Without hunters we all starve! Please comment

A system for promoting this industry that depends on donations will not survive long term. There will be big support at first and as the years go by, support will fade and it will never be accepted by all and I doubt even the majority if you look at the entire industry and not just the top tier. I have served on the boards of some hunting and conservation groups and I can tell you that the "volunteer way" is a short term fix. Some folks will simply let others do the giving right from the start, others will start giving at first but will then years down the road, find reasons not to. Also, I promise you there will be preserves that will go looking for the cheapest shooter bucks they can get and whether the seller is a contributor to any campaign will mean absolutely NOTHING to them. They will then take those cheaper shooter bucks and undercut the preserves that are doing things right for the industry. THAT WILL HAPPEN! ..... and when it does we will actually be hurting the honest guys by making them do business at a disadvantage to the cheaters. Hunters will not care if the preserve they go to is donating to support the industry, in many cases they will be looking to get the most buck for less bucks$.



To come up with a good solution we need to look at the entire industry from bottom to top, right now we are looking top to bottom and not even seeing the very bottom. In other words we see the top people in this industry and know what to expect from them yet we fail to properly recognize the simple hobby deer farmers who we dont see at sales, dont see on deerfarmer.com but who provide shooter bucks to preserves just the same as the rest of us. I think a good plan is to start with a fund raising auction that includes not only deer and semen but all sorts of donated goods and services this way NOBODY has an excuse for not donating and not buying. This auction would simply get the show started and from there check-off dollars would provide long term funding to sustain and expand advertising campaigns. For those who arent sold on the check-off idea, just consider how successful the beef, pork and soybean check-off programs are and then ask yourself how successful they would be if it was only voluntary particiaption. I believe if they were voluntary they would no longer even be in existance. If we are serious about making a difference in the future of this industry we would be well served to follow an example that has already proven successful than by trying some new plan based on donations, ..... in my humble opinion.

I have heard a lot of great ideas on here and that is why I sat up last night and put them all on a poll.....go vote fro what ideas you think are the best to promote future business for the Industry..........Don H I agree with the check-off idea.....I have not heard any good negative thoughts against it.....it has already worked for others why wouldn't it work for us......it makes the best sense......Harry I understand where your coming from about supporting preserves by hunting on them.....the problem with that is a lot of these farmers don't have that kind of money to spend plain and simple. they are hobby farmers and they love the whitetails and are happy to make a dollar when they can. We should start by having a 100% donation auction where anything can be consigned not just deer and semen but anything this way everyone can contribute like Don said.........then follow it up with a good stable revenue plan like the proven check off plan that has worked for other Industries and would most definetly work for ours..........go vote how you feel on the poll......

mrwhiteails said:

All right pecker head rationalize this, beep-bleep??!?ASbleep Just kidding!...... You all was awaiting for somebody to get yelled at!

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OK Tumorhead, I rationalized your beep-bleep??!?ASbleep. Now you rationalize this...







I agree, each of us still need to do our part by personally spreading the word and getting people to the hunt preserves. That's pretty much a gimme and I know I've been doing my part for many years. Hell, I just had four guys book hunts for a January hunt. Earlier this spring, I helped sell a few tickets to guys for boar hunts for their kids, which they turned around and booked some deer hunts this fall. I know how to play the game.



I don't think I would have to much of a problem getting rid of my shooters, but it is troubling when I talk to the preserves that I have established a long standing relationship with - they tell me guys are calling begging to sell deer. These farms are offering good buck at dirt prices. Of course the preserves are going to buy them up and in turn expect me, you and everyone else to follow suit.



I also agree that the 4 or 5 preserves I have been working with for 5 or more years didn't really see a reduction in hunter numbers, but they are seeing a huge increase in the amount of deer available. With that, it tells me that we need to help the preserves promote hunting on a larger scale. We as deer farmers need to help or there will be a lot of folks holding buck with no place to sell them. I know I am pretty much assured an outlet for my buck, but what about all the new people getting into this business?



When somebody buys a deer off of me, I always help that person by introducing them to the preserves I have established a relationship with. And as long as they remain in good standing with the preserve, they usually are the first ones to sell their buck each fall and at fair prices.



