What do you think our industry needs!!!!!!!!!

One preserve owner down south told me the biggest thing that they can an offer a hunter is "time".  


"Time" is the most valuable asset anyone has.  "Time" is something we all have equally.  We all have 365 days in a year, and 24 hours in a day.  But some people have more financial assets to make better use of, or improve the quality of how they spend their "time".  A CEO or high powered salesman, can't spend 10 - 20 days hunting a deer.  He may have a 3 day weekend to get the job done.  He can't afford to be away from his job that long, nor can his company allow him to be gone that long.  He is a financial asset to that company, and in his job, or the decisions he makes in that job, for that company, may be worth 100's of thousands of dollars,  if not millions to that company.   If preserves didn't offer that service, to these types of people, they would be lost to the hunting experience.  Preserves are expanding the hunting experience to these people.  Isn't that something we ALL should want, even the anti's, or purists ?  More people hunting, not less, isn't that good?    These type of people have tremendous political influence.  Don't we want them on our side when we will need to preserve ALL hunting against PETA, HSUS, Etc...  Because we all know, that battle is coming.


 


Gary

Yes Gary, you would think that all hunters would stand up for all forms and types of hunting but unfortunately many don't. I have heard rifle hunters ***** and complain about bow hunters because they feel too many deer are shot and not recovered leaving less for the rifle season. They also complain the bow hunters get to hunt during the rut while rifle season is in later Nov. (Speaking about WI here. Not sure how other states are run) I have also listened to people complain about bear hunters, fox hunters and coyote hunters. It is an unfortunate fact that society in general is very self centered. But it is true that all hunters should ban together to fight for all hunting, or soon there will be no hunting.

Your right Rodger. Worse yet, bow hunter complain about bow hunters. Ever get on a bow forum? In PA Crossbow, recurve and compound guys always are bickering about who's killing deer the "right" way, despite all ways being legal in our state. If your a recurve hunter, your better than the lazy compound guy. If your a crossbow guy, you don't even count, you might as well be using a rifle they say. No one is ever satisfied, the augments just go on and on. Instead of our PA guys being thankful for having limitless opportunities to hunt with our choice of the three in archery, it still seems many find it easier to complain about those not doing it their way, rather than just go hunt and be happy.

Antlershed923151400896250

Your right Rodger. Worse yet, bow hunter complain about bow hunters. Ever get on a bow forum? In PA Crossbow, recurve and compound guys always are bickering about who's killing deer the "right" way, despite all ways being legal in our state. If your a recurve hunter, your better than the lazy compound guy. If your a crossbow guy, you don't even count, you might as well be using a rifle they say. No one is ever satisfied, the augments just go on and on. Instead of our PA guys being thankful for having limitless opportunities to hunt with our choice of the three in archery, it still seems many find it easier to complain about those not doing it their way, rather than just go hunt and be happy.


You are so correct in your observation. I have heard the same dribble about bow choices. And again, they will ***** about fellow hunters until there is no more hunting. Their ignorance is only outweighed by their arrogance.

Thought this topic was about what this industry needs! What does bickering about guns or bows have to do with it.

virgil923181400900625



Thought this topic was about what this industry needs! What does bickering about guns or bows have to do with it.




 


Well Virgil, in post #119 you say, "We need to quit trying to get new people into the already flooded market. Makes me sick seeing seminars to get new people to raise deer. How many seminars do we see on how to bring new hunters in.

That's what I think the industry needs!"


And in post #120 you say, "The end market is and should be hunters not new breeders who end up loosing money while some pad their pockets."


 


I have to say I agree the industry doesn't need new growers. However what would be your plan? Complaining about the breeder markets or that "some pad their pockets" is not the solution either.


 


We need to provide a quality product to those who already come to our preserves. That was in part what the previous discussion was about. This over anything else seems to be the best advertising. Maybe preserves need to run a program that encourages current clients to bring a new hunter with them each year.


Is there a mailing list of people who have just completed a hunters safety course that the industry could buy and direct mailings to them might be an option.


Complaining about too many breeders is not the answer. We do need to increase hunters coming to our ranches. What would be your ideas Virgil?

I'm asking this question because I do not know .


Is there a national Association for hunting ranches or preserves ? If not would it be worth putting one together that could work on national advertising with the monies collected from dues and a list of the preserves that are members can be provided on the website for people to choose where to go hunt . It would be logical to have a national Association and and then to have a subchapter in each state. This might be a good idea since we are all in agreement pretty much that our national farmers Association does not need to handle promoting hunting. And since Pennsylvania is starting an association it looks evident that it is needed. My skin is thick I'm ready for the stones!

It seems to me that a lot of the preserves operate in a cutthroat manner towards other preserves . That's just my observation I may be wrong .

