What do you think our industry needs!!!!!!!!!

Gary is spot on. Our Game Fish & Parks won't issue anymore buck tags for our state because if they do, the leftover tags will be able to be bought by non-residents and this will create "commercial" hunting. They issue just enough to fill the number of resident applications. I winter hundreds of junk bucks that none of my hunters will shoot so they get left to do the breeding and every year the 4x4 genetics get passed. Luckily our rifle season isn't until the end of the rut so some of the better older bucks do get some breeding done. They have issued so many unlimited doe licenses to keep the Wildlife Federation people happy having something to shoot to the point of wiping out the deer on all the public land and the places farmers want them shot because of the crop damage. Now the deer that are left are imprinted to stay in the places with little to no pressure like mine and the other places that manage for trophys. Now our DNR department admits the deer numbers are way down, they blame EHD, NOT OVER DOE HARVEST. They are going to issue 50% less antlerless tags this coming year and now act like they are the hero for saving the deer population when in fact they are the ones who screwed it up to begin with. It's a fact that at  least half of the antlerless deer shot are button bucks or older bucks that have shed so the "doe" license does nothing to help the buck population. Most farmers wouldn't mind having deer around if they could sell a few hunts to pay for the damage they cause. Like I've always said, If you opened up your preserve to these people for free, they'd run each other over trying to get thru your gate. I'm also pretty sure the first bucks shot would be your 300 inchers, not your clean 180's.

Of course you don't see the potential 300 inch bucks, they have been shot out over the last 100 years at a young age before they got mature enough to breed. If you don't think god meant for deer to be big non-typicals, you need to look at the Boone & Crockett non-typical category. The reason bucks in the south east don't get big(mostly) is because they've had such liberal buck limits over the years that the worst bucks are the only ones left to breed with the late rut, totally backward genetic manipulation over the years like Gary stated. 

If wild bucks antlers were covered with enough defensive tines( trash) no buck would ever win a fight. No buck would lose an eye or no lung would ever be punctured. After pushing each other around as soon as one buck got his wind back enough to mount a doe,the other buck,because he wasn't wounded would probably knock him off her back. Until a big bodied thick massed clean 4 by 4 showed up and sent them on their way to ejaculate from a distance and watch him breed the doe. This is the reason that even if we stocked our 300& 400" nontypical genetics in the wild they would not thrive. The narrow thick massed long tined 4 by 4 will win every fight and therefore does the majority of the breeding in the wild. This is why the whitetail is naturally a 4 by 4. The perfect amount of tine to defend as well as fight and dominate. Put a big heavy mass 4 by 4 in with your 400" inch buck in the breeder pen and he will kill him within minutes. You will be able to then visualize why God made the 4 by 4 to dominate. We protect these non typical 400 &500" deer in our breeding pens. They wouldn't make it in the wild." Survival of the fittest." I'm not going to start raising thick narrow 4by's but this knowledge is what spawned my thoughts and provoked my original post on this topic. Lol

This industry has not done itself any favors by producing bucks that cannot hold their heads up and bucks that look like freak shows. There are some beautiful nontypical's that don't look like freak shows and are balanced. The problem for me in breeding for one is that there is a lot of things that lay inbetween. I know if I Breed for typical's they are going to be able to hold their heads up and I won't usually have to cut them off before August except for in emergency situations. For the most part when we talk about typical and nontypical we are speaking two different languages from the breeding market and those that are in the wild. Most deer in the wild that are classified as nontypical still have a good frame and don't look like there's a blob on their head . To each his own in what they want to raise . Jmho

If every hunter that comes to our ranches to hunt only wanted clean typ deer with no extras we would not be in business long. With todays bloodlines its very tough to make a clean..and i mean a clean deer. No stickers..nothing around the bases. just G1,2,3,4,5. nd then to try and make alot of them if ya did make one? almost impossible!

verdana, geneva, I try and raise both typical and non-typical because there is a market for both (at least in my part of the world)... I can't understand the thinking of calling other peoples bucks "freaks shows" and " grossly nontypical genetics", "artificial looking", what good can this possibly do for the good of our industry. That is the kind of talk that the writers of some of the recent non-favorable newspaper articles have been using, didn't like it then and don't like it now... Just don't understand why this is coming from our own people... Jmho

"Our" I have grown some myself and I'll be growing some more. I appreciate this ensightful discussion and I am always learning. About 10% of my herd is non-typical. I have grown a few nontypicals here on our farm that have a look I'm not so proud of. I don't think they are the best thing for our industry to further pursue. I certainly could be wrong. I don't mean to be offensive. I should have used a better choice of words and been more tactful. Appreciate your comments I edited the words you pointed out of my post.