I guess I am just looking at the really big picture and realize in order to create a high demand, we as deer farmers need to help the preserves in their marketing efforts to the hunter. We need to create, through effective marketing, a higher demand for preserve hunting.



I think we all agree on this.. Maybe we just need to educate the farmers on what fair prices are and encouage them to stick together and not give their deer away. It just may be that simple, who knows?

DD slow down thur fellar, Im not saying the producers need to go out and spend BIG BUCKS on the ranches.....its not meant to be "stimilus package" for the preserves its a way to market the preserve by ACTUALLY hunting on them with some maybe na-sayers who actually haven't been introduced the right way and only heard the anti-christ side. Again what makes the news? bad apples! So the perception is there....change that perception by adopting "take a buddy hunting program".



That BS about not being able to afford a hunt is exactly what the problem is and that is what truly drive the bus on so many of the so called Loyalist proclaiming to be so called fair chase hunters. They see the price and squeal "like shooting a cow" but the one who sets down and thinks about it they find that ranch hunting ends up a cheaper route of experiencing a good time, seeing amazing animals and not getting yanged around by some of these outfitters that over hunt the leased land they have....catching my drift here...maybe someone can explain it better...please do!



DD have you ever gone on outfitter hunt? Could not have been cheap and if it was then you either got lucky or got screwed. I know I've spent lots of dollars for false promises and got lots of disappointment....anyone else relate? Can anybody out there afford a management hunt or afford to rent the guys lodge with some fence riders to get the message across?



Johnny never said we dont need to have marketing but needs to be fair share....when I was teaching you had to pay fair share even if you chose not to be in Union. So... absolutely we need to have the marketing end developed but how long will that take and see the results of that....what I'm trying to say is this something that can be started now that will market the industry.....NOW..NOW...NOW!

Where Russ Jr. go?

I feel we need to bum bard that web site and say that not all preserves are like the one in the video...

Here is the link again if you didn't see them

http://www.pennsoutdoors.com/2009/would-you-hunt-a-pennsylvania-fenced-in-deer-preserve/



Not wanting to hang out Chestnut Ridge but they made that video...

I think it makes it look like they are shooting pets and that is what will stick in their heads...They are talking about hunting them while showing tame deer eating out of a feeder with pet Swans and fawns and say if the one area is to big to hunt we can put you in a small area to shoot them...While looking at a field of tame doe and fawns.

THAT IS NOT WHAT WE WANT HUNTERS TO REMEMBER WHEN CHOOSING WETHER IT IS SPORTING

Does any one have a good video link to post in your comments section on that page?I for one think we could play up so many issues making high fence hunts a good reason...



I for one am a mother and I worry about my son 13 and daughter 14 (they hunt deer and turkey) When they go in the woods because there are people out there with guns who haven't shot them since last year and don't have the common sense god gave a goose and there are a ton of them out there.

I posted this on another thread, but somebody wanted it on this one, so here you go...



If you factor in ALL the costs of free range hunting you will find that hunting in a preserve is the same cost, if not CHEAPER than free range hunting. If your a land owner, you have to factor in the cost of food plots, gas for the tractor, stands, cameras, tags, and many other things. If you travel to free range hunt, it even gets more tricky. You have to pay for a lease, travel evpenses, lodging, food, as well as hire somebody to do all the things that you would have to do to set it up as if it were your own land.



AND, If you are dealing with a state that has a draw for tags, then you can only expect to get to hunt there every two years, not to mention out of stat tage prices. Some are $500+.



AFTER you've done all of this, you may get a chance at a nice 120" deer. If you are LUCKY. If it is a prime spot, then you've really payed a nice chuck of change, or are in good with somebody, you might expect to get a 140" deer. If the neighbor didn't shoot it first...



And we wonder why kids don't want to go hunting anymore...



All of this is included in most preserve hunts. you only have to get there. A preseve hunt is all that is fun about hunting WITHOUT all that is bad.



I don't know about you guys, but sign me up!