I don't feel that we need a new association. I feel that we need a new branch off of our existing association. We need to work together and not divide ourselves. We need a branch that advertises and promotes hunting ranches. As far as promoting new breeders by giving them seminars this is just plane ignorant. Why not have meetings to teach preserve owners how to advertise and sell hunts instead. We have more than enough people raising deer and more than enough deer. Now let's try to help get them sold in a way we all can benefit from. I have seen lots of new farmers spend lots of money getting in only to sell out cheap, loose money, flood the market, and then lower shooter prices while some pad their pockets by getting the new guys money. Its the hunters money we want and need.

Here in Pa some are off to a good start but not all are on board. They are moving forward even though they are receiving opposition. They are to be commended for their efforts.

People need to open their eyes. I have a conscience and hate to see people loose out. Bottom line is we need to sell more hunts for more farms to make it work.

Nadefa needs to back shows that bring in more hunters not shows that bring in more breeders to an already flooded market.

virgil923491400978659


I don't feel that we need a new association. I feel that we need a new branch off of our existing association. We need to work together and not divide ourselves. We need a branch that advertises and promotes hunting ranches. As far as promoting new breeders by giving them seminars this is just plane ignorant. Why not have meetings to teach preserve owners how to advertise and sell hunts instead. We have more than enough people raising deer and more than enough deer. Now let's try to help get them sold in a way we all can benefit from. I have seen lots of new farmers spend lots of money getting in only to sell out cheap, loose money, flood the market, and then lower shooter prices while some pad their pockets by getting the new guys money. Its the hunters money we want and need.

Here in Pa some are off to a good start but not all are on board. They are moving forward even though they are receiving opposition. They are to be commended for their efforts.

People need to open their eyes. I have a conscience and hate to see people loose out. Bottom line is we need to sell more hunts for more farms to make it work.

Nadefa needs to back shows that bring in more hunters not shows that bring in more breeders to an already flooded market.
I very sincerely am interested in what some ideas would be for increasing the number of hunters at ranches. What are some of your thoughts Virgil?

I suggest better quality experiences at existing preserves so as to maintain a happier client base.

Direct mailing to folks who have completed a recent hunter safety course.

Preserves implementing programs to bring first time preserve hunters along with existing clients.

Magazine, radio and TV spots to promote preserve hunting on a general basis. (Not ads directed towards specific preserves)

I like the Kieth Warren shows but wish they were directed more towards showing the benefits of preserve hunting and less as ads for breeder farms.

Word of mouth still by far is the best form of advertising. Happy clients are our bread and butter and our future.

I would be curious to know the success of advertisements placed in various media by preserves. In PA, the book of season dates, zone maps,hunting regs, etc. that comes with every hunting license has ads for some preserves in PA; I wonder if their efficacy is tracked? Are ads such as that a good "bang for the buck", considering the fact that every single licensed hunter in PA should see those ads. Maybe Andy and/or some of the crew working with him knows the answers to some of these questions, and they may be working a strategy based on the answers to them. Also, not all preserves have the same target clientele, so that plays into the strategy, as well.

Every preserve needs to have a marketing plan and target whatever group or area they feel is most receptive. Strategies are trial and error. You have to find what works for you. If a preserve can't market their hunts they are out of business. As preserves grow so will the need for breeders. The deer have to come from somewhere. We have a large breeding farm but still have bought deer the past few years. Either we didn't have enough of a size needed or had some hunters shooting several deer, running down our inventory. We don't always know until we are into the hunting season what we will need or when. A lot of variables in play. No one wants to get in the situation where they don't have the deer the hunters want. That is why we will continue to need more breeders as the preserve hunting grows. This year in Wisconsin a lot of the public land hunters are going to be seeing very few deer. That may push more of them to explore preserve hunting. We have seen a much greater acceptance of high fence hunting over the years, which only means it is growing.

Under Production and Farm management there was a topic posted about feed cost. I noticed there were over 900 views of the topic. Mulberry Rivers, in my opinion, ask a great question but still got crickets for a response. He ask " were preserves raising the price of their hunts to compensate producers for the rising cost of feed???". Chirp?chirp?chirpppppp? Sure preserves want more breeders. This enables them to buy stockers cheaper. I don't blame them for it. That is smart business but I do question them not following with their hunt prices the rising cost of raising stockers the producer has faced.This has been something the industry has needed to address and a question Jeremy that does need to be answered. The preserves may have faced some rising cost as well? If not, they could be biting the hand off that feeds them and exploiting the whole industry while trying to undercut and gain competitive advantage over the hunt prices of competing hunting ranches. Nadefa used to have a hunting ranch council. Is there still such a thing? What was its purpose?

