Without hunters we all starve! Please comment

Russ Jr.,



I have read this entire thread and thank you for starting it. Even though I have only been involved in selling deer and elk for a couple of years, I have made my living full time in the auction business for the last 14 years. During that time I have helped many organizations, large and small, to raise funds for their projects. When most groups are wanting to raise money, they have good intentions but their thoughts on how to go about it are a little off track. I am not sure about the best way for long term funding, I'm thinking of the initial fundraiser for a publicity push.



In a short time I have met a lot of great deer people. I would like to be involved in the deer industry for a long time. To do that the industry needs to stay strong. I am volunteering any services or ideas that I, or my company, may be able to provide toward raising funds for the promotion of high fence hunting.



Our company, Supreme Cervidae Marketing, had as one of our statements from the beginning that we will support organizations that work for the betterment of the deer industry. We have done that by giving 10% of the commission we collect from each auction (off the top) to the state associations of members who bought or sold in our auctions. Just our way of giving.



Let me know how we can help or what you need. Anyone, feel free to contact me at any time to discuss how we will make this happen.



John Wells

Supreme Cervidae Marketing

812-875-2324

[email protected]

Russ Jr,

Any updates? Where are we headed with this lately. A lot of people lining up here to help.......can you please give us some kind of update. Is there any talk of starting a board for this.....Have you heard anything new.....please fill us in!

On this forum many people have offered good suggestions, time and help. I feel at this stage of the game we need to compile all these persons their suggestions or contributions, phone numbers, email addresses to organize and put structure to the progress we have made so far.

I feel we have made a lot of progress. Although we have perhaps failed it is to get the message out to more deer breeders This is evident by the Views and Replies on the forums. Perhaps less that 10% of deer farmers have clicked on this forum.



#1 We must identify ways to advertise, TV, Video, publications, billboards, email, and 100 other suggestions.

#2 Identify persons or businesses who can get the job done

#3 Identify the persons who have the connections to accomplish #2

#4 Identity short term, medium term and long term goals

#5 Compile all this info so it is at our finger tips so we can direct the army of volunteers.

This is to big of a project for just a few people.

Who are the core of volunteers to head this --- Russ Jr.

All the info from above I feel must be sent to one person and compiled for the core group to discuss and make decisions on.

If this seems logical, do we have a vote to continue and a person to volunteer to compile all the info.

If so let’s get-er done.



I have found out in the past more people are willing to get involved with a cause that is accomplishing something as compared to just talking about it.

Wisdom, you are on target. We must compile our efforts and resources to be able to proceed.



I will be announcing this project and soliciting for ideas and support at our upcoming deer auction in Lancaster, PA, October 2 & 3. I am offering up space in the meeting hall for anyone who will be there and would like to get together to have a forum, put information on paper, share ideas and whatever else will help move this along.



I also intend to read most, if not all, of Russ Jr's initial post to those in attendance. This will also be broadcast to those listening on the internet. This will reach a lot of people who do not get online or read this forum. We need the help and backing of as many as possible.



Any suggestions to help spread the word?



John Wells

Supreme Cervidae Marketing

812-875-2324

[email protected]

www.supremecervidae.com

The DNR up here in Minnesota has been trying to get more youth hunting for years. Cost for license is minimal and the numbers are still going down. The DNR would have much more money and resources to throw at it than anyone else. Maybe target the hunters that have the money to spend on a high fence hunt and let the DNR spend their time and money on youth hunting.

John,

that is an awesome start!! Thank You......Thank You....Thank You! For getting things started.............we need to get this thing rollin!!

Thank you John.

