sent out) looked at your name that didn't before....and if you know how to handle yourself and market your deer you could walk away very pleased! With money from the auction and future sale from the person that bought one deer could turn into many let alone the contacts...One listing can branch to many sales...I Don't want to pick up one deer I want to make my trip worth while...and bring other deer friends with me so 1 sale can really snowball to many...but it all depends on you!



I see one person complaining that has hurt himself so many ways in business it isn't funny....From not taking pictures of his great bucks to not advertising. I sold out of deer and was calling people looking for more...I called 3+ times asking for info or pictures of bucks...they were sold if he could see them but was picking up 4 from me and didn't want to drive over just to look! Nothing...Then called saying how slow business was cause there is too many deer farmers. I have turned down calls looking for deer three years in a row.



1 you need good deer unless you want to eat them...Well even then if you have small deer ect. you would be working against yourself. YOU NEED GOOD DEER.



2 It seems many don't want to do foot work, they want everything handed to them...Business doesn't work like that (how many business's have people that will advertise and try and sell their products)

3 You have to have a good product and want a reasonable price

4 big names and reputation sell cause it is a reliable and well marketed product.

People Buy comfort! I am not going to buy a deer if I don't know if it is half staved ect...People put stuff in an auction and then don't go??? Go show pictures sell your product if your have no face or name no one will buy from you no matter how good it looks on paper. IT DOESN'T MEAN THE BIG GUYS ARE ALL FIXING PRICES...That would only last so long...



I can already see where some people's business plan is failing,The second they open their mouth!

People sit on their ***** and talk bad about the deer business and whine then wonder why Don't I sell more deer...HUMMM



Sorry I didn't even state what I came here to...But others post popped things in my head...I will take a breath for now!



I'm not trying to offend anyone...just saying there may be reasons and things you can do to help yourself and the deer industry as a whole.



AND PS John...I did agree with almost everything you said in the first posting but a different way of looking at it.

Eric

Thank you for this thread

Know that you opened up can of worms between the 3% and the 97%. The reason the (7% are not at the sales is complicated ad bring up some issues some of the 3% may want left unsaid. I must speak for the 97% as I am in the 97%. I used to be in the 3% and go to a lot of auctions in years past and did well until buyers for the most part started looking at pedigrees, biggest yearlings and consigning one deer and selling five, 400 over 400. I must say I admire the 3%. They were able to adapt to change, willing to advertise, willing to spend a lot of money and think of new gimmicks to make their deer seem more sellable.

There are several reasons I quit going to auctions. #1 As John said: I was selling every thing I wanted to sell off of the farm. #2 The last few auctions I consigned at I got allot less for my deer than I was getting selling them off the farm. #3 It is embarrassing for a seller to stand in from of a crowd and be humiliated at what their deer just sold of or no sale. #5 To have sellable deer at an auction the 97% have to purchase the 3% semen, does or breeders bucks and after a breeder in the 97% spends thousands and thousands of dollars. He still may not be able to get into auctions. (guess John called this the bottle neck) how ever the 97% can get into any auction if they give the 3% and the auctioneers enough money. #5 There are some awesome deer in the 3%. There are also some deer in 3% and the only reason they are there over better breeding is because of GOOD ADVERTIZING. (know that I compliment all who have done this, You have invested time and money. I am glad it paid off)

#6 My breeding program is not focused on the 400BC over 400BC pedigrees to get in the auctions. I like and raise big typical bucks and does with 200+ typical well bred into their pedigrees. #7 Most persons running the auctions discriminate and show favoritism between sellers. #8 I do not agree with the games played by some of the players at the auctions. I must confess at previous auctions on some of my consignments, bidding games added hundreds if not thousands of dollars to my final check.



Eric I tried to get into the last two Pa. Sales and be part of the 3% but the sales were full. I had three power packed pedigreed does from top breeders to consign.

On paper they are the best does I have. There are two reasons I wanted to take them to the sale. #1 They have the pedigree and the names behind them to make them highly sellable. #2 I would rather have the money some one else thinks they are worth. #3 Our no name does are producing hands down a lot better offspring. To be honest some of the most expensive does I purchased have set my breeding program back wards.

Many breeders in the 3% may not notice this because their fawn crop is listed in the next auction .



From the beginning I have always bred for what I like in a deer and not for what will sell it at an auction.

Midwest Deer Sales said:

I was wondering why our industry has some 8,000 deer farmers and on any given year why only 300 or so attend or opt to put something in an auction. That is a little more than 3%. Are there truly 8,000 deer farmers in the U.S.? Please give me your feedback as I am trying to figure out how we get more folks involved. The more involved, the louder the voice of our industry! Any suggestions would also be helpful.

Thank You

Eric Pinkston

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Midwest Deer Sales said:

John, Now we are getting to the core of the answer. I kind of baited you on this one.

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Do you like what you caught? Am I keeper or are you gonna throw me back?

