Without hunters we all starve! Please comment

WillPenn Whitetails said:

Russ Jr. has been in TX with many other farmers over the past few days for the All Amercian North/South sale. All I'll say is just because nothing has been posted on a website doesn't mean that nothing is being done. Sometimes I think we should revert back to just picking up the phone and making a call if there are questions before making assumptions... the internet is a funny thing where perception is not always reality because not everyone is on the computer every single day. Just a thought... who's line is that anyway? Hope they don't mind me using it

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Michael,

Never did i say Russ was not doing anything towards this campaign.....you are right about the internet being a funny thing where perception is not always reality....your words can also be read wrong and therefore taken the wrong way. which i believe you did with my post.... I merely said it would be nice for an update....because without it people WILL PERCEVE that nothing is being done and we don't want that to happen......we need to keep everyone on board with this....i realize Russ as well as many of us are busy with our everyday lives and this is just one issue of many we all have to deal with.....but we need to keep the communication going thats all!

Again, regarding the Advertising campaign........folks we are in this together whether we like it or not.......I feel there have been a lot of good points brought up regarding the preserves and raising their own stockers and about the Deer farmers needing some type of reassurance that when we help to fund this Marketing campaign it is not going to come back to haunt us if all the preserves start to raise their own animals. Personally, I don't see how you ever would get a guarantee like that.......I do think Wisdom had some good points that should the bookings increase then some preserves will focus on selling hunts rather than raising deer....but i am not gullable enough to believe that a lot of preserves will not continue to raise their own deer as Don H. said it's alot eaiser to open a gate and chase your own farm raised bucks into your preserve than to purchase the animals from different farms and then worry about them being shipped and all the other problems that could go along with that. However, there will always be many preserves out there that don't want the headache of raising their own stockers and i do feel that it will be a significant amout. We need to find away to pull together and trust one another (yeah i know that is easier said than done....what ashame it has to be that way)......but think about it....we have a preserve market and a breeder market....why would it benefit either side to want the other to be eliminated....we need each other.....the preserves need the stockers (atleast the ones that don't raise their own) and the ones that do both need to be able to sell their semen and their high dollar does.......And these are sold mostly to the breeders........This market has been working well for sometime now.....why change things? Did you ever hear the saying "If it ain't broke.....DON'T FIX IT!" Well the industry isn't broke and WE are the only ones that can break it.......lets focus on how we can Keep it rolling... before it truly is broken an then it might be to late.

I want what is best for everyone....I can truly say this from my heart.....I am not in this for ME.....and if anyone is........THEY should not be apart of the driving force who will be heading up the Marketing campaign.......Again, in order for this to work....the Board that is put together to run the marketing campaign can NOT be hand picked by any one person or persons....they should be voted for (BY US...THE FARMERS AND PRESERVE OWNERS) and should be a well rounded mix of both Deer Farmers and Preserve Owners........This NEEDS to be the first step! Any suggestion on how we would go about getting this Board up and going???

A quick comment here. The end customer/consumer is the hunter willing to take large deer from a place that needs to buy deer. Sounds like a preserve to me or at least a high fenced operation. In general, the numbers favor the preserve that can grow their own deer. Feed is pretty low, so if they can produce good salable shooter bucks for their business, then likely their fixed costs for deer become feed. Pretty inexpensive.



Compare to elk. I can get around $6000 for a 350-390 class elk. But for me to grow one takes a few years, 5 or so, and feed is really expensive. Deer are way cheaper. The only way that I can run high quality deer is to invest in all aspects of the operation, lodging, guides, cooks, and deer. And i need numbers to be able to sell enough deer to at least pay for all of that, plus a lease or my own land, and live off the difference. I think that we need way more hunters as it takes very little land and way less money to actually get started raising deer compared to the few million it takes to own and operate a 2000 acres hunting property. Heck, the fence can run several hundred thousand. From a preserve owners perspective, I am happy to buy deer if I have the hunters to justify the expenditures. And we suffer a lot of losses from deer dying, feed, poaching, predators, etc... I have to generate at least $200,000 in hunting in 9 weeks to be able to make around $50k in margins before I pay my lease, or land costs, and marketing costs. Not pretty. My take, we need more hunters or the over supply of deer will reduce their value significantly.



We need more consumers in the game, and that means more hunters. The preserves are the first line of attack here. Much like the Almond farmers have grown their consumer base to over 10x what it used to be, we could use the same kind of help here. Or as you state later, the producers and raisers of deer will go out of business, and the preserve owners will use that land for other more profitable purposes.