We need you guys on board, all of you auctioneers. If we would have known earlier which direction we were going perhaps some one could have wrote an article for in your auction catalog to get the word out. We appreciate you picking up the ball that weekend and running with it. At this time I feel the most important things we can do is #1 get the word out to as many breeders as possible. #2 identify a short term plan and get the ball rolling. #3 figure out how to pay for #4 Where to start

I have been talking with a lot of people regarding this campaign.......I have been getting a lot of good points from a lot of different angles......if we are all looking to fit the bill for the advertising there needs to be things put in check that protects everyone involved...meaning both Deer Farmers as well as Preserve owners. The Deer Farmer needs to know that their deer pricing will not tank and that they will receive fair pricing for their product that takes lots of time and money to raise. We can't ask the Deer Farmers to take these terribly reduced prices for their animals and then ask them to contribute another percentage to the Marketing of the preserves as well.........we need to make it to where it is fair for everyone....big and small.......the fact of the matter is.....two years ago there were not enough bucks to go around for the hunts being booked......tons of people decided to jump into the deer business.........lots of preserve owners decided to raise their own deer........the economy crapped the bed......and now the market is flooded..........this is where we lie right now......We know for the most of us the hunting preserves are the end market and we do need to find a way to improve the image of High Fenced Hunts............while at the same time ensuring that the Deer Farmers can be assured that their prices will continue to be fair as they have been in the past.........we all have to make a livin at what we are doing and we need to figure out how this can all be done fairly for everyone involved!!!! John, I will give you a call in about a week or so after i have had a chance to pray on and think about what we discussed! Hopefully, we as an industry can figure out what the fair path is to help EVERYONE increase their hopes and dreams for this business we all love!!!

Dennis you are correct in theory. But in reality the law of supply and demand controls all commodities. Always has always will. Any thing else is a socialist government or distribution of wealth. Free enterprise means the price hunting ranches pay for shooters will remain high depending on the amount of shooters available. If there are a lot of shooter bucks the price will go down. Depending on how low they go depends on how many bucks are available. The more shooter bucks the lower the prices will go. Are most of the hunting ranches setting prices in most instances - NO. The deer prices are set by the deer breeders that are selling there bucks and some would say cheap. What is to cheap? As a trophy is in the eyes of the beholder. Cheap is in the eyes of the seller. Let us say hunting ranch owners are paying a fair price for shooters from 2/3 of the breeders. That means 1/3 of the breeders have no place to go with their shooters. What if you and I were among the 1/3 who could not sell our bucks. If that were the case we have two options. #1 feed them another year and drag dead ones out of the pens or #2 lower the price and move them. Unfortunately when this happens some one in the 2/3 now is not going to sell their bucks because the ranches only need so many. Now this breeders is forced to lower his prices and the law of supply and demand weeds out the breeders who over extended them selves by focusing on pedigrees and high priced semen. Will the hunting ranches be guilty of purchasing cheap bucks - Yes. But how can we point a finger at ranches for purchasing cheap deer. Ever one likes a deal.

On the other hand what if a breeder was going out of business and had a dozen straws of max, maxbow, Shadow ect. In his tank and offered them to the first breeder who paid $1000 a straw. We all know the semen would not last long. Then who is taking advantage of who in the name of a good deal. Or is a breeders taking advantage of another breeder.

As I see our current dilemma, all breeders are in between a rock and a hard place except for the top 2 % who are still selling fawns, does and semen. You will soon see where their true colors lie depending on how much they contribute to advertising. I suggest the other 98% of breeders support the top breeders and auctioneers who contribute and support the industry.

Sadly this industry is driven by the pride of raising the biggest buck. Many breeders will sleep with the devil to do this. How many top breeders have grossly over scored their bucks, changed contracts, sent back semen deposits when semen tripled at other sales, they set rules and regulations that they them selves would not want to follow, circle bidding, buying their way into sales. Some of these breeders would not be there if we quit purchasing their semen, fawns and does off the farm or at auctions. The whole industry needs cleaned up from the top to the bottom. What if one of these top breeders took semen, or deer to a sale and no one bid on it. Would that not send a message threw the industry. Then again they would know how we feel when our semen and deer do not sell. Not enough hunters is only one of many problems we need to overcome. Pointing fingers at each other will not change a thing. But will only cause hard feelings. Problems need to be identified and corrected. We need to focus how we can help each other, not take advantage of each other. Dennis I know this is your hearts desire and the reason you wrote your last forum comment.