MR.Whitetials I am not running trust me.......I know all about the walk before you run theory.....plus if you saw me you would know i don't do much running....I'm also not disagreeing with you.....I am on your side here. I told you I know where you are coming from with the hunts and needing to get people to the preserves.....I thought that this is what the whole purpose of this thread was started for......Are we not trying to come up with the best way to Market our preserves so we will have a strong stable end market to sell to. This is All about trying to get the preserves more business and therefore start marketing the Industry NOW, NOW, NOW! I am simply giving my honest opinion....and it is my opinion on how I feel the best way would be to see this Market stabilize NOW and for the long run.....I still feel the 100% Auction and the check-off ideas are the best....Again, my opinion only......this does not mean i disagree with you........just happen to see it differently thats all......we are all on the same side here lets keep it that way until we can hash this all out.



Ps. Harry i have been on guided hunts and they have been both fun and dissapointing....I also have been to preserves just had my son on a hunt last year at a preserve he was tickled to death when he came home with his 160 class trophy so trust me I'm not just talking here I am trying to do my part by walking the walk too. I want what is best for this Industry if I'm way off base with my ideas then so be it.....I am in no matter what we come up with....as long as it means we create a bright path for All of our futures in this Industry.

I don't want to single out any one farm or preserve here but there are MANY MANY people selling hunts on sub-par acreage. Raising whitetails for over 16 years has brought me and my dad to meet a lot of farmers. Not just all the big guys that most people here think about, but the average, or below average farmers that really don’t get out there much. We were shocked to find out that a few of these farms were selling hunts in their acre breeding pens and after browsing through the PDFA membership list appalled to find out that a few of these people were registered as preserves and advertising as such! Now this is an extreme example but these are the kinds of things that are portraying our business as selling canned hunts for farm animals. When we were installing fencing a few years back we would get numerous requests to fence in 5-30 acre plots for hunting. We would turn these people away because we felt it was unethical, but the scary part is that you know eventually they found someone to do the work for them.



The point I’m trying to make here is that we need to build a good image for our industry as a whole as not to give ammunition to these anti hunters and animal rights activists. The state loves to regulate the breeders as well should they, but even that has become lackadaisical at times. There are a few people that should just not be allowed to raise deer on their tiny property or with their current fencing “situation.” Whitetail deer are not dogs and should not be treated as one! To own and operate a whitetail hunting facility you should have to register your high fence area with the state WT association or Dep of Ag and have the area checked to ensure that it meets a minimal standard as far as size and quality goes. Believe it or not I have seen deer fence around landfills and junkyards. Make a law that it is unethical and therefore illegal to have paying customers harvest an animal in a HF under say 100 acres. This alone would get a lot of these people off our backs. There are ways around this but with CWD records the Dep of Ag would have to be pretty slow as not to catch on to a farm that has dozens of animals coming in each year or ironically enough all mature bucks suddenly dying each fall. This would be a small step to show that we are in favor of the rights of our animals and respect their nature. We need to call out and shut down these people who treat a preserve like a kill floor.



PS - Harry I'm totally with you on the whole idea of people turning a blind eye to these places. I'd love to get together with someone and start throwing them out 1 by 1. I get knots in my stomach when I see these places and just want to go off on them for treating their animals so badly. I've already got a black list for us to start from!

I talked with Russ Jr. yesterday and we had a very lengthy and meaningful conversation. I am all for helping in any way I can, as I know my partner Jerry Campbell is as well. There are a few things that I feel should be noted, and taken very seriously.

#1 The check off system is a very insightful idea, BUT!, If we are not careful the very thing that happened cattle industry will happen to us and we will be the ones wondering what just happened. Meaning if we do a check off system, what is to keep the state or government officials from seeing this as a good way to tax our industry and them taking over this program! Be very careful, I would bet that if a government official had thought of this it would already be in place. Lets not educate them. If we need to raise money lets do it in a way as to let the people give what they can, not make it mandatory or we will all loose. By the way I ran a few numbers. Last year I believe the industry at Auction sold nearly 2400 animals. If we had a check off of $20.00 per animal, that would only be $48,000. The cattle industry has a $2.00 check off if I am not mistaken!