Hardpan

Part 1

Let me be clear on this. None of the bigger hunting ranches can raise enough shooters to meet their needs. NONE. As the numbers of hunters increases past a point the hunting ranches will decree what they produce. For the last two years I have been decreasing. Last year we sold 50+ bred does and shot another ten because I did not want to take advantage of another breeder. The reason we decreased our breeding herd is, I foreseen there were going to be a lot of shooters for sale and I wanted to position myself to purchase them. As it turned out it was a smarted move than I anticipated. Not only are there a lot of shooters as I anticipated but they are $100 to $5000 cheaper.

I love raising deer and will always raise some. At this time and for the next several years I can not raise deer as cheap as I can buy them. Sure it is easier to turn 20 to 50 shooters out of a pen. But you breeders know how much work is involved in breeding, raising, feeding, doctoring, building new pens and morning the loses for three to four years until shooters are sellable. WHY would any hunting ranch owner who has an unlimited number of hunters continue to raise more shooters when they can grab their dart gun, hook to their trailer and in a weeks time haul those 20 to 50 shooters home. Why would they want to invest four years raising shooters when they can purchase the end product in one week. Purchase is the key word here. If hunting ranches can purchase bucks at a price they cam make money and they have the hunters they will buy every shooter that can be produced. Goes back to supply and demand.

I am going to church now.



Perhaps later today I will have a chance to write

Part 2 Why hunting ranches started raising so many of there shooters



Have a blessed Sunday and praise the Lord

I agree that in todays market it is sometimes cheaper to buy bucks than raise them, that wasnt always the case. There is one operation with reportedly 800 does; how many shooter bucks is this place going to buy? They should have at least 600 shooter bucks of their own every year. I certainly understand preserves raising their own bucks and also buying bucks as cheap as they can. That is only good business and is the same philosophy that any smart business owner would use. The answer to our current dilema is a lot more complex than many realize. One issue to start with is the few preserves who offer cut-rate prices on their hunts. This has a serious negative impact across the entire industry for deer farmers and preserve owners alike. THAT should be the first issue addressed as it will negatively effect the price that everyone gets for their product. When the wal-marts of preserves come along with high-volume and low prices a lot of others are put out of business.

Wisdom said:

Apparently you have been hurt and burnt before.

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Actually Wisdom - I have been in the trenches long enough to earn my battle wounds and in turn learned to keep my head and thinking below the surface. So yes, this would be an accurate assumption.

Wisdom said:

I know at this time most hunting ranch owners are raising and producing as many shooters as they will ever be able to raise. Their breed pens are as full as every one else’s.

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I am just playing the "devil's advocate" here. I can clearly see the reason for the sudden push to increase hunting numbers on the preserves. The preserves need to clean out their stock before they can begin to purchase stock from the deer farmers. So if I understand this correctly, the deer breeders need to jump on-board and help the preserves sell the "home grown" hunting stock in hopes that it opens a bigger shooter market for them to sell to. This makes perfect sense if I were a preserve owner. I am not being mean with this statement, just clearly stating what I comprehend from the writing on the wall.

Wisdom said:

If an advertising push for hunters is successful and brings hunters to the ranches in numbers. That will stimulate the breeding industry like we have never seen before. Could you imagine if a Ranch owner had unlimited hunters their focus would be on killing deer and happy hunters. Not raising more bucks. If they could not get enough bucks for the hunters they are booking the price would go up and also the percentage they pay for shooters would go up. Most hunting ranches would not have to raise a deer if they had enough hunters and enough breeders to supply the bucks. Do the math. If a ranch is shooting 100 deer a year. And can up that to shooting 200 bucks a year. Most ranches would actually down size their herds. Why would they want to raise bucks and have all the work and feed bills when there is an unlimited supply or hunters and unlimited supply of bucks.

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Again, this is great ideology on the surface, IMHO. On the other hand, what guarantee can the preserves offer to the deer farmers in regards to not increasing the number of deer they produce for hunting?



I don't feel this is a trick question. I feel it is a question of compromising. Are the preserves willing to compromise by guaranteeing they will not increase their own production numbers in lue of promotional support from the deer farmers? Would the preserves be willing to "donate" (to the promotional fund) fair market value on any of their own animals they harvest over a set quota?