God has put His hand on this industry and God’s hand is still there. God is not an Indian giver. But sadly greed has over shadowed His grace and most of us are guilty of this including me.

Wisdom,

you are right about the supply and demand it is what it is......until venison becomes a popular gourmey meal in this country the number of hunts being sold is what drives this Industry for the most part. There is nothing wrong with the preserve owners getting good deals that just makes good business sense. Back to the Deer Farmer and him needing some kind of security and hope for his future......you make a good point when you talk about supply and demand....it might be in the Deer Farmers best interest to ban together and see what their best options are for controlling the supply and demand to the hunting preserves and this way keeping their prices up to where they need them to be so they can make a profit. I hate to see it get to this but we all need to look at this as a business and the fact that we are all in this together. we all want the same thing in the end.......let's find the fairest way to put it together to where it benefits each and every person in the industry! I just want what is fair for everyone.....I fully understand that sometimes business is not fair.....but that door can swing both ways and in the end no one wins........The point i am making is we all need to understand that we have money invested in this industry some have a lot more than others....(but the ones that have more invested have gotten more from the industry than the ones that don't so it is a wash.........We have a good thing going here and we can all swallow our pride a little sit down and figure out what path will be in the best interest for everyone involved ..........then put the wheels in motion if it all makes sense ......and start securing a bright future for us all!!

Dennis, you got me thinking,

What are the chances of ever having a truck (refridgerated) show up and take your culls for meat. This was broght up a few years ago at a meeting I was at. It seemed to be a long way off at the time, but now , as herds continue to grow each year, The need to move animals is getting stronger, not just shooters.

Is the rate of new hunters and animal deaths going to reach the rate at which our deer are reproducing. For those who are able to sell enough breeding stock to keep their #'s managable, great, but, those deer are still in a system that leads to one end result, death or shooter. What are the alternatives for animals we can't sell, don't die , and shouldn't keep. Is there a possibility of a meat market? Just an outlet for animals that would otherwise be taxing on us. Even if we could get something for these types of animals would be better than nothing, or keeping them 'till they die.

Right now it seems all of us are depending one ultimate market for our deer. Should we try and create another end result or demand for some of the deer? I am not sure if this is even possible, but just a thought.

In theory, the banning together of both deer farmers and preserves owner to promote hunting in a positive light seems like the best option - at least on the surface. But looking beneath the surface the key-points that would need to be address and accomplished are leaving me a bit nervous.



For example; let's just say we are successful and we do increase the amount of hunters that entertain the services and products we are promoting. Through a successful promotional and marketing campaign we increase the amount of hunters visiting preserves by 100%. Basically we as an industry go from supplying 20,000 hunts a year to 40,000. On the surface this would be a great mark of progress indicating we as an industry have doubled the amount of deer we would need to produce each year.



This is great ideology - on the surface!!



However, beneath the surface and in "most cases", the hunting preserves also raise "a lot of their own deer". What would or could be put in place to prevent the preserves from stepping up their own production numbers to lessen the need for outsourcing from folks that raise deer solely for the breeder/preserve market?



As it stands currently, I feel we are playing with a double edge sword. On one side we could get cut if we don't do anything to promote the industry and on the other side we could also get cut by taking the initiative to promote higher hunting numbers. Looking at the feedback I got from 5-6 different preserves this year, most are claiming they don't need to purchase as many buck because they are producing the bulk of their own deer.





Hmmm, ok!! So this indicates the preserves (at least the 5-6 that I've spoken with) have become somewhat self sufficient. They are relying less and less on the deer farmer to meet the needs/demand of the hunting customers.



