Without hunters we all starve! Please comment

Bruce is right we need to stay focused and Unite together on this challenge. We can not turn this into a breeders vs preserve owners debate. No matter how you look at it we are in this together.....we ALL stand to gain from it breeder or farmer. So lets keep putting our heads together and come up with the best ideas that we can and make this advertising campaign a reality! Please lets stay focused we are making some progress here with some great ideas. Again, Please put in your ideas....there is no dumb idea when you are trying to help solve a very large problem with an Industry that we all have worked our butts off to create. keep those Ideas comming!

Mrwhitetails.....see Harry i didn't call you Harry I called you Mr. whitetails....oops! In all honesty, I hate the word tax myself and thats why I wish I could remember the darn Name Don called it....check something. But anyhow....why don't you think that would work........people wouldn't have a choice......yeah that stinks but the money would be going to where it is needed promoting the Industry. when you leave the people a choice of wether fo give or not to give....unfortunately, its only a small few who will and that is not faie to that small few.......thatis why I like the idea if you want to do business in the industry a small proceed of your sales goes to the promoting of your industry. I am just curious as to why you don't like it Mr.Whitetails. I will get that poll up later this evening if someone doesn't beat me to it...........let me know what the choices you want for the poll!!

There is no way you will get more than 50% participation from the 20,000 deer farms (in my honest opinion). You might get 100% participation from those on this site but we are far from the "typical" whitetail breeder. Furthermore, we have people making 6 and 7 figures per year in this business, why should they get by with a $200 contribution, the same as a guy with 5 or 10 deer of "nothing-special" genetics? I'm not trying to start an argument but just offering some food for thought. On the other hand, the check-off programs used by the beef and pork industries are so successful that the soybean industry copied it. The cost to each producer is equally applied based on volume of sales AND ARE NOT VOLUNTARY. Dont we consider our animals as alternative livestock? Maybe it is time we followed the successful model already in place by at least 3 other agricultural industries and act as a legitemet agricultural industry ourselves rather than a bunch of ostrich breeders? Again, no offense met to anyone who has taken the time and cares enough to offer other ideas, just trying to sell the check-off idea as the best alternative for substantial and long-term benefits. For anyone who is seriously interested in coming up with a viable plan for the whitetail industry, do an internet search for "Pork Check-off" or go the link below to see how the pork check-off started and what is has become.



http://www.pork.org/newsandinformation/quickfacts/porkcheckoff1.aspx

We all have enough doe...What about a recession package...For every deer shot on a preserve we will donate a doe to a food bank. We could call food banks and see if they have processors ect...many ways to go about it.

I know their shelves are taking a hit also.

mrwhiteails said:

Nobody seems to be hearing me say "Take a friend, kid, buddy. etc........... hunting to get people on to ranch hunting" How many of you can agree with me that you have gotten some familar with and on to ranch hunting by either showing or hunting at a ranch which completely changed their minds about it? Think of the trickle effect it will have.....no no I mean down pour effect! I will say it again producers get your butts and friends, family on a ranch.

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Ohh, I hear ya but I can't rationalize selling a buck to a preserve for $1500 and then turning around and spending $4000 to hunt it. That's the kind of thinking that led us into this mess. Sell low and buy high!!





Here is a link to a discussion on high fence hunting - Would you hunt a Pennsylvania Fenced in Deer Preserve? It's surprising what folks will pull from You Tube, or any other media hosting website for that matter, and try to use it against us. With every marketing collateral (pictures, videos, etc) that we publish to the web - we better be sure it is portraying what we want the world to see.



I find the comments to be the most important aspect of the whole page. Notice the majority of comments are NOT opposed to hunting in a preserve. If you spend any time at all on hunting forums, the majority of the folks are on the fence. They don't condone hunting in a preserve nor do they support it. This to me means it would be much easier to sway their opinions in our favor as we don't have to make a disbeliever into a believer.







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And all the enthusium I had is now dwindling away as quickly as it came. DonH is right, the people on this forum are (in my opinion) more likely to support an effort like this to further our industry. And we are already falling apart.

1. No this isn't a breeder vs preserve issue. We are all in the same way since as it has been said the hunting market is the final and true outlet for our bucks.



2.No one likes having to give up money from their pocket.