Wisdom said:

If the breeders help with the advertising hunting ranches can do what they do best, hunt and sell your bucks and not spend time to advertise your bucks by themselves. The hunting ranches have spent millions of dollars advertising to sell the breeders shooters, perhaps it’s time the breeders pitch in to help sell their own.

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I can agree with this to a certain point. But let's not forget about all the breeders who bought high dollar genetics from the preserves, which helped contribute money to build bigger and better hunting preserves and also contributed to the millions of dollar spent on marketing - in most cases. What about all of the deer the deer farmers have sold the preserves at a third or quarter of the price of the hunt? It really is and has been a two way street under the surface.

Wisdom said:

It is not a two edged sward. Still comes down to supply and demand. Want to get rid of your shooters bring hunters to the ranches.

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Again, I am assuming you mean "after" the shooters that the preserves raised are shot, then we as breeders would be able to get rid of ours. There doesn't seem to be much assurance of a compromise in that statement. Keep in mind, I am just playing the devil's advocate as I too want to make this work and help the industry grow - FOR EVERYONE!

Wisdom said:

Here is where the two edged sward comes in. What if the hunting ranches can not get hunters and in an effort to sell their breeding stock would advertise “if you purchase our breeding stock we will in return guarantee to purchase your shooters” Now that is scary. Hunting ranches now could control the hunting and possibly the breeding as well.

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Now this statement is just flat out insulting. This same scenario happened to me five years ago when I called a larger preserve in the Bedford area and was told that they buy from the people who had purchased breeding stock from them. "Please call back later and maybe we will be looking for more shooters." Reflecting back to the opening quote in this post - yea..... let's just say I learned from the experience.



With this scenario already in play, this is why I am nervous about promoting preserves without stipulations or guarantees being put in place to help protect the deer farmers from the preserves totally monopolizing the deer industry. Again, I learned from my battle wounds and it has made me much wiser... I can think of only one other room full of people that smile, talk to you and tell you what you want to hear and they are the politicians ... I don't trust them either!!

Wisdom said:

I suggest we all work together and forget about the what ifs and get hunters who bring new money into this industry.

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I think it only makes good business sense to cover the "what if's". If we are approaching the situation in a business manner then what is wrong with detailing and questioning both sides of a coalition effort? Black and White and discussions simply makes good business and good friends as well as letting everyone know where they stand.









To get the ball rolling a conference call number has been setup for those that would like to use it in order to hold some group talks. Maybe this will help get this coalition effort moving forward and underway.



Free Conference Call

Conference Dial-in Number: (712) 451-6100

Host Access Code: 138385*

Participant Access Code: 138385#







And just for the record, I am not arguing.... I am negotiating with the preserves as a deer farmer..... When these questions are answered and the deer farmers concerns are addressed, then I will help the preserves in anyway that I possibly can.









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John by your comment sounds like I have stepped on your toes. I am not the enemy here.

I refuse to lower myself and this forum for the sake of winning an argument. So at this point I ask your forgiveness if I have offended you.

I have spent a lot of time on this forum to help new breeders in the industry to understand what is going on and to help with suggestions to keep this industry going strong.

I have nothing to gain by even being on this forum, but I hope to share my experiences and wisdom to help others.

I ask you now to search your heart for you said it yourself: perhaps I am playing the devils advocate

Wisdom said:

John by your comment sounds like I have stepped on your toes. I am not the enemy here.

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Wisdom,

I never said you were the enemy, in fact I have always looked up to you and respected you. I am just asking if the preserves are willing to compromise by agreeing to not increase the number of deer they already produce?



That's it, nothing more.





I am simply negotiating as a deer farmer and looking out for best interests of that group. Trust me, I am not arguing or picking a fight.



I will ask again, would the preserves be willing to guarantee they would not increase the number of deer they produce in lue of monetary support from the deer breeders? You know, if the deer breeders are going to pitch in and virtually eliminate the need for the preserves to market hunts, then the cost of advertising the preserves would need to pay for would be greatly reduced, if the deer farmers are paying the bulk of it. This would mean less overhead for the preserves.



How would this saved money (from the preserves overhead) reflect on shooter prices that would be paid to the deer farmers?



I am not trying to be mean - I just see all the present ideas of promoting the preserves as being one sided thus far and with virtually no security being offered to the farmers for their contributions and efforts. I do see the opportunity of increasing the number of hunters being attainable, but what would or could be put in place to insure the preserves do not produce more of their own deer to fill the increased demand?