Midwest Deer Sales said:

I understand what you are saying about the shooter market. The pedigree doesn't matter. There are 2 sides to this industry though. The breeding side and the shooting side.

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Agreed... A 3% breeder market compared to a 97% shooter market. Doesn't it seem more realistic to introduce the new folks to the larger portion of the market share, rather than throwing them under the bus by referring them to the 3% breeder market? Right out of the gate, the new comers face a daunting task of trying to recover a ROI in an already heavily guarded breeder market. Instead of helping, let's just throw them right in the lion's den rather than showing them how to survive in the real world with the other 97%.

Midwest Deer Sales said:

With all of the deer the shooting market raises they also are raising the same number of "DOES" that are worth almost nothing. So if you are comparing shooters at a value of 1,500-4,000 then the real value of those deer are 750-2,000 because the other half (DOES) are of no worth unless they are sold or marketable with a decent pedigree.

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I think you are confusing the breeder market with the shooter market. A pedigree isn't what decides what good breeding stock is, or will be. A pedigree is only a record of breeding - it determines absolutely nothing other than "who" the ancestors are. A pedigree is not an indication of "what will be" but rather a record of "what has been". Good breeding stock are those that produce marketable offspring, while maintaining a low cost of ownership. Guys buying breed stock for the 97% market share really don't care about an anchor doe in a pedigree. The biggest concern is what is the deer "putting on the ground" in regards to body size and what do the buck fawns and doe fawn grow up to be like.



If you got a doe, or any deer for that matter, that consistently produces good offspring, that buyers are able to see in real life and with their own eyes, you will NOT have a problem selling bred doe, open doe or doe fawns for decent money to the 97% crowd. You will however, have problems trying to sell something to the 97% crowd at a high price that was initially purchased based off of a piece of paper and hype. The reality of it is, that piece of paper has no significant meaning to the majority of the industry. Shooting stock are produced every year from $100,000 deer just the same as a $500 deer. It is the cost of ownership that will determine if a farmer will make money by selling 180" 3 year old shooter stock, or not.

Midwest Deer Sales said:

Which brings me back to the question of going to auctions and making connections and partnerships at these events.

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As RoughCountry and Redwood stated, when you produce what 97% of the industry is looking for, people will find you. I do agree with you that making connections and partnerships can benefit, but for the most part your deer will sell themselves if you have what a buyer is looking for. The buyers WILL find you as the preserves will also promote the type of deer you are producing.

Midwest Deer Sales said:

John I still did not see how many deer you sold off of the farm last year?

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Eric, that is a fair enough question and I will be more than happy to answer it if you are willing to answer some personal questions about yourself and business, first.



How many deer did you run through the auctions last year and collected huge sales commissions on? How many high dollar advertising spots and booth spaces did you sell to the 3% breeder market? I think these are fair questions considering what you are asking me to directly divulge about my personal business. If you answer my questions I will be more than happy to tell you how many deer I sold, culled and collected commissions on last year.



I am being nice and actually find this topic to be quite educational. I am able to get a glimpse of the mindset it takes to be in the 3% breeder market, as well as what it takes to survive in a 97% shooter market.





Have fun, and don't take it personal. I am with you on this one... I'm just on the opposite side of the same fence.









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Eric another reason I have no desire to go to a deer auction. I know of many breeders (let’s call him breeder Joe) who have spent thousands of dollars on un-proven great does on the illusion of a pedigree and AI-ed them very expensive semen from phenomenal bucks. Breeder Joe now attends auctions selling his expensive genetics and in some cases have never raised a 200 inch buck let alone a 200 inch two year old or 200 inch yearling. In fact in your auction catalogs, if you made it a rule you could not post a picture of a buck in ones ad unless said buck was born on your place. There would be a lot less to printing cost and mailing.

There would also be a lot less 3 % and more 97% in the auction books in the near future

I have raised three 300+ inch bucks and this year had 25 bucks over 200BC. If I took my best does to an auction I would be humiliated because they do not have THE NAME, THE PEDIREE. Yet to make my deer more sellable for future auctions I must purchase deer from breeder Joe. Think I will keep my money in my check book and let that up to the other suckers. What is a sucker. Some one who did not do their home work and got sucked or caught up in a loosing high stakes breeding game.

It would be helpful if auctions were held on Friday & Saturday versus Thursday & Friday for the people who have a full time job Monday - Friday as they can't attend. It would be nice if some us new farmers would be recognized at the sales sometimes instead of always recognizing the "Big Guys" those who spent alot or sold alot. Some of us can't compete with that due to our lack of funds because we put everything we had into our farms getting them established. I understand you have to recognize the guys who are spending the money but they started at one point or another just like the little farms. There are so many things I would like to do ie: have a booth at a auction, advertise but right now it just does not fit into the cash flow. Don't get me wrong Eric what the auctions do are a great thing - but some people just don't have the money to travel to auctions. There was one auction that I put a flyer together about our farm just being new & starting out. I sat back after I passed them out & watched so many people take our flyer & throw them away that it was almost a slap in the face. Not one person came over & introduced themselves or said "Hi" welcome to the deer business. That inself is a killer for a new farmer. I am not trying to start an argument just joining in on the conversation.

