Without hunters we all starve! Please comment

We're cool Susan. Just want to be clear and not have any misunderstandings

Lot of good ideas being kicked around here is right.We too are a small farm here also but we are ready to do our part! I will say that in my experience EVERYBODY LOVES TO COME TO A PARTY BUT NOBODY WANTS TO HELP SET UP OR CLEAN UP or have you not noticed that! Not griping or being negative here just my 2 cents. We won't even have any shooters till next year but you can see the writing on the wall if you just look around and talk to people! That's why my family will be ready to help when called apon or asked. In my short time in the business i have come to love this industry and see the need to help keep her moving into the future and i agree we need a long term plan not a short term fix! but it has been stated on this thread before the number of farms verses the number of NADEFA members THOSE that choose to benifit from this industry no matter how big or how small SHOULD BE TRULY ASHAMED! I for one think and this may just be ME but whatever the plan it should be MANDATORY to EVERY deerfarmer or preserve to HAVE TO TAKE PART! in it. We CAN"T BE TRULY UNITED DRAGGING A BUNCH OF FREELOADERS and THE LOOSERS that give the GOOD deerfamers and preserve owners a BAD NAME!!!!!!!! Thanks to all that have posted on this thread i apollogize for reading daily and not comminting on this you guys and gals are right this is a SERIOUS issue that if left to fester will possibly go away BUT it might just take US WITH IT!

I have read most of the comments and thank every one on there input. There are allot of good ideas. The most positive thing is that people are now aware there is a problem of to many shooters and until we do something about it the problem will continue to magnify every year.

As I see it one of our biggest problem is getting hunters off the fence or on our side of the high fence when it comes to hunting ranchs. We need to upgrade the misconception that allot of hunters have. When they hear of high fence most hunters think of canned hunts. As we have been labeled by the media and the anti hunters. We do not need to promote hunting ranchs but promote the positive idea of hunting behind high fence. We must change this misconception that is keeping our industry from reaching it’s full potential. Keith Warren is doing a great job. But one man shooting a big buck and putting it on TV is not going to solve our problem.

I feel we can get allot more advertising allot cheaper to 100 times more hunters if we can get adds in all the sports magazines. We need people with some pull and influence who can get articles and pictures into any or all of the hunting publications. Articles concerning the many positive benefits of hunting behind high fence, while at the same time being sensitive to fair chase hunters. After all these are the hunters we are targeting and trying to get on our side of the fence. If we bring down the false concept of canned hunts. Hunters will seek the hunting ranchs. Most if not all hunting ranchs spend thousands of dollars on advertising every year doing hunting shows, TV shows, magazines, web sites. The ranchs are doing their part in advertising or they wouldn't be in business. We as breeders must bring down this wall of canned hunts and guide hunters to the ranchs booths at shows and web sites.

I personally would be glad to help write some of the articles if some one will help me with the English, grammar, spelling, punctuation. Well second thought perhaps I can encourage some one else.

Love you guys



100% of the deer that don’t die in our pens are shot!

Good post Whitetail Sanctuary. I agree with what you just said. "I Agree we need a long term plan, not a short term fix." I am watching and giving my advice/opinion because I am 100% vested in this industry as a Deer Farmer, an auction owner, and a marketing and advertising coordinator. But most of all, I am passionate about deer! Not only is my passion for deer on the line but my livelyhood as well. I want what is best for this industry in the worst way. I have stated I am on board, I just hope we move slowly as a group, and not try to take the first idea, or group of ideas that come along. I think we need a good GROUP or BOARD to get this thing rolling in the right direction, for everyone's sake! Amish and English alike.

Good point Eric i'll be talking with the Amish here we need thier support on this and i feel confident we will have it! And i agree whole hartedly lets get ready to roll i think it will help us SPRINT to the finish if " WE " HAVE A GOOD PLAN IN PLACE !

Midwest Deer Sales said:

Russ Jr.

I think we have a glitch in my computer to yours. I stated as an owner of Midwets Whitetail Deer Sale that if every deer farmer (of which they think there 20,000) would go on just one hunt @ $2,000 per person that would generate $40,000,000 in the industry. There is no way the auction companies even come close to $40,000,000 in sales. I did state that there were about 2400 animals sold at auction last year. If we have a check off of $20.00 per head that would equate to about $48,000. A far cry from $10,000,000.



As for the beef check off dollars, the site states that "The Catleman's Beef Board and the USDA oversee the collection and spending of the checkoff funds." That to me means the USDA (which is government run identity) has the final say as to where our money goes and what it is spent on!