I feel we have the right to know these answers before we dive in. You being a preserve owner is why I was directing the questions to you. I am not trying to undercut your efforts or your integrity. I just want to know what is involved with the widget I am buying and if it comes with a guarantee or not.



That is all and nothing more. I too feel something needs done and I am willing to give it 110% as long as it is a fair and balanced plan.









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I typed these words two or three weeks ago;



To all those reading this forum I must apologize for using a pen name. I chose a pen name because of some of the negativity and finger pointing on the forums between some breeders and hunting ranches. My focus is on the industry and it's problems and not who I am or what I do. I chose a pen name so people would judge the content of what is typed and not who I am or what I do. My hopes were that people would focus on the message and not the messenger.

Knowledge is knowing all things, understanding is putting knowledge together to make sense. Wisdom is applying it for the benefit of all. As I was praying for a pen name instantly the thought came; Wisdom. Do you know that is how God speaks to us all threw our thoughts and also our feelings and emotions.

Does it matter if I am one of the big guys in the breeding industry or have ten hunting ranches. Or does it make any difference if I am a hobby farmer with ten deer in my back yard.

All that matters is that my thoughts, words and actions have supported this industry from the biggest breeder to the smallest for almost two decades.

My love and passion for deer and the industry is only second compared to the wonderful people I have met on this journey.

The deer industry has a major battle on its hands for the next three to five years. If we do nothing the deer breeding market will collapse like the twin towers on 9/11. The solution is getting more hunters to the ranches and shooting the surplus of bucks and does that are choking our pens and choking our dreams. Until this happens fellow deer farmers your and my friends are going to be struggling with what to do with surplus does, fawns and shooter bucks while trying to pay feed bills.

Am I crying the sky is falling “Yes I am”. Can it be avoided no. But we can reduce the effects and casualties if we act now. Threw this action I see a stronger brighter future for the deer industry. A future that will last because we have hunters on our side and some hunting frequently behind high fence.



I feel in reality we are ahead of our time but threw hard work and prayer we can reline what is not in season and bring it in season as if it were.



Know that I did not get on this forum to make friends or war but to speak the truth.

I have donated tens of thousands of dollars to organize and advertise this industry from state to national level. I and others have helped fight battles and carry the flag that few people will ever know to help this industry.

At this time if my words typed have not helped in this forum and are causing a problems I will step aside.



Love you all, you to John

Gods blessings

Andy Foor of the Wilderness

When Russ JR started this thread I was relieved to think that we might all finally get in the same boat and see the big picture of what the future might hold in the deer business. I have sit around and tried to think of a job that could be more fun. The deer business (breeders/ hunting preserves) is unique in that we have an unbelievable demand for the product we produce. Hunters wait all year to shoot that buck they have been thinking about since they quit hunting the previous year.



I have seen exotic livestock markets dry up one after another realizing that this could one day happen to us. However, whitetail deer are in high demand. The most sought after of all big game species today. The only thing that will destroy our business is us. If stick together and promote the IDEA of hunting inside a high fence the future will be bright. The more people that accept the idea the more support we will have when we have to fight to keep hunting. As the number of hunters grow the more the industry will grow and we are more powerful in numbers.



Don is right about supply and demand, however we can raise the demand without downsizing the industry. We have to recruit new clients to shoot the deer we grow. We have to educate more hunters about what hunting preserves are all about. So hopefully everyone will jump on board because I am planning on the deer business being around for a long time.

Hi John, Wisdom,

I read these remarks with great interest, Both of you have my respect. Then, I started thinking like a venture capitalist. IE: Would I invest money in a hunting or a farming operation? Here are some thoughts:

1) Hunting: Only if I can get very high dollar hunters. Or, leasing is a better option. So, that means competing with high quality animals, lodging, land etc...

2) Farming: Only if I can sell deer for at least 3x what I have into them. I got to the 3x number as the fixed prices like feed are not that bad, but the variable costs required to improve the breed can be outrageous.



One idea is simply to work together. IE: as a hunting ranch, I agree to take so many animals a year at a fixed price and quality. As a breeder, you help me with decent pricing, and maybe things to help me sell like high quality sheds... the hunting ranch will not shoot all of their deer in any year, unless it is way easy. and will need to have 20-35% extra stock on hand. I worked a deal something like this, but not in writing, with an elk farmer, and it worked out ok. I took 5 animals, at a good price, but not a great one. Got better than expected elk, and some very happy hunters that gave be the basis for a real business. Of course, the breeder needed more hunting ranches that just mine, but I bought all of my elk from him. Pricing was about 1/2 the discounted rate that I charged my hunters. What made it work was that I could not raise the elk cheaper that I could buy them due to feed. Deer eat less, and frankly, I am not sure how sustainable the business is if the pricing is way higher than then cost of raising them.