Yes the "six figure" farms might be able to afford a donation more so than the others, but isn't it the "little farms" that need this marketing effort we are discussing the most? Large farms and multi-operators tend to have the most reliable outlet for their hunt bucks. They have made the relationships needed to secure that outlet. (Note: By multi-operators I mean they have breeding operations and hunt operations.) I could be wrong in this, but I believe the "small breeders" are the ones who tend to supply the fill in bucks at hunt ranches. Meaning that when hunt bookings are down they are the first ones who will have a hard time finding a home for their shooter bucks. Therefore it is in their best interest that this effort is a success. Note: This is NOT to say they should foot the bill. But what it means is they should be included in the effort by giving on some scale equivalent to everyone else in the industry. Again I say what about a rate per head as listed on each farms herd census each year. I assume each state has this census requirement?



Also someone mentioned giving a hunt to a legislator. I think this idea is shot because of the laws about lawmakers receiving gifts. BUT as was also said their are many ways to teach lawmakers about who we are and what we do.

But as was also said we need a faster fix to our current state of affairs.

I like the take a buddy/family member/co-worker, hunting idea.

I do like and think we need a national campaign directed at the true end user. The hunter.



DonH is also correct that although a "tax" of sorts is not a sweet dream for those who are "taxed" it still is a successful and proven tool in promoting an industry.



The biggest thing holding us back is ourselfs. Too many will fight the effort because it would cost THEM money. And because of that we will continue to struggle

Don H said:

There is no way you will get more than 50% participation from the 20,000 deer farms (in my honest opinion). You might get 100% participation from those on this site but we are far from the "typical" whitetail breeder. Furthermore, we have people making 6 and 7 figures per year in this business, why should they get by with a $200 contribution, the same as a guy with 5 or 10 deer of "nothing-special" genetics? I'm not trying to start an argument but just offering some food for thought. On the other hand, the check-off programs used by the beef and pork industries are so successful that the soybean industry copied it. The cost to each producer is equally applied based on volume of sales AND ARE NOT VOLUNTARY. Dont we consider our animals as alternative livestock? Maybe it is time we followed the successful model already in place by at least 3 other agricultural industries and act as a legitemet agricultural industry ourselves rather than a bunch of ostrich breeders? Again, no offense met to anyone who has taken the time and cares enough to offer other ideas, just trying to sell the check-off idea as the best alternative for substantial and long-term benefits. For anyone who is seriously interested in coming up with a viable plan for the whitetail industry, do an internet search for "Pork Check-off" or go the link below to see how the pork check-off started and what is has become.



http://www.pork.org/newsandinformation/quickfacts/porkcheckoff1.aspx

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Don,

I agree with most of what you are saying. I do feel we could get more than 50% participation though. If a deer farmer is not part of the promotional program then his/her outlet options would be much much smaller if the participating preserves refuse to buy from them.



The preserves are going to be the ones that will have to "regulate" any program in return for the benefits of the deer breeders advertising support. A website is setup to point interested hunters to for more information on "Participating Fair Chase Game Ranch Hunting" that is promoted and advertised in magazines, tv commercials and hunting show sponsorships, etc, etc. It would work basically like a outfitters business promoting participating hunting ranches.



Participating deer breeders would also have a list of participating preserves who buy hunting stock.





I like the check-off system other than I already have WAY to much paperwork to tend to with all the regulations now in place. Besides, I hate getting tax documents together, let alone producing an audit each year to contribute my % of sales. I know I would much sooner pay a set yearly fee and be done with it. But that's just me!!



A lot of great ideas coming to the surface. Keep em coming.







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Just a thought, but it might help (from a business standpoint) of a grower to have help on educating growers as to when to sell and how to get the most out of their investment,........Russ,..if you want to put more "fun" back into it and try to sell that aspect, then it is also going to have to be affordable for the average hunter. And with all the "super buck" genetics out there now,...when is the right time to put that deer in a preserve?? Is there some "formula for success" that has been working??.....I think this is going to be the biggest obstacle of all,.........just like everything else in life,......you can market to the hunter all you want,..but if he can't afford it,...he won't do it. Just my 2 cents (that's only worth a penny)