#2 The Idea to have every person that is a Whitetail Breeder go on a hunt is a great idea. If all 20,000 breeders as Don H put it would just go on 1 hunt in the next 4 or 5 years that would put our industry in a major short fall of Stocker bucks. I do not know the number but if there are 20,000 breeders, which find it hard to believe that there are, that would put roughly $40,000,000 back in to our industry if the average price was $2,000 per stocker buck. I would bet that that price is off also. That is way more than we will ever raise with a check off system, fund raiser, per animal fee, etc. or whatever. And I guarantee you that no one can go on a Whitetail Hunt for less than $2,000 in the free range. Someone is paying the bill if you are not. Just the insurance, and taxes on most ground anyone hunts on is more than that! GUARANTEED!

#3 There is a man out there already trying very hard to shed some light on the Hunting Ranch Industry, Keith Warren. Let a professional do what they do best. He is a great asset to our industry, but lets not forget, he is struggling to make his very own TV show work. What makes us think we as an industry can do it better. We know deer farming and Hunting Ranches not TV show production. We sure don't know how to make people come and hunt or we would not be in this situation.



The bottom line is this. Russ Jr is right we need to do something! WHAT? I do not know. What I am sure of is we will not help this industry one bit by trying to govern what people must do. By making a list or doing business with that guy, and not that one over there because of what they gave. We need to be industry stuarts. Tell everyone you know that you are a deer farmer. Bring your local school K-6th grade classes to your ranch for day and educate them on the industry. Hold hunting seminars at your ranch to show off your facility. Getting people through the door is the hardest part. Get them in the door and they will buy something. The best way to do that is by telling them to come over and see what you have to offer. Give away a hunt and use the Russ Jr approach. Come hunt, and if you can't say that you had a blast and you didn't have fun, don't make them pay for it.



Last but no least, the bad tomato's will weed them selves out. This industry can not be made to try and sustain everyone, as can no business. It is competitive, and so it should be. Russ Jr. works hard and he is very successful, as are lots of other breeders and Ranchers. Should some one less hard working and unwilling to be a self motivator be rewarded the same a Russ Jr. I think not. That is what we are talking about. Every day in this country is a school of hard knocks. What you do to make your world or life better in the end falls upon each one of our shoulders. Be a industry leader. If each one of us would get up tomorrow morning and go at this problem as hard as we do sitting here in front of this computer and talking abut change this industry would be better off and far more resilant.



In closing, I would like to help in anyway possible as I stated in the beginning of this post. But, with that said, if we are going to try to move forward we must do so knowing there will be losses. Not everyone is going to make it in this business. Because there is an over run of Stocker bucks is not a reason to try and save every breeder from failure. Yes, I would love to see each and every last person do well, very well. But in life as in business, each person must help themselves along the way, or we are just another charity. Once we start up that long hill there is no turning back and we have all failed.



I saw a lot of folks a few years ago rushing in to get a piece of the pie in this industry. Things were going gang busters. They spent big and now the market has cooled a touch. It will be back, and with avengence. If you are one of the lucky one's you will see it too. There are 14 Million deer hunters in the U.S.. They will not stop hunting and they will be coming to your doors more and more each year. The economy is a little off, we all know. It will recover, and we will as an industry, I know it. This is one of the most resourceful industries I have ever been around and we will come through this!



Just my 2 cents worth. I hope I can help. I will do my part when called upon!

Midwest Deer Sales said:

#1 The check off system is a very insightful idea, BUT!, If we are not careful the very thing that happened cattle industry will happen to us and we will be the ones wondering what just happened. Meaning if we do a check off system, what is to keep the state or government officials from seeing this as a good way to tax our industry and them taking over this program! Be very careful, I would bet that if a government official had thought of this it would already be in place. Lets not educate them. If we need to raise money lets do it in a way as to let the people give what they can, not make it mandatory or we will all loose. By the way I ran a few numbers. Last year I believe the industry at Auction sold nearly 2400 animals. If we had a check off of $20.00 per animal, that would only be $48,000. The cattle industry has a $2.00 check off if I am not mistaken!