I like the check of idea as well. I brought it up to Tim Condict over 2 years ago. I just don't want this industry to step in to something without exploring all of our avenues. I just hope we are well prepared and have a successful plan in place before we just start running. Lets walk a little before we run!

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As I see it a large portion of the money generated in deer farming is threw auctions and the sales that take place during the auction and the sales after the auction because of the advertising and promoting of the sales in the auctions. (hope you got what I meant to say) The point is every farmer needs to be treated fairly. If a man sells a $20,000 deer and another sells a $200 deer and they both pay $20. Is that fair “heck no” The man who sold the $200 deer just donated 10% while the person who sold the $20,000 deer donated .1000%.

I would gladly donate 5-10% of any deer I sold at an auction. In the past I have donated 100% . But now every time I try to get in an auction the auctions are already consigned full, or I don’t have 400 on 400 to qualify.

Don’t all auctioneers charge a percentage. Perhaps part to this percentage could be labeled towards advertising for the hunting industry.

Another good Idea. What if auctions were not geared to the best stacked pedigrees, or who bought a place in an auction or who knows who. But the person who was willing to donate the highest percentage of their sales to promote hunting advertising. That would show the true colors of the givers verses the takers.

good points wisdom but in the long run its not up to the auction companies or the hunting ranches or the big deerfarmer or the small the haves or the have nots its about EVERYONE INVOLVED IN THIS INDUSTRY TO TAKE A STAND AND MAKE A DIFFRENCE! ALL OUR FUTURES ARE DEPENDING ON IT! just my thoughts keep the ideas rollin!

Not everybody is going to agree on a plan but once a plan is in place I would hope we can ALL come together and support it. There are already alot of good comments and I know that the deer farming community will pull together and make this plan work------we have too. If there is anything we can do just email us

Wisdom said:

As I see it a large portion of the money generated in deer farming is threw auctions and the sales that take place during the auction and the sales after the auction because of the advertising and promoting of the sales in the auctions. (hope you got what I meant to say) The point is every farmer needs to be treated fairly. If a man sells a $20,000 deer and another sells a $200 deer and they both pay $20. Is that fair “heck no” The man who sold the $200 deer just donated 10% while the person who sold the $20,000 deer donated .1000%.

I would gladly donate 5-10% of any deer I sold at an auction. In the past I have donated 100% . But now every time I try to get in an auction the auctions are already consigned full, or I don’t have 400 on 400 to qualify.

Don’t all auctioneers charge a percentage. Perhaps part to this percentage could be labeled towards advertising for the hunting industry.

Another good Idea. What if auctions were not geared to the best stacked pedigrees, or who bought a place in an auction or who knows who. But the person who was willing to donate the highest percentage of their sales to promote hunting advertising. That would show the true colors of the givers verses the takers.

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Wisdom Point well, taken but what about the auction companies that already donate to all the state associations, the deer farmers crisis fund, NADeFA (We donated over $14,000 this year) and one auction company each year gives away a Polaris ATV, buys everybody dinner at Shipshewanna, ($25,000) last year, and many, many, other things you are unaware of. I have been just as effected as any one in this industry. I purchased deer in the last 3 years as well as an auction company for more than most any one deer farmer spends or sells in one year, and I can tell you I know for a fact there is little left at the end of the day. I do not drive a new vehicle (mine has 194,000 on it), nor do I live in a new home, nor do I live beyond my means. Maybe some auction companies take, but you can be sure ONE gives a lot back.



Next point, about the $200 versus the $10,000 deer. We have seen what an auction full of $200 deer can do to the industry. It gives a sky is falling mentality as Russ Jr. has said. Maybe I should note, I am one of the leaders on board for a two day auction where all of the proceeds go to the PLAN or IDEA and Midwest Whitetail Deer Sales will be there and help put it on for free! It should be noted that Midwest Whitetail Deer Sales last year offered to NADeFA to make their auction a 100% profitable auction. Meaning Midwest Whitetail Deer Sales along with all of the auction companies go together and do the auction with NADeFA and NADeFA would reap 100% of the profits. Our company offered to do it for free as we felt there were other auction companies that would too! We never heard a response back from NADeFA, and the SAME old auction company keeps on making a profit off of NADeFA, at our industries national events expense. Go figure!!!



I am all for a event where all things sold are donated and 100% of the funds go to the PLAN or IDEA. Problem, we already have one called the NADeFA Conference. Are we willing to hurt our industries National organization and our voice in the field to do this?