Again, in theory, if we as an industry were to form a marketing campaign group and successfully increase the number of hunters entertaining the services or products we offer, what is going to prevent the preserves from increasing their own "on the farm" production numbers and in turn once again create less of a demand for shooting stock that the deer farmers produce?



I am a little reluctant to feed the unmuzzled dog that may once again turn around and bite me.



These are just some random thoughts that I think need to be addressed in order to gain the confidence of a promotional program geared specifically towards promoting the preserve hunting side of the industry.





Regards,

John

There is a lot of reading on this thread, for sure. One's comments wouldn't sway the average opinion of high fence hunting. Integrity might. I was visiting a neighbor yesterday evening. He has about 100 low fenced acres and I have about 300 high fenced. He lives on his place but I am not at the present living on mine. He was telling me of seeing a small 8pt'r. in my front yard adjacent to an old homestead that lies outside the high fence. As we talked he made his opinion known to me (again) about hunting behind a high fence. It wasn't two minutes later when he commented as to "hardly ever seeing" deer on my place. This made me feel good but that's not how he meant it. I simply replied that I could use a little help getting his observations circulated before deer season. Best wishes to all, Ol' Scrape.

John,

very well put.........communications IS and HAS been a problem as well. We on this forum represent a very small fractiion of the farmers and preserve owners in this Industry. We can't even communicate very well between ourselves...let alone get the word out to everyone....have not heard anything from Russ for sometime now not certian why......leaves one to think the whole thing has been dropped. I know we are all busy preparing for Fall hunts and AIing and all the things that go on in the Fall....but it takes only a few minutes to update everyone on the forum. I just don't understand .....we come on here light a fire under everyone......have some that are ready and willing to do what ever we all agree is the next step......and then.....nothing! I can only do my part and will keep moving forward with the contacts I have....I won't let this issue drop as i know it is important for us all and the future of the Industry.......wee need to NOT let this drop. We must figure out what works for everyone and then move forward. I'm going to do my best to see that it does just that......won't have much of an impact on my own but atleast I can say i tried.......anyone that is willing to look at this from a view that will be fair to everyone......and try to get things started........let me know........I can assure you I'm looking at this from all sides and will push and push till we see something transpire!! I have one big tool I never forget to use when issues seem to big to handle and that is GOD.......there is nothing to BIG for him to handle...he has everything under control!

Hey fellows one step we need to make is up dating our websites. I checked 11 hunting preserves and the average price for a 200"to 210" was just over $15,000. Since the market is down we need to stay on top of those things and make sure the web sites reflect the current market prices. I think this might help sell more hunts.

John you are correct to a point. But I feel we must concentrate on the positive and not the what ifs. Apparently you have been hurt and burnt before.

I know at this time most hunting ranch owners are raising and producing as many shooters as they will ever be able to raise. Their breed pens are as full as every one else’s.

If an advertising push for hunters is successful and brings hunters to the ranches in numbers. That will stimulate the breeding industry like we have never seen before. Could you imagine if a Ranch owner had unlimited hunters their focus would be on killing deer and happy hunters. Not raising more bucks. If they could not get enough bucks for the hunters they are booking the price would go up and also the percentage they pay for shooters would go up. Most hunting ranches would not have to raise a deer if they had enough hunters and enough breeders to supply the bucks. Do the math. If a ranch is shooting 100 deer a year. And can up that to shooting 200 bucks a year. Most ranches would actually down size their herds. Why would they want to raise bucks and have all the work and feed bills when there is an unlimited supply or hunters and unlimited supply of bucks.

If the breeders help with the advertising hunting ranches can do what they do best, hunt and sell your bucks and not spend time to advertise your bucks by themselves. The hunting ranches have spent millions of dollars advertising to sell the breeders shooters, perhaps it’s time the breeders pitch in to help sell their own.

It is not a two edged sward. Still comes down to supply and demand. Want to get rid of your shooters bring hunters to the ranches.