Just a side note...

Everybody needs to do home work in this buisness.

I bought a Maxbo XL choice fawn... I chose a buck at an auction...

I could have never got it from of a the farm for what I paid. I think more should go it is a good way to keep bloodlines new and different you just have to know what is right for you to buy...

It's like buying a lambo and bitching about gas mileage and it don't even drive through the mud...

Well you Don't go to the auction to and pay a fortune to shoot it...It is an investment in your business if you don't invest money...You will not get any out...But you have to know how to grow your investment.

Eric, we too are new to the deer business. However, we have made it a point to get involved and not sit on the sidelines and ***** because noone is marketing our animals. Do the big boys make good money? YES Have we made good money in the sales so far? YES. It is a matter of how you plan to market your animals. Our plan is the breeding stock side of it. Will we have shooters? Hell yes... Not ALL breeding stock will make a breeder therefore, they are a shooter. As for the auctions, what a great place to meet people and form friendships, partnerships and sell your animals. I too have had animals turned down by the auctions. Some that were bought from that very auction a year or two before. Was I mad? NO They are doing their job of creating a solid group of animals for ALL the buyers and sellers. Hey Roger, Wayne and a few of you other new guys to the auctions have you made any money? I Know you have... Just from us...lol You guys are these "BIG BAD BREEDERS"

Wisdom, if you have a doe that produces a 300 inch son, let me know when she is for sale. I'm always in the market for a proven producer.

TallTines said:

It would be helpful if auctions were held on Friday & Saturday versus Thursday & Friday for the people who have a full time job Monday - Friday as they can't attend. It would be nice if some us new farmers would be recognized at the sales sometimes instead of always recognizing the "Big Guys" those who spent alot or sold alot. Some of us can't compete with that due to our lack of funds because we put everything we had into our farms getting them established. I understand you have to recognize the guys who are spending the money but they started at one point or another just like the little farms. There are so many things I would like to do ie: have a booth at a auction, advertise but right now it just does not fit into the cash flow. Don't get me wrong Eric what the auctions do are a great thing - but some people just don't have the money to travel to auctions. There was one auction that I put a flyer together about our farm just being new & starting out. I sat back after I passed them out & watched so many people take our flyer & throw them away that it was almost a slap in the face. Not one person came over & introduced themselves or said "Hi" welcome to the deer business. That inself is a killer for a new farmer. I am not trying to start an argument just joining in on the conversation.

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I will give comment to this post.



Tall Tines,

One issue with the deer industry is the Amish make up a huge portion of the industry. I don't and won't pretend to know all the particulars, but some of their churches require they be home by a certain time. I think it is by midnight on Sunday morning. So in order for them to attend auctions and other deer events they need to be able to travel home before that time. That is one reason for so many events taking place on Thur, Fri, and Sat.



Being a small farmer myself. (Small meaning in numbers of animals) And being an average kind of guy I can relate to your growing pains just starting out. It know exactly what you mean about the flyers thing. I have printed up a couple of hundred flyers and laid them out on the tables at an auction and it bugs me to see them get tossed aside. I always think about how I spent all that money and now they are laying on the floor like garbage.

Let me share a story with you.

In the spring of 2007 I had a set of triplet buck fawns born here that I felt really good about. I named the 2 boys that lived Updraft and Downdraft. Later that winter I was going to go to the Top 30 sale in Jan 2008 so I made up a flyer with the pedigree of these 2 boys on it. It also had some pictures of the bucks associated with the 2 buck fawns. I also (to be funny) included a picture of 2 thunderstorms out in the distance. The 2 storms were right next to each other and one was a mature storm with heavy rain and therefore major Downdraft activity going on inside it. The other storm was growing in size and therefore had major Updraft activity going on inside it to feed the storm. I would guess no one but me figured out the meaning of the picture.

Anyway I printed off a few hundred of these flyers. I probably spent about $300 on them. I laid one on most of the chairs and tables in the whole joint. Late on the last day of the sale I got a call from a guy named Wes. He and his friend were at the sale and saw the flyer and took it with them. On the drive home they called me asking about the buck fawns and said to keep them in mind for when I eventually had semen to sell.

The following fall we collected semen on Updraft. He was an ok buck. He scored 168 4/8" at age 1. These 2 guys ended up buying 5 straws of Updraft from us that fall. The only straws we sold that year. That one sale paid for all the flyers I had put out on the chairs the year before.

Along with that sale there were several others who must have picked up the flyers as well because over time I would get calls asking about the bucks and I could tell they were referring to the flyers I had that year.

My point is don't get discouraged by the ones you seeing tossing out the flyers. It only takes a couple of people keeping them to make the cost and effort pay for its self. And some exposure is better than no exposure.

We all have to start someplace.





And by the way Tall Tines. I will introduce you to people I know. Just look me up at a sale sometime.