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Could you point me to a website or something that talks about the government take over of the cattle check-off? I have been out of the cattle business for a few years so I am not up on recent happenings and would like to explore what has happened with that check-off. I find it very hard to believe that the government just came in and took advantage of cattle farmers as agriculture is one of the most government subsidized industries there is. Also the farm lobby is one of the most powerful. The government is not one to take from farmers but instead seems to give to farmers in a variety of ways. Before accepting this arguement as a reason against a check-off, I would like to see some details of what is being talked about here.



The check-off idea that I proposed was not a flat fee of $20 per head but instead was a fee of 1.5% of gross sale price. Basically any animal selling for more than $1334 would pay a feee more than $20. The fee for a $5000 animal would be $75, a $10,000 animal would be $150. Thus the total proceeds would be a lot more than the example of $48,000.



Folks, I dont care what program the industry comes up with. I am just throwing out the argument for a program that has worked well for other agricultural based industries. Whatever plan is finalized is fine with me. I am somewhat familiar with the other check-off programs and that is why I am promoting them. There may be better alternatives??

Good point Dustin! I too have had a neighbor let a guy shoot his nice buck for money in a 2 acre fence, thats crazy!! If he wanted the deer that bad it could of been done at a preserve/ ranch!!! This was a few years back and the guy no longer raises deer, thank God!! but since I started deer farming a year ago, when people from the area come to see my deer, I hear that same story about the guy who paid too shot the buck in the pen!! Word of mouth does carry good and bad news! I try my best to educate these people that visit here on the advantages too ranch hunts. People around here have the misconception that ranches are little places, No so I explain , out in central Pa , western Pa, Tiogo county, and forgive me if I forgot any , there are 1,000 acre ranches. this blows peoples minds!! they never thought the ranches were that big!! especially here in PA, Hell I even got my dads old buddy who's dam near crippled to go and shoot a fallow buck, he picked the ranch himself and wasnt disappointed, He wants to go again, so education is key! just a dumb dutchmans 2 cents.

I respect everyones opinion here as i know we are all after the same thing. However I do not agree with the Check-off being taken over by the government. If you want to worry about the governement they would rather see us gone completely. There are people currently serrving in very high places that do not back Hunting period.

As far as the check-off is concerned it would force....yes force people to contribute into the Marketing campaign.......no one likes to be forced but it's what works........why do you think the government does it. Asking the 20,000 farmers to spend 2,000 dollars on a High Fenced hunt is simply not going to happen......Look at the Nadefa memeberships......if there truly are 20,000 farms out there then Nadefas membership numbers are an embarresment for this Industry.........what makes you think if we can't get these farms to join Nadefa for a lot less than 2,000 dollars......we are going to get them to spend 2,000 on a hunt.........trust me I really wish it would happen.......but it's NOT...........I said it before....Unfortunately you can't give people a choice of wether to give or not give..........most people given that choice take the route that is easier on their pocket book. We need a system like the checks-off program if this thing is ever going to work........I agree we do not know how to sell deer hunts welll or promote our preserves.......but that is what this money would be for not only to make the commercials but to pay the marketing company (who knows how to market) to make the advertisements and commercials for us!!

I personally feel the check-off system make the most sense...and the 100% donation auction to get things started. I am in to make this work what ever the majority feels.

Russ

This is sounding more promising by the day. I am fairly new breeder but have sense enough to know that without hunters we are dead in the water. Hunters are the end market and we must grow that market for breeding to be successful. One idea would be to have a sponsored show on the Outdoor Channel and show off the preserves there. There are tons of people watching these hunting shows.

Thanks for your efforts and let me know how I can help.

I just hope auctions aren't the only place we go after the money. Because as I have said earlier EVERY farm AND preserve needs/should contribute. Many small growers don't get into the auctions. Many large growers don't either. Fact is many of the auctions are made up of the same exact people sale after sale. This past Jan was my first auction I ever went into, and we have been in deer since 1995.

To prove my point a poll of "Do you sell at auction each year? Yes or No." would be nice to see the results of. Except to be honest like this discussion a very small percentage of the industry is registered and participating on this website, so the poll is almost meaningless. If my count is correct 33 different people have contributed to this discussion out of the 624 who are registered on the website. And that is 624 people registered out of what? 20,000 farms?