Here is where the two edged sward comes in. What if the hunting ranches can not get hunters and in an effort to sell their breeding stock would advertise “if you purchase our breeding stock we will in return guarantee to purchase your shooters” Now that is scary. Hunting ranches now could control the hunting and possibly the breeding as well.



I suggest we all work together and forget about the what ifs and get hunters who bring new money into this industry.

I am posting this again and get something started.

On this forum many people have offered good suggestions, time and help. I feel at this stage of the game we need to compile all these persons their suggestions or contributions, phone numbers, email addresses to organize and put structure to the progress we have made so far.

I feel we have made a lot of progress. Although we have perhaps failed it is to get the message out to more deer breeders This is evident by the Views and Replies on the forums. Perhaps less that 10% of deer farmers have clicked on this forum.



#1 We must identify ways to advertise, TV, Video, publications, billboards, email, and 100 other suggestions.

#2 Identify persons or businesses who can get the job done

#3 Identify the persons who have the connections to accomplish #2

#4 Identity short term, medium term and long term goals

#5 Compile all this info so it is at our finger tips so we can direct the army of volunteers.

This is to big of a project for just a few people.

Who are the core of volunteers to head this --- Russ Jr.

All the info from above I feel must be sent to one person and compiled for the core group to discuss and make decisions on.

If this seems logical, do we have a vote to continue and a person to volunteer to compile all the info.

If so let’s get-er done.



I have found out in the past more people are willing to get involved with a cause that is accomplishing something as compared to just talking about it.

ddwhitetails said:

John,

very well put.........communications IS and HAS been a problem as well. We on this forum represent a very small fractiion of the farmers and preserve owners in this Industry. We can't even communicate very well between ourselves...let alone get the word out to everyone....have not heard anything from Russ for sometime now not certian why......leaves one to think the whole thing has been dropped. I know we are all busy preparing for Fall hunts and AIing and all the things that go on in the Fall....but it takes only a few minutes to update everyone on the forum. I just don't understand .....we come on here light a fire under everyone......have some that are ready and willing to do what ever we all agree is the next step......and then.....nothing! I can only do my part and will keep moving forward with the contacts I have....I won't let this issue drop as i know it is important for us all and the future of the Industry.......wee need to NOT let this drop. We must figure out what works for everyone and then move forward. I'm going to do my best to see that it does just that......won't have much of an impact on my own but atleast I can say i tried.......anyone that is willing to look at this from a view that will be fair to everyone......and try to get things started........let me know........I can assure you I'm looking at this from all sides and will push and push till we see something transpire!! I have one big tool I never forget to use when issues seem to big to handle and that is GOD.......there is nothing to BIG for him to handle...he has everything under control!

Click to expand...

Russ Jr. has been in TX with many other farmers over the past few days for the All Amercian North/South sale. All I'll say is just because nothing has been posted on a website doesn't mean that nothing is being done. Sometimes I think we should revert back to just picking up the phone and making a call if there are questions before making assumptions... the internet is a funny thing where perception is not always reality because not everyone is on the computer every single day. Just a thought... who's line is that anyway? Hope they don't mind me using it

I think John Swank makes an excellent point and I for one dont believe a preserve owner is going to quit producing his own bucks if his number of hunters doubles. In fact I expect the preserves will produce more bucks if they know they can sell them. It is far easier and cheaper to open a gate and run bucks into the preserve than to buy them elsewhere and haul them in (at fair prices that is). This certainly is not a slam on the preserves. It is just good business on their part to get their bucks as cheap as possible.