PT

John, essentially the check-off would just be for auction sales. It would be impossible to regulate every private treaty sale. For example, if I am raising beef cattle and I sell a load of cattle at an auction barn or stockyards, they automatically deduct the check-off fee from my check and I have to do nothing. If I were to sell a steer to a neighbor for slaughter, I would pay no check-off fee for that transaction. The same applies to soybeans, any sold through a grain co-op or elevator gets the check-off fee deducted on a "per bushel" basis but if a farmer sells a load of soybeans to his neighbor for mixing in his deer feed, there would be no check-off fee. Right now most whitetail auctions charge a 10% fee on sales. Lets say they start charging 11% and 1 1/2% goes to a whitetail check-off. The auctions are giving 1/2% and the seller is giving 1%. Anyone have any idea what 1 1/2% of all the groos receipts for the auctions would be for a 1 year period? I bet it would be substantial and it would be equally applied based on sales dollars. The only extra paperwork would be for the auctions and that would be minimal. The seller wouldnt even miss his contribution because it would never be in his hands.

I have been following this post all week and I have to say Im in no way shape or form a large farm. I have invested a lot of money in my herd, a lot too me not to some. I need for deer farming and preserves to be around for a long time. I do not know what I can do to help, but just let me know. As for my two cents on how to finance this idea, I would say that I agree you would need a list of who participates and who does not. The preserves should go down the list as they need shooters and only buy from who has contributed. I think we are going to need a list right off the bat, get some flyers out to all registered deer farms and preserves to find out who will join. From that list you can determine what the dues would be and how much each farm would have to pay. I would be willing to contribute to the cost of getting a registration letter sent out to all the farms to find out how many people are interested in being a member and supporting the cause

Dtrain,

It was BK, and I was the Fry Daddy!!



-The check off system is interesting. I would much rather see the auction compaines drop a point or two off the top than the seller.

Some rough numbers, 3 lots to sell, they bring 5K a piece. Your thinking thats not bad I made a little money today! Nice...

Ad page $500 or 1000 for the nice two page spread

Opps design work 200-400

Booth space 250

hotel for two nights 200

travel, gas, food etc... 300



$2150 right off the top

1500 for comission

There's $3650

I hope my math is close.



I'm ready to start the kitty up for this program...

Don,

why couldn't there be a check off on advertising in all the catalogs as well.

Josh i hear where your coming from on all the expenses at an auction and we all need to make money...but it scares me when i hear things like "I would much rather see the auction companies drop a point or to off the top than the seller" If this is going to work and going to work right.....WE can not be expecting someone else to pay the bill......we all need to contribute to the pot.....this is why i think the check off is a great idea.......if your selling and successful and doing business in the Industry then I would think it would be to your best interest to see some of your dollars going back to advertising. It's no different than putting dollars towards and add in a magazine......we all have no problem advertising our farms and our preserves......this check off would be funding a much larger advertising campaign FOR ALL OF US!! I can't believe everyone is not jumping all over this idea about the national campaign.........I read in some previous post and there is no disrespect here i just happen to disagree with what it said......anyhow it said "the sky is not falling" I'm sorry but i have o respectfully disagree with that comment.......this is a serious issue and will be compounded by the current administration that is running our country now.......just was watching Fox News not 30 minutes ago and was listening to Hannity talking about some Czar (one of many appointed by our great president) thais is working towards Banning Hunting ALL TOGETHER! I am not one to hit the panic button......but i hate to say it folks...."THE SKY IS FALLING" we can't think that it's not......we need to get moving on this and get moving fast........I know in our hearts we say awwww it will never happen this is America..........those days could be coming to an end very fast if we don't take action FAST and stand up for what we love to do! We are in a deeeeeep hole right now and need to get ourselves out.....because there are lots out there that want to see us buried.......don't kid yourself if you think not.

Don H I could not agree with you more and am all for the check off program.....i mean it is a PROVEN SUCCESS.......so why wouldn't we think it would work for us. Russ Lets get moving on this...........each day is a day lost and I really, honestly do think our days are numbered if we drag our feet on this!!

Josh said:

Dtrain,

It was BK, and I was the Fry Daddy!!



-The check off system is interesting. I would much rather see the auction compaines drop a point or two off the top than the seller.

Some rough numbers, 3 lots to sell, they bring 5K a piece. Your thinking thats not bad I made a little money today! Nice...