Once again I say move swiftly but with caution. It is easy to say let's do this, and we can do that, but the end results are still the same. Without a PLAN and a Council or Board to see the Plan through to the end there will be consequences. Rationalize each persons position and see the other side. Look for the negative side effects. Play the devils advocate before just rushing to make judgement. That's all I ask. I'm on board, with a BOARD and a PLAN!

Sorry Erick about that. Thank you very much for your input. The numbers that were stated came from Jerry in a conference call we had the other day. It was Whitetail, Elk, Red Deer and Fallow sales combined, I think, but not exactly sure. Anyway all these animals are being hunted behind high fence and as Wisdom has repeated its about the idea that high fence hunting is the way to hunt that needs working on. What ever the numbers are we will need an aggressive approach or our efforts will be trumped by the anti's response to our campaign. Just before we see a positive return for our efforts we will hit a low and get the most resistance from those who will hate to see our efforts gaining momentum. Folks spread the word! Call your buddy deer farmers and let them know, "good things are brewing". We need positive and constructive people with foresight and passion for a great future on our side. Sadly some are still hanging onto the idea things are really getting a lot better and just around the corner it will be great for all, idea. Common sense, organized planing and aggressive thinking are just the start to our movement. Next we need a place and time to discuse the next step and make it happen.

Mid west deer sales is without a doubt right about the Board and the Plan (which comes after we get everyones input and ideas)..........I agree we can't just run with the first idea that sounds good......I also agree that we cannot afford to WALK to slow through this process....unfortunately TIME is not on our side.....we need to get things rolling and a board is definelty the next step......now, this Board needs to be a good mix....NOT just the biggest players in the industry but a mix of big and small as well as our Amish friends.

Mid west we would be foolish to take from the Nadefa Conference and I think everyone would agree that would be like stabbing ourselves in our own foot......the fact of the matter is this......I will be as honest here and kind of to the point as well......IF YOU LOVE THIS INDUSTRY AND YOU LOVE RAISING DEER AND RUNNING YOUR HUNTING PRESERVE YOU NEED TO BE PREPARED TO STEP UP TO THE PLATE!!! AND THERES NO ROOM FOR POLITICS....let's leave that crap in Washington. I am fairly new to the Industry.....been involved for a few years now.......I have invested in my farm and deer Lets just say it's a very nice chunck of money in the six figures...I have joined Nadefa......I have donated to auctions....I to date have not sold a single animal or item or semen to see that return on my investment yet....now this being said, I knew getting into the deer farming the return was 3 to 5 years out and I know it's coming or atleast I hope so if we do things right otherwise I'll be eating a lot of very expensive venison......anyhow, the point I am trying to make here is I have not made a dime from this Industry (and that is no fault of anyone...just stating a fact to make a point) and i am willing to.....DONATE MORE OF MY TIME....... MORE FINANCIALLY.... MORE ANIMALS OR ANYTHING THAT WILL HELP GET THIS CAMPAIGN MOVING!! I am not telling everyone all of this because I want you to feel sorry for me...IT'S CALLED STEPPING UP TO THE PLATE IN ANY CAPACITY THAT YOU CAN....... SOME CAN AND SHOULD SUPPORT MORE THAN OTHERS....WHY?.......BECAUSE YOU CAN......OTHERS NEED TO GIVE WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD..........we need to continue to support who we currently do and NEED to STEP UP and be prepared to DIG A LITTLE DEEPER and GIVE MORE to our Industry to see it grow......this IS the only way it will get done .....no matter WHAT IDEA we decide to use it will have to involve GIVING MORE! On this note.......if you are in this industry for the long haul and you don't belong to Nadefa.....YOU NEED TO NOW......As far as I'm concerned There is no GOOD EXCUSE as to why you wouldn't be a member! They are this industries BACKBONE and are what holds evrything together!!!And their fees are MORE than affordable and FAIR for what ou get back in return!

Another thing I had mentioned before and was a little disturbed that only one coment came back agreeing with it....... WE NEED TO PRAY........God is our greatest TOOL we have to help us move forward........don't ignore Him ......or he will ignore US!!

The idea of a 1% checkoff may need some tweaking and it may not. It is the best solution that I have heard.I would personaly rather pay an extra 1% now than do nothing, We all love raising deer, lets all get behind this,put in your input and roll. Darren

Hello Russ Walk Jr. and others. I have agreed with the positive comments and enjoyed this post. I have a small deer farm in Northwest MN and have been deer farming since 1992. As a part of creating farm income I started traveling with my super tame live trophy whitetail bucks in 1996. As of today I have brought my traveling whitetail deer display to over 100 sport shows, which usually run for four to five days and after this fall to over fifty different public schools. Our sport shows have been included in areas like St. Paul, MN; Fargo, ND; St. Louis, MO; Kansas City, MO; Wichita, KS; and Eau Claire, WI to name a few. I have personally spoken to hundreds of thousands of American sportsmen.