The real question is, can we come up with a plan that benefits the whole industry long term, not just the preserves? The more I think about the "big picture" the more I realize that a solution might not even be possible. Maybe the law of "supply and demand" will just have to run its cycles as it does in other livestock industries? When producing bucks becomes unprofitable, producers will get out of the business until the demand makes it profitable again. Why would deer farmers want to help fund a program to help recruit new preserve clients if there is no guarantee that those extra bucks will be bought from deer farmers but instead be produced by the preserves themselves? If you really look at some of the bigger breeders who own preserves, they have been producing many of their own shooters while also selling their doe fawns to new deer farmers for a premium price as well as supplying high dollar semen. Deer Farmers have been buying up these high dollar doe fawns and breeding them with the high dollar semen and in fact have pumped as much money into the pockets of some preserve owners as those preserves have put into the pockets of the deer farmers from whome they buy bucks. Even if we do double the number of shooter bucks needed each year, what have we really done? I think the only result is that we lengthen the time frame of the current market until once again the preserves can produce most of their own shooter bucks and then once again we find ourselves right back where we are now.

Wisdom said:

John you are correct to a point. But I feel we must concentrate on the positive and not the what ifs. Apparently you have been hurt and burnt before.

I know at this time most hunting ranch owners are raising and producing as many shooters as they will ever be able to raise. Their breed pens are as full as every one else’s.

If an advertising push for hunters is successful and brings hunters to the ranches in numbers. That will stimulate the breeding industry like we have never seen before. Could you imagine if a Ranch owner had unlimited hunters their focus would be on killing deer and happy hunters. Not raising more bucks. If they could not get enough bucks for the hunters they are booking the price would go up and also the percentage they pay for shooters would go up. Most hunting ranches would not have to raise a deer if they had enough hunters and enough breeders to supply the bucks. Do the math. If a ranch is shooting 100 deer a year. And can up that to shooting 200 bucks a year. Most ranches would actually down size their herds. Why would they want to raise bucks and have all the work and feed bills when there is an unlimited supply or hunters and unlimited supply of bucks.

If the breeders help with the advertising hunting ranches can do what they do best, hunt and sell your bucks and not spend time to advertise your bucks by themselves. The hunting ranches have spent millions of dollars advertising to sell the breeders shooters, perhaps it’s time the breeders pitch in to help sell their own.

It is not a two edged sward. Still comes down to supply and demand. Want to get rid of your shooters bring hunters to the ranches.



Here is where the two edged sward comes in. What if the hunting ranches can not get hunters and in an effort to sell their breeding stock would advertise “if you purchase our breeding stock we will in return guarantee to purchase your shooters” Now that is scary. Hunting ranches now could control the hunting and possibly the breeding as well.



I suggest we all work together and forget about the what ifs and get hunters who bring new money into this industry.

Click to expand...

I have to agree with this whole heartadly. I can't imagine any hunting preserve wanting to deal with all the extra time, $, effort, and the extra # of deer (to feed and care for)it would take, to increase their shooter buck #'s to double what they are doing now. Speaking of double , I think this is an excellent goal to shoot for. 100% more than they need now. A goal is something that every plan should start with.

ALSO, The hunting preserves have done all the work in advertising our bucks in the past. Like Wisdom posted, maybe it is our turn to help them out. We are all dependant on it. Please take note that I do not have a hunting preserve and I actually do not even have shooters to sell each year, but, I do see a need for help in this industry. Back to the point, We as a large # , can do a lot. more than what people think . Group efforts are the most productive, and , if this can come together, IT WILL WORK.

Getting the word out to as many deer farmers, especially the small ones, is a big part of what this campaign should include . I only have 33 deer currently and I do realize that it won't take long to get to 100, or 200, especially if I can't get rid of animals. I believe there are many farmers out there in my same position not caring or not getting involved because this situation does not directly affect them right now. Those of us with a small # of animals can get along just fine for a few years, but then what. many of us will be there wondering "why didn we not see what was going on?" when it is too late. I pray that every deer farmer in the country would read this forum from start to finish. I see a lot of head way made on different ideas or ways to advertise for the hunting preserves on this forum. It has been said before, but lets get some troups rallied and get it going.