Sorry and thanks

Barry,

One only has to look at video of farmed Whitetail on you YouTube and you can see why our industry is so scrutinized . When people post video of bucks that can't even hold up their heads for the world to see. How do you think we are going to be looked at as farmers? We are a steward of the animal. If that was what I was introduced to before we got in the Whitetail business we would not be here. If I thought I could raise good balanced nontypical's I would, maybe I'm wrong but I think it's a Crap shoot. And if you can that's great and I'm all with you and share with me how I can do that.

Big balanced non typicals will occur and are natural variations that WILL happen even while we pursue monster typical breedings

We can all raise whatever style deer we want, but it comes down to what will sell, not what we like. We raise both typical and nontypical because that is what our hunters want. Most hunters have never even seen a 200" deer and have no idea what something bigger looks like until they hunt with us.


This year Wisconsin had a harsh winter and in some areas they said 40% of last year's fawns died. This is going to have a big impact on the public hunting season. The DNR refused to allow people to feed the deer during the winter, claiming they would only harm them and feed them the wrong things. I guess education isn't possible. On top of that probably 75% of deer in some parts of the state that are shot are 1-1/2 year olds. All in all, these are the type of things that promote our industry.

Wild Rivers,

You hit the nail on the head when you said" it boils down to what will sell" I know people who couldnt sell several of their bucks last year. They were ---- nontypical. People have mortgaged against their homes to buy into non typical lines which haven't held their value and many of them have sold out and left the deer business. They believe the industry is weak because they had to sell their ----nontypical breeding stock & shooters for pennies on the dollar. The deer business in fact has been very consistent for me. I sold my typical shooters last year for more than I ever have before. Yes we should all be able to raise whatever kind of deer we like but it is disturbing to see people give up and leave the industry when I believe they were simply raising a product they almost couldn't get rid of. Is this what our industry needs?

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Wild Rivers,

You hit the nail on the head when you said" it boils down to what will sell" I know people who couldnt sell several of their bucks last year. They were ---- nontypical. People have mortgaged against their homes to buy into non typical lines which haven't held their value and many of them have sold out and left the deer business. They believe the industry is weak because they had to sell their ----nontypical breeding stock & shooters for pennies on the dollar. The deer business in fact has been very consistent for me. I sold my typical shooters last year for more than I ever have before. Yes we should all be able to raise whatever kind of deer we like but it is disturbing to see people give up and leave the industry when I believe they were simply raising a product they almost couldn't get rid of. Is this what our industry needs?




No disrespect but i would like to see the deer that could not sell. If they were 13 inches inside with bulbs on their head then i could see but if thats the case i would like to see how they bred to make that deer. Just seems kinda out there to have people close down because one year they could not sell their bucks. They must have not been to vested from the start not to just change up their breedings and move on. We all get some bucks sometimes that we kinda wonder how it came about but it does not seem to happen alot. To farmers i know anyways!

I asked my hunting ranch what he is looking for and he said 300 inches plus. He went on to say width and tine length are important but they have too be big. So every ranch has a different demand to fill.

A lot of it has to do with the type of clients your preserve is catering to. Some preserves sell 140-170 bucks and some with big money clients only want to shoot bucks above 200 inches. If you only have enough time and animals to shoot in a season I'd rather have the clients who want to shoot a $8-$20,000 deer rather then deal with a bunch of tight wads who only want to pay for a 150 for $3,500. I've been outfitting for 15 years and I can tell you, The cheap skates are not worth dealing with, you can give them the best hunt of a lifetime and they still find something to whine about and are poor guide tippers. I've found over the years that people who can afford to go on a paid hunt are a heck of a lot easier to deal with then someone who doesn't have enough money in the first place but maxed out the credit card to go anyways. If every whitetail was a 4x4 or 5x5 it would be pretty boring. That's the reason exotics don't have many repeat clients, one buck looks about exactly like the next one, boring.

Well most preserves take whatever hunters they can get. We have a variety of hunters from low end to high.


You are right about the same being boring, we think that is why nontypicals are important because they offer variety. Hunters will often say they've never seen anything like that before and often that is why they want it.