Please do not misunderstand. I really feel for the deer raiser. The business is tough, and you do not have control over the final consumer or price. Personally, I would be happy to let a breeder put deer on my ranch, and collect 80% of the profit after paying to all of the costs. But, I am afraid that those numbers are too low. If any of you are in Texas, or can ship here, let me know if you want to work some sort of deal along these lines. Takes a lot of trust and verification. But, it could be an answer.

Hardpan

just so you understand, the breeder would get the 80%.

Hardpan

Hardpan said:

Hi John, Wisdom,

I read these remarks with great interest, Both of you have my respect. Then, I started thinking like a venture capitalist. IE: Would I invest money in a hunting or a farming operation? Here are some thoughts:

1) Hunting: Only if I can get very high dollar hunters. Or, leasing is a better option. So, that means competing with high quality animals, lodging, land etc...

2) Farming: Only if I can sell deer for at least 3x what I have into them. I got to the 3x number as the fixed prices like feed are not that bad, but the variable costs required to improve the breed can be outrageous.



One idea is simply to work together. IE: as a hunting ranch, I agree to take so many animals a year at a fixed price and quality. As a breeder, you help me with decent pricing, and maybe things to help me sell like high quality sheds... the hunting ranch will not shoot all of their deer in any year, unless it is way easy. and will need to have 20-35% extra stock on hand. I worked a deal something like this, but not in writing, with an elk farmer, and it worked out ok. I took 5 animals, at a good price, but not a great one. Got better than expected elk, and some very happy hunters that gave be the basis for a real business. Of course, the breeder needed more hunting ranches that just mine, but I bought all of my elk from him. Pricing was about 1/2 the discounted rate that I charged my hunters. What made it work was that I could not raise the elk cheaper that I could buy them due to feed. Deer eat less, and frankly, I am not sure how sustainable the business is if the pricing is way higher than then cost of raising them.



Please do not misunderstand. I really feel for the deer raiser. The business is tough, and you do not have control over the final consumer or price. Personally, I would be happy to let a breeder put deer on my ranch, and collect 80% of the profit after paying to all of the costs. But, I am afraid that those numbers are too low. If any of you are in Texas, or can ship here, let me know if you want to work some sort of deal along these lines. Takes a lot of trust and verification. But, it could be an answer.

Hardpan

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Thank You Hardpan..

Now this is negotiating and a willingness to compromise and share a portion of the risk - I like that.



As a deer farmer I pretty much have a "cost to produce" established for each animal I raise, regardless of antler size. I would assume preserves share a similar "cost to harvest" regardless of the antler size.



For example sake, lets formulate a costing model based on a 3 year old 170" deer. I am only considering the basic expenditures that go into raising deer to harvest age.



1.) Feed - 4 lb average consumption per day = 4380 lbs. Cost $1000+/-

2.) Meds - Wormers and other preventative meds. = $200



This is the basics of what it takes to rise a deer to three years old. At a minimum the break even point is $1,200. I haven't taken into consideration semen purchases or doe purchases. I am simply profiling costs a fellow that only raises deer for the shooter market would incur. I have also not included any fencing, buildings or other assets as they can be depreciated over a period of five years. I am simply covering the basics on a per deer basis.





I would be anxious to see what kind of basic cost break down is involved with the "cost of harvest" the preserves experience while selling a 170" shooter. Maybe we can compare apples to apples and work together to formulate an effective plan and possibly find areas that we can stream line or raise money from. If we are planning to work together, then the cards need to be laid on the table so we can look at the whole process and work through it from start to finish.







Regards,

John

What you also need to account for is loss. Just because you start with say 50 yearling bucks you may not have that many at age 3 - yet you may have fed them for one or two or three years. That is part of the cost of doing the deer business as well. Also the preserve owner has a certain amount of loss in his preserve - another cost of doing business.

Hardpan said:

just so you understand, the breeder would get the 80%.

Hardpan

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Hardpan

I wished you lived closer to me, I would gladly sell you all my shooter bucks for 80%. In fact I would rent you my lodge and hunting ranch to hunt them in.