The anti's can see we are a weak industry at best, and they will kick our dead carcasses to the side if we don't get our crap together and start taking the offense instead of being on the defense with each issue.

An aggressive marketing campaign will give us a more stable end market for our bucks. It will give us more credibility with lawmakers because we will be a more recognizable industry. And we will have a more stabilized image in the eyes of John Q and Jane Q public.

I am concerned we need to have a campaign just to get our own growers and preserves rallied, much less the campaign we need to increase our markets.

Every one of us needs to speak with the growers in our area and make sure that everyone is aware of what is being talked about on here. Educate your buddies in the business that we ALL must contribute to the cause. See what they have for ideas and what their feeling are about what has all been talked about on here for ideas. Again, it doesn't matter if you only sell one or two hunt bucks each year. If the hunt market goes to heck in a handbag that will be one or two bucks each year you are putting in the freezer and not selling to help with the feed bill. If this is your hobby, if this is a side income, or if this is your lively hood you have to join in.

OK...small farm (very small...bottom of the ladder small) chiming in here.



We are all for the $200/farm, we don't see us selling anything on a sale for quite awhile but are for the auction check off. Basically the point I'm trying to make is that even though we haven't voiced our opinion on this thread...we support anything that comes about. Just don't think we are qualified to suggest anything...being new. All I can say is that we will support and educate and do our part.



I do agree totally about Roger's comment that this helps out the small, new farmers more than anyone. We are not on anyone's list...good or bad. Very big problem for us right now having 3 shooters that aren't looking like they are going anywhere this fall.



I don't think (most) people don't agree that something has to be done, I just think that (like us) they don't feel they are informed enough in the industry to speak out. I have always reminded Randy since Day One that there is only one end for a deer...I don't care what the "pedigree"...that is to be hunted.



So even though we aren't "helping" out on the thread, we will do our part with whatever is decided. I believe alot of others will follow also...they would be fools not to.

Susan and anyone else, please understand and know I am not bitching that there is few people contributing to the discussion. I am only pointing out that there is a lack of concern by some, a lack of effort by some others, a lack of ideas on how to help by yet some others, and yes there are some that will say let someone else foot the bill. But we all need to still find a way to jump in and help.

Susan, just by making your post you have shown a support for SOME KIND of an effort by the industry. That in itself is good that you can see a need for this marketing campaign.

New farms or old farms. Big or small. Everyone has opinions and some thoughts on how this can be set in motion. The one thing this forum does is kick ideas around. And if enough ideas are kicked around eventually a good one might fall in our lap.

By no means was I insinuating that you were bitching Roger (or anyone else)...I just wanted to point out that although we small farms may not be participating (on this thread) does not mean that we do not support what NEEDS to take place.



Anyone that is serious about this (WE ARE) would be digging their own grave in the industry NOT to support the efforts made to help.



We are going to do/contribute what we can....I've even told Randy we need to invite the local FFA chapters (starting with our own school) over for tours. I mentioned this to him before all this started. I want to educate people cuz I love what I'm doing right now.

RWalkJr said:

As stated by Midwest Sales we have had an approximate. 40 million in auction sales last year and doing some quick math it takes 5% of all sales to acquire the min 2 million per year needed to make a 10 million 5 year min.

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Russ Jr.

I think we have a glitch in my computer to yours. I stated as an owner of Midwets Whitetail Deer Sale that if every deer farmer (of which they think there 20,000) would go on just one hunt @ $2,000 per person that would generate $40,000,000 in the industry. There is no way the auction companies even come close to $40,000,000 in sales. I did state that there were about 2400 animals sold at auction last year. If we have a check off of $20.00 per head that would equate to about $48,000. A far cry from $10,000,000.



As for the beef check off dollars, the site states that "The Catleman's Beef Board and the USDA oversee the collection and spending of the checkoff funds." That to me means the USDA (which is government run identity) has the final say as to where our money goes and what it is spent on!



I like the check of idea as well. I brought it up to Tim Condict over 2 years ago. I just don't want this industry to step in to something without exploring all of our avenues. I just hope we are well prepared and have a successful plan in place before we just start running. Lets walk a little before we run!