When I started bringing our bucks to sport shows, I would never dare to speak openly about deer hunting preserves. There were a lot of negative thoughts about our industry. Today, through careful conversation I am able to openly discuss the deer farm industry. When I go to public schools all of the students learn about the whitetail deer, hunting techniques, and the deer farm industry. The students understand that the bucks on display in the trailer are bred and tamed down for display purposes only, that I do hunt wild deer and that they should also hunt. I explain that I work in Law Enforcement and that I and the grant companies involved want kids to hunt. In my experience, kids that actively hunt and enjoy the great outdoors are less likely to get involved with drugs, vandalism, and other illegal activities. Hunting is a wholesome activity; it is a character builder, an American family tradition. I am then interviewed by the local media and then receive positive reviews that are read by the voting public. Sometimes an article is picked up by the national media and reprinted in other parts of the nation. I have received positive feedback from people as far away as California and Florida.

Once in awhile someone in the crowd will strongly object to deer hunting in a preserve. I then explain that the high fence was not put up to make it easier for the hunter to get the deer, but that the fence was but up to keep the uneducated hunters out. This, in turn, allows the young fork horns to grow up to a respectable size to be harvested. I also explain that we do not harvest six inch walleyes or shoot baby pheasants but in deer hunting, the philosophy of “If I don’t shoot it my neighbor will” is ever present and another fork horn hits the ground. The subject is quickly changed to how can we educate the public to stop shooting little bucks and to start shooting more does?

I think we need to always keep things positive. The public needs to see our industry in a positive light. In a week we will be taking off to start a four week tour, going to twenty schools. My boys and I will be speaking to 15,000(?) students in front of our live trophy whitetail buck display. I am willing to travel to other events and continue to take this effort to other areas. If I can be of assistance please call 1-218-754-2371. Our website is www.porterwhitetail.com

Steve Porter

Steve,



I definetely like the fact that you are educating people about deer farming as a whole, especially our youth. They are the next generation of hunters that we as an industry will rely on. Also, expressing quality management in the way we all hunt as being a big part of the NEED for hunting preserves is a great tool. Keep up the good work.



tom

Steve that is what I was talking about in my post I do dare programs and programs for life skill kids and the media loves it...It could also work for the deer industry.

Along with Steve's deer show there could be a handout for the kids to take home and show the parents about deer farming, and the hunting opportunities that are available at high fence operations if there isn't already. Some of the funds from this new campaign effort could assist with this.



Also as Steve states it is important that we ALL talk about how the "fence" is NOT for trapping the deer, but is used as a tool in the management of the whitetail herds we own. This seems to be a common misconception among the general public.

Many who are not in favor of what we do and provide feel it is like hunting cows to go to a high fence operation. It is important we demonstrate this is inaccurate. That said it is also important we don't make silly mistakes in our discussions with the general public, or in our ads that show ourselves in a bad light. Sometimes a well meaning person can misspeak or take a discussion for granted and the wrong image is then shown. For instance in an effort to gain clients for their hunting ranch I recently saw some video where the owners give the impression the hunts can be tailored to be as "easy as the client wants." This seems like a good thing to say to draw in new business, but in fact it makes the hunt seem staged or fake. Which I am sure was not the intent.

Before releasing an ad or a video try and evaluate it as an "anti" would see it, and see how it sounds to you then.



Remember the hunters we want to draw in are already hunters. They know the time and effort that goes into finding available hunting ground, getting access to it from the owners, scouting an area, MAYBE finding a buck worth hunting for, and then the cost and time it takes to hunt the animal. What we have is the land, and we are giving them the access, and the scouting to be sure there are trophy bucks in the area is taken care of. The fees and other costs are included in the cost of the hunt. What we provide is a cleaner and more direct chance at that trophy buck.