Lets try to get something started guys........we can bicker and bicker and make great points on both sides......one thing we are all agreeing about is something needs to be done........We need get a Board together....and I'll say it again...it needs to be represented form all those involved.....Preserve owners, Deer farmers and the Amish....this Board then needs to come up with a fair plan that will work for everyone.....we then need to get this thing rollin.........like Wisdom said in a previuos post......we wait and then we will be behind another year.....There are a lot of us out there that can't afford another year!! Lets focus on the next step guys.....Everyone has brought up great pionts and they all need to be addressed by the Board otherwise we will never get this thing up and off the ground!!

Is it possible to start with nominations for board members for this campaign through this forum? are there any volunteers for a board member position. Myabe nadefa should send out ballots to elect the board members. I agree with Dennis, this a board should be put together asap so we can get the ball rolling with all the great ideas that have put talked about in this forum.

Both John and Wisdom......I should have used the word "Debate" instead of "bicker" in my last post it would have came across much better....sorry guys!!

John

Know that 100% of my advertising dollars is for targeting more hunters, 0% is to sell breeding stock

I can do no more I am giving 100%



You are demanding guarantees. After a lot of thought I do have a guarantee. The only thing I can guarantee you is with out more hunters, bucks will get cheaper.

I would like to inform everyone reaiding this thread that there is a very special benefit auction going on right now for Samuel Bish, a young boy who is undergoiing treatment for cancer. He and his family could use all the help they can get. The auctions are this--All proceeds go directly to Sam Bish.

One straw of Magnus (Buckster/Magnum II) 240+@3--current bid $500 --



and also choice of 2 straws out of these sires- Legend (240 typical), Libery 300" ,6x6 235 typical, and Legacy 300". Current bid $600



These benefit auctions run until 10/10/09

Winning bidder will have semen transfered to them or sent to them at no charge.



Please take the time to atleast look at Sam's story in the felowship forum.

Freely you have received, freely give.

I'd like to inform everyone reading this thread how dissapointed (NOt that you care....BUT YOU SHOULD) i am that we are letting this topic slip threw our fingers......I have been making calls across the industry......promising donations...........giving input.....contacting Outdoor Marketing resources.............offering my time and any thing i can TO HELP SAVE OUR HIDES.....and ALL I HAVE RECEIVED SO FAR FOR MY POSITIVE ATTITUDE TOWARDS OUR INDUSTRY IS ONE BIG COMPLAINT....BECAUSE i ASKED FOR AN UPDATE FROM RUSS JR. WHO DID START THIS DRIVE IN THE FIRST PLACE.....AND WE HAVE HEARD NOTHING FROM SINCE FOR ATLEAST WEEKS.......SORRY IF I SOUND FRUSTRATED BUT I AM......YES THIS IS IN CAPITOL LETTERS BECAUSE I AM UPSET........YOU KNOW......THERE SHOULD BE KNOW DIFFERENCE IF YOUR A BIG FARMER OR A SMALL FARMER WHEN IT COMES TO WANTING TO HELP OUT IN THIS INDUSTRY....BUT FOR SOME REASON THERE IS THAT WEDGE........FOR WHY i DO NOT KNOW.......I HAVE POURED MY HEART OUT TOWARDS THIS MARKETING cAMPAIGN TO GET NOTHING BUT INSULTING COMPLAINTS BACK IN MY EFFORTS.......i HAVE EVEN MADE PHONE CALLS TO MAKE RIGHT WITH THE PEOPLE THAT MAY HAVE TAKEN MY WRITINGS WRONG.....NEVER HEAR BACK FROM THEM...........i AM TIRED OF TRYING.....AND IT REALLY MAKES ME UPSET AS I THOUGHT THIS WAS AN INDUSTRY WHERE BONDING WOULD BE AN EASY THING.....ESPECIALLLY WHEN IT IS FOR THE GOOD OF THE IDUSTRY...........YOU ALL REALLY NEED TO TAKE A REALITY CHECK AND QUIT SITTING BACK IN THE BACKGROUND WAITING TO SEE WAHT HAPPENS.....WITH THAT ATTITUDE.......WELL QUITE FRANKLYYOU WILL ALL GET WHAT YOU DESERVE!!!!! I AM SORRY FOR THE HARSH WORDS AND BECAUSE i AM SMALL WILL PROBABLY GET LAMB BASTED BUT AT THIS POINT IN TIME.......I DO NOT CARE ANYMORE!!! STEP UP.....OR SHUT UP.........AT THE VERY LEAST PRAY!!!!!!!!!!! WE NEED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!