Bell923881401038596



Under Production and Farm management there was a topic posted about feed cost. I noticed there were over 900 views of the topic. Mulberry Rivers, in my opinion, ask a great question but still got crickets for a response. He ask " were preserves raising the price of their hunts to compensate producers for the rising cost of feed???". Chirp?chirp?chirpppppp? Sure preserves want more breeders. This enables them to buy stockers cheaper. I don't blame them for it. That is smart business but I do question them not following with their hunt prices the rising cost of raising stockers the producer has faced.This has been something the industry has needed to address and a question Jeremy that does need to be answered. The preserves may have faced some rising cost as well? If not, they could be biting the hand off that feeds them and exploiting the whole industry while trying to undercut and gain competitive advantage over the hunt prices of competing hunting ranches. Nadefa used to have a hunting ranch council. Is there still such a thing? What was its purpose?




If farmers dont sell their deer for dirt cheap there would be no need for this discussion. I do agree 100% with you and now in our closed border state some things are going to hit the fan soon i believe.You have to be fair across the board and the farm and the ranch need to work as well oiled machine to insure the continued success of both. IMHO Anyways!!!!

This is a double edged sword, though. First of all, the costs of operating a preserve have to be increasing along with breeders costs (feed, insurance, power, fuel, etc.) in similar proportions. Having said that, is the preserve industry so well entrenched and are preserve owners so financially well-established that they can just start jacking prices without losing clientele? There is, as in any service industry, a tipping point price where the prospective client will just say "Nope, I'm doing it myself rather than pay that price." We are, ultimately, talking about recreational dollars people are spending.

Preserves have to keep their prices in line with the majority of the industry. You always have a few out there that are cutting prices to the bone. At some point you have to decide where the line is to make it worth doing. Preserve owners can't just arbitrarily decide to raise prices because they will be out of business. Clients become accustomed to paying a certain amount and may accept a small increase but anything more will send them to the bargain basement places.

Four Seasons Whitetails923931401045666



If farmers dont sell their deer for dirt cheap there would be no need for this discussion.....




 


Can I get an AMEN!!!


 


I don't know about anyone else, but I sure don't see the benefit of producing a product just to sell it at a loss or break even price. If I had no other option it would happen ONCE and I would quit what I was doing.

Amen Roger,

It's Sunday! All practiced up. Be long winded if your feelin it bro! Lol

I could be way off the mark here in my thoughts, but I have a theory on what took place with hunt ranch prices. At least from what I saw over the years here in WI.


At some point the number of growers (non hunt ranch owners) started growing at a pace faster than hunt ranches were adding new clients. Supply and demand dictated that prices being offered to growers started to decline slightly. However the real hit came when many growers decided that they would start their own hunt ranches. The theory was that they could guide a few hunts each year and make more off their bucks they were growing than what hunt ranch owners were offering to pay. I was in fact one of these people. I and another guy started our own hunt ranch. However I will firmly state that we fought a very hard fight to keep our prices in line with what was the average at the time we started offering hunts. It was NEVER our intention to gain our start-up clients by undercutting the existing hunt ranches. We didn't need to do this as we were prepared to start out slow and grow. If we sold only a couple of hunts the first year or two that would be fine.


However there were many of these start-up ranches that started around the same time as us that set out to find clients by undercutting the prices at existing ranches. I myself heard one guy justify it by saying he was, still making more than he would for his bucks if he sold them to another hunt ranch. What then happened was a constant and steady slide downward of prices as each old, and new ranch fought to keep their current clients and find new clients to fill the void of those lost to cheaper places.


Suddenly there became a negative supply and demand issue between hunters looking for hunts and hunt ranches offering hunts. That negative issue further decreased the prices of hunts.


I recall Bill, my partner in the hunt ranch telling me, "We can't keep our prices at $20k for a 200" buck because guys are telling me they can get them cheaper at........" ( I will leave out the names of these cheaper ranches as that is no longer important )


Soon we were dealing with clients showing us other ranches that were selling 200" hunts for $5k and even as low as $4500 each!!! We refused to lower our prices to that point and finally stood our ground.


I will make note that these start-up ranches that come online and were slashing prices were of all sizes. Big and small, fancy and basic. At some point competing with these places became impossible and we were left to just accept that we would lose some and keep others. We were fortunate because we kept some quality clients based on the fact that we provided a real product that they would in fact get an opportunity at. Unlike some places that said they had big deer and they didn't and tried to undersell the hunter a small buck. Also Bill and Jon do a fantastic job of entertaining the clients. Many have become friends as a result.


So if I did a good enough job of explaining myself I hope it will make sense to some of you.

Roger,

I appreciate your thoughts. That is the first time I have heard someone discuss that side of things. It's kind of what I thought. You put the meat and potatoes out there and I understand where you are coming from. I edited that in my last post about being long winded. I was walking to the house from the deer pen reading from my fancy phone. I saw a pretty long paragraph next. Hope you saw the humor in the edit.

Does Nadefa still have a preserve council? Thought I remembered Dave Griffith heading up this committee several years ago.