You are right Roger about thinking before you advertise....This is why we would need a Good reputable Marketing Firm to handle our advertising.......one ad (not thought through correctly) could be more damaging than a hundred good ads. This if done right, by the right people, with us all pitching in as well.......can make all the difference in the world.......It is a pretty simple concept (I didn't say easy) we promote our High Fence Hunts, educated the Future Hunters about the New Challenging, hassle free way of hunting........ the preserves bookings go up.....the demand for bucks becomes good again and we all are happy. It can and will work........we need to get a board together, they need to figure out with our input the best way to raise funds for the campaign......again, this Board must consist of not just the big names but be a good mix of Big farmers and little, big preserves and the smaller ones (Not the real small ones that need to be banned) we need to make sure the amish have a seat as well all angles must be covered in order for it to be fair for all.

We had my daughters FFA group out and showed them our operation aswell as talked to them about it as a business and how important it is to manage our deer as well as the wild deer we all hunt. the 36 guys and gals were amazed at the size of the racks developed through the yearling thru 4 year olds that my Amish friends loaned me. They had the perseption that we fed steroids or somthing to get them to grow that big.I explained to them that it was a simple case of food and genetics and that the same thing could be done in the wild if hunters would just alow them to grow and if the had a good food source all year long.After awhile the were quite interested in my operation. And were filled with questions during lunch this group was 16-18 year olds. my wife and i are talking about starting a yearly scholorship to be given a the senior awards assembly each year to the student or students that are going to go into some type of ALTERNITIVE AG to help get the message out there that there are other FARMING bussiness's available besides row crop and cows and to let them know that there is a whole nother world out there for them to EXPLORE! Maybe we could try something like this or field trips to our farms or preserves or sponsor school groups like many other bussiness's do here localy each school year they call it "PARTNERS IN EDUCATION " Dont know just thinkin out loud ! thanks LETS ALL KEEP OUR BRAINS ENGAGED ON THIS ONE!!!!!!!!!! WE WILL GET IT FIGURED OUT !

That is grass roots education. It can't be beat. Seeing something in person and being able to ask questions is by far the most convincing education available. Also with a FFA Group you have an audience that is very likely to be hunters.

Midwest Deer Sales said:

Wisdom Point well, taken but what about the auction companies that already donate to all the state associations, the deer farmers crisis fund, NADeFA (We donated over $14,000 this year) and one auction company each year gives away a Polaris ATV, buys everybody dinner at Shipshewanna, ($25,000) last year, and many, many, other things you are unaware of. I have been just as effected as any one in this industry. I purchased deer in the last 3 years as well as an auction company for more than most any one deer farmer spends or sells in one year, and I can tell you I know for a fact there is little left at the end of the day. I do not drive a new vehicle (mine has 194,000 on it), nor do I live in a new home, nor do I live beyond my means. Maybe some auction companies take, but you can be sure ONE gives a lot back.



Next point, about the $200 versus the $10,000 deer. We have seen what an auction full of $200 deer can do to the industry. It gives a sky is falling mentality as Russ Jr. has said. Maybe I should note, I am one of the leaders on board for a two day auction where all of the proceeds go to the PLAN or IDEA and Midwest Whitetail Deer Sales will be there and help put it on for free! It should be noted that Midwest Whitetail Deer Sales last year offered to NADeFA to make their auction a 100% profitable auction. Meaning Midwest Whitetail Deer Sales along with all of the auction companies go together and do the auction with NADeFA and NADeFA would reap 100% of the profits. Our company offered to do it for free as we felt there were other auction companies that would too! We never heard a response back from NADeFA, and the SAME old auction company keeps on making a profit off of NADeFA, at our industries national events expense. Go figure!!!



I am all for a event where all things sold are donated and 100% of the funds go to the PLAN or IDEA. Problem, we already have one called the NADeFA Conference. Are we willing to hurt our industries National organization and our voice in the field to do this?



Once again I say move swiftly but with caution. It is easy to say let's do this, and we can do that, but the end results are still the same. Without a PLAN and a Council or Board to see the Plan through to the end there will be consequences. Rationalize each persons position and see the other side. Look for the negative side effects. Play the devils advocate before just rushing to make judgement. That's all I ask. I'm on board, with a BOARD and a PLAN!

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I am sorry sir. I must not have made myself clear. I was not talking of the auction companies donating a percentage but the persons or deer farmers selling their deer threw the auctions. I feel ever deer farmer that is in an auction should have the choice of donating a portion of there sales to the auction for advertising.

I am glad people like you have stepped up to help promote deer as well as sales. I have not always agreed with the way Kevin Grace has done business, but I do respect him for the way he has promoted the industry.

With out people like Roy Yoder and Kevin Grace the deer industry would not be the same. Love them or not they are the foundation of what we are today.

Think I have taken a rabbit trail and am in left field

Hats off to all you auction guys.



Does that get me any browney points for the next auction