As for deer not selling, maybe they were asking too much or maybe the deer was really unbalanced. Nontypicals sell as long as they have a balanced look, not too lopsided. In that case it is not about score.

Whitetails truly are one of the best creatures to hunt for unique characteristics. Most other animals look pretty much the same. Seriously, what is the difference between a "trophy" turkey and a non trophy one? Maybe an inch or two of beard. Antelope is the same thing. Not a big difference between a trophy and a small one. Bears? Again not much difference in skull sizes really. I think elk are really cool but again they really don't look a ton different from one to the next. Whitetails have such unique differences and that is why they are so sought after.


Everyone has their own opinion as to what a whitetail should look like. If someone wants a typical in the 140"-170" range I frankly don't see why they don't just hunt in the wild. Except for a few BIG reasons, and antlers are not always it. Land access, free time, safety while hunting, personal skill levels to name a few.


Not a lot of people can own the acreage needed to go hunting. If they don't own and can't find a place to lease then they are stuck hunting public lands. I tried that public land stuff once many years ago when a friend wanted to try it. It was like a war zone with bullets flying everywhere. Not very safe or enjoyable on public lands. Many folks love hunting but simply don't have the free time for scouting, maintaining food plots or setting up stands. They work long hours at demanding jobs and are raising a family as well. They take 3-5 days per year and get away from it all for some R&R and want to see and shoot something nice. Our industry provides that opportunity. I have no doubt that the low dollar hunters can be penny pinchers, and the profit margin on those low dollar hunts of course sucks. But it is important to remember that not everyone has the financial means to shoot $6,000 or $8,000 plus dollar deer. But they might have friends who can afford it or they might afford it someday themselves. Also EVERY single client is important to our industry. Every one of them becomes a spokes person for what we provide. Someday they might be asked to vote on an issue important to us. It is important that every client walks away happy from their experience. Nothing ticks me off more than to hear stories of how a guy was told he could shoot this or that and then he was essentially ripped off by a poorly run ranch. Sure it is good to get their business, but we don't want folks getting a bad experience and not being the industries ally.


I for one am glad that we don't all raise the same kind of bucks. The industry NEEDS deer that are clean, trashy, small and big and everything in between. I personally like a big mainframe that is typical but then has some kickers up high and some flyers going out. I like a balanced rack.


I hate stickers down low around the bases and trashy antlers, and I don't like clean typicals either. But I am glad folks raise them and I appreciate the industry can supply them to the hunters who want them.


I do find it disappointing when I hear growers cutting down on "ugly deer" or "trashy" deer. It is that same kind of small minded thinking that causes some hunters to condemn our industry. Those folks feel that what we provide isn't hunting. They feel so strongly about it that they become our adversaries in the fight to remain open for business.


I don't think that hunters who don't hunt with us and don't like what we provide to others are that way because they think we grow "freak" deer. They instead don't like our industry because they either, 1. Don't want to pay for hunting. Or, 2 They are what I call purists. Not a single hunter from group 1 or 2 would pass up the shot at a "freak" looking buck if it came walking past them in the wild. And if group 1 was given a week free inside our preserves they would do it in a heartbeat.


To me that is it. Those are the hunters who fight against us. They simply don't want to pay or they are purists.


I don't think we will ever change all their minds either. What we can do is provide a quality service to those who are willing to pay and to those who are not purists who think hunting can only be done a specific way, place and time. The more folks we can educate to our services the more opportunity we have for gaining an ally.

Roger,

Thanks for again speaking your mind. A critical opinion has many times been helpful to me. I believe that I may indeed have sort of a purist opinion of the whitetail but I am not one of those who cannot be helped. There are those who the only taste they have is in their mouth. It would probably behoove me to zip mine before I convince a few folks to my line of thinking. Then I probably won't get as much for my typical deer.

There is a difference between having a critical opinion and criticizing someone.

Thanks

Roger,If I said my hunts were free they would be lined up to hunt.

All boils down to what this industry needs. Here is my list less deer farmers more hunters and a variety of deer.

I like big framed typicals but agree we do need all sorts cause all people like different things. To each his own! However until we get more hunters many people will loose money. We need to quit trying to get new people into the already flooded market. Makes me sick seeing seminars to get new people to raise deer. How many seminars do we see on how to bring new hunters in.

That's what I think the industry needs!

The end market is and should be hunters not new breeders who end up loosing money while some pad their pockets.