Ad page $500 or 1000 for the nice two page spread

Opps design work 200-400

Booth space 250

hotel for two nights 200

travel, gas, food etc... 300



$2150 right off the top

1500 for comission

There's $3650

I hope my math is close.



I'm ready to start the kitty up for this program...

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Very good point, Josh....



With guys like me (and there are a lot of us, god help us) that do not put animals in auctions, I would be getting a free ride by letting those who do sell at auctions front the bill. I really don't think that is very fair to the big guys.



I too sell shooter buck so I feel that I should pay just as much as the next guy selling breeding stock. After all, that breeder is also selling shooters too! It was my choice not to be a breeder but I shouldn't expect the breeders selling at auctions to carry me.



Coming from a small guy with 30 deer, I don't have a problem paying several hundred dollars to support a promotional program. If guys on the top want to donate more, by all mean they sure can - if they need a tax deduction...



As elklj stated, the preserves are the ones that are going to have to enforce the program. If participating deer farmers are helping to promote them, then in order to get the promotional benefits they will need to abide by the protocols set forth. Have a website setup with all the participating preserves and steer the advertising towards driving hunters to the site, where they can find a list of participating preserves. Just the same for the deer farmers, they to can go to the site or receive a participant list with the preserves that are buying. If they are in good standing, then the preserves will buy from them - if they need buck, which we are hoping the marketing will insure!!









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I only know one Harry deer breeder and he ain't no Mr.-----I think the $200.00 club is a great idea Mr. I think it was improved upon greatly by the idea to start a list. A list that lists the donors, and ask the FAIR CHASE HUNTING RANCH owners to strongly consider these folks first. DNA wasnt a big tadoo until everybody stopped buying deer that didn't have it.-----John----- You know you made my point exactly. You said NADeFA and the state associations should handle the education of the legislators. We are you guys. Nothing but volunteers, who give our heart, soul and lives to this industry. If you guys have not personally had your legislators out to your farm, you have no idea what the difference is. You have to understand, its not about educating anyone. Its about building a relationship with that person. Once that relationship is established, you will be amazed at the rewards. I truly do understand what you are saying on the deer numbers. One thing I would point out, is you can cut the hunter # at least in half. Most hunters will take more than one animal. If we need to shoot 20,000 deer next year, well lets just get it done. Lets not even talk about a problem. Lets just decide how we get 20,000 deer shot. I don't know if that number is anywhere close. ----John---- You are a hard worker as I know. We worked on some stuff before. Can you guys find me the approximate numbers of FAIR CHASE HUNTING RANCHES in the states that are open to trade with other states. Can you figure an approximate number of deer that will need to be harvested next year. Can you give me the approximate number of how many deer we will harvest this year. I know about fourteen million people hunt whitetail deer in the US. Maybe we need to figure out how to also tap foreign markets. We only need such a small percentage to accomplish our goals. Lets not worry why a situation exists, lets eliminate it. I know we can do whatever we decide. There are basicly two differnt things in my post. One on keeping the lawmakers on our side and one about eliminating a problem.

It needs to be done right... or it won't matter how much money you throw at the problem.



Not meaning to knock any body's video but there was so many errors in that video...They made them look like pets in a canned hunt. I FEEL...IN MY OPINION...



People who own preserves need to invite people from the community in Church Group,Jaycees,Local BAR Association members that are hunters meaning attorney's...I have gotten so much free publicity with K-9 dogs that would have cost thousands...

It is because it is neat and different...The same with deer.

I know I have had church groups and schools to the farm...Everybody was very positive about the farm side...I can't show the other side of it...

If someone is near me and willing to open doors and work within the community give me a call...I have done search and rescue and Dare programs at many schools if you would set up programs with your local boy scouts to spend a day with their father seeing what it is about...give um a free key chain with your buisness on it ect...Show them how they could spend a weekend away...Plus get youth excited about hunting.

People will get the word out...Without it all having to come from your mouth!

Tim

I have had my congressman to see my operation. He liked the idea of improving the deer in our area. He will also be here for a free hunt in November inside the fence. We also have a day for all area legislators and law enforcement from our area to come for a dog hunt outside the fence. They love the hunt and free meal.

Harry I think it is very realistic to expect everyone to donate to this cause. Most wont but the ones who truely love to raise this awesome creature will. Even if you can only afford $5 that is a help. I will write a check from every buisiness we have. I think the guys prior hit the target on the head, the TV where there is no opportunity to an immediate negative response.

Your second point was also a great one Harry, take someone out to the ranch, it is our best advertisement. Every time we can get people who do not raise deer to visit and leave with a positive outlook it is a win for the industry.



Here are a few thing we do to accomplish this :



We allow friends and some locals to come in and harvest a few does every year. How hard it is to hunt in the ranch spreads through the local pubs like wildfire. We also run the Wisconsin Dream Hunt for underpriveliged and handicapped kids every year. It is a Hunt on open range deer but we took the opportunity to host it at our farm and educate 10-12 families every year about deer farming, since they spend the better part of 3 days here. Also give away hunts to sci clubs every year and a lot of those hunters have never hunted in a high fence before and will buy to help thier org. and realize they like it. Have repeat costomers from this.



Shannon Thiex

Tim Condict said:

Can you guys find me the approximate numbers of FAIR CHASE HUNTING RANCHES in the states that are open to trade with other states.

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Tim, I think this one would be pretty easy to obtain - just check the the licence issue on your state, whether it be Dept of Ag or DNR...

Tim Condict said:

Can you figure an approximate number of deer that will need to be harvested next year.

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This is getting a little harder and a lot of assumptions would have to be taken into account....

Tim Condict said:

Can you give me the approximate number of how many deer we will harvest this year.

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Again a little harder to verify but as Roger pointed out, we would have to look at inventory records for each state.

Tim Condict said:

I know about fourteen million people hunt whitetail deer in the US. Maybe we need to figure out how to also tap foreign markets. We only need such a small percentage to accomplish our goals. Lets not worry why a situation exists, lets eliminate it. I know we can do whatever we decide. There are basicly two differnt things in my post. One on keeping the lawmakers on our side and one about eliminating a problem.

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Agreed, lawmakers are our friends - and lets work towards eliminating the problem.





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That's what I'm talking about...Deer and hunting story's spread like wild fire...for free...

Ohh, I hear ya but I can't rationalize selling a buck to a preserve for $1500 and then turning around and spending $4000 to hunt it. That's the kind of thinking that led us into this mess. Sell low and buy high!!





All right pecker head rationalize this, beep-bleep??!?ASbleep Just kidding!...... You all was awaiting for somebody to get yelled at!



Not asking anyone to sell low and buy high....Not saying hunt in the same place you sell to....All of ya quit trying to tax me here or check me off there....put some freeking thought into the hunting at the ranches ..............Why do I see such a restistance to this idea and everyone seems to be liking taxing and checking me off etc......



Don H when do you want to schedule a hunt??







Here is a link to a discussion on high fence hunting - Would you hunt a Pennsylvania Fenced in Deer Preserve? It's surprising what folks will pull from You Tube, or any other media hosting website for that matter, and try to use it against us. With every marketing collateral (pictures, videos, etc) that we publish to the web - we better be sure it is portraying what we want the world to see.



I find the comments to be the most important aspect of the whole page. Notice the majority of comments are NOT opposed to hunting in a preserve. If you spend any time at all on hunting forums, the majority of the folks are on the fence. They don't condone hunting in a preserve nor do they support it. This to me means it would be much easier to sway their opinions in our favor as we don't have to make a disbeliever into a believer.











I think this issue goes right on back to dtrain/Dusty talked about from the beginning.....We all want to put our heads in the sand reguarding places/folks like this.........Seen the video before right from his website actually and just closed my eyes.....I thought the first time I saw it he was hunting for #29 buck(that would be how many he ever shot) not specifically buck 29 who was just pushed around in circle so many times it got dizzy......Gotta say the overall idea is GOOD and moderation of the video clip I liked but the rest is DISGUSTING....PAINTS A VERY POOR PICTURE. One of our clients tolded me about it and he(jones) claimed the reason for tags is state mandated.... What do you do do do do????? Without being the bad guys speaking out about a place like this..........Thoughts???



State and national association are very careful/blind to it and don't seem to address it....sounds to me like I need to get involved in my state association at the very least!