Without hunters we all starve! Please comment

Far I do agree with you but feel you did not read my post the way i intended it to be read......I agree with Painted in that we need to be careful in our conversations here in the open forum as i am going to reply to you in a prvt message please check your messages........Does everyone think this subject should be moved to a secure forum.....the only problem with that is a lot of the people we want to read this stuff won't get the pass to get into the secure forum. But we can keep the scum that we don't want reading this stuff out...........just a thought.

the truth of the matter is the sky is not falling, but deer are not selling there was a sale a few weeks ago that pretty much had more "no sale" then it did "sold", the pa sale sold a lot of very good deer cheap this is mostly based on economy but never the less the truth, hiding on a secure forum is not going to change it. Something has to be done and Im not in anyway saying I have the answer but I will help anyway I can. If we dont get a list and a membership going we will never know because the 15 to 20 people while with good intensions can not due this along i do not mean to offend anyone and Im most likely one of the smallest farms on this forum so please do not take this post the wrong way

For God's sake people, let's get past this "sky is falling" garbage. If you think it is falling then open a news paper or get a TV and turn it on. The economy has been way down. No new or big news there. But it is coming back a little at a time. As it does our own industry will come back with it.

Why I say it is coming back? As I had said the job I have been laid off from is calling back. That industry is a great indicator of what is happening around the entire world because that is what they do. Move the worlds goods of ALL kinds.

I could have gone back effective Sept 22nd, but as everyone in the deer world knows this is a busy time of year, and we are doing whole herd testing here also along with a brand new fence project. So I took the by-pass and will take the next recall back to work.

As Painted Meadows said some people buy their new stock as they sell their shooters for the year. Shooter sales are way off because of the WORLD economy. Again, not because the deer market is falling. Because shooter sales are off so is the breeder sales. That said we here have been doing pretty well this year. We are selling fawns and bred does, and we have semen sales as well.

All me buyers say they feel upgrading is the right idea and I agree with them.



Let's just stay focused on the "national campaign" to increase our sales at hunting ranches. That idea was a great one 3 years ago but wasn't followed up with and now people are more excited about the idea. That is great news so let's do it this time.



As to "weeding out" the "bad" preserves goes... Well the market will do that for it's self I think. Fact is most are gone now, and the others will drop out in a short time as well. People want a quality experience, those that give it will have return business. The End

fars said:

DDwhitetails I have to disagree with your following statement



"we need to weed out all of the People who do not care about the Whitetails and or are market by running illegal operations (and if there not they need to be) All preserves should need to follow certian guide lines in order to be considered a qualified High Fence Hunt under our Indusrty"

Weed out?? I am all for following the laws, but making a set of guidelines to determine what qualifies for a hunting preserve in your opinion and what doesn't, stinks to high heaven of monopolizing. Lets say you pass your guidelines and eliminate 3/4 the unworthy preserves in the states. They are all 1200 acres+ and 5 star accomendations! Do you really think that is going to help the market?? That is going to back log shooter bucks like you would not believe. Even if you happen to be a lucky one that has an "IN" with one of these preserves do you think this "better image" is going to help the industry?? Fewer preserves mean fewer hunts..fewer hunts mean fewer people hunting on preserves..guess what you are right back to the place you are now..a declining hunting population.

Yes, I definately believe the best preserves should lead the way..have the spotlight and draw the public scrutiny, but the lower end preserves should have a chance as well. The public will sort out the good ones from the bad and eliminate the worse ones through sales. And more preserves mean more people exposed to them.

I imagine you think you can control bad press by getting rid of the bad examples of the industry, but if the press wants to find something bad on you they will! We all know every hunt doesn't go as planned, there are bad shots made every year. The film from just one of those, edited cruelly could set public opinion against us no matter how many acres or how good the lodging is. The only way to get on the good side of the public is to expose the majority to high fenced hunts and to do that you need more hunting preserves not less.

More regulations, guidelines and laws is what got this country into the mess it is in now. It's not going to help our industry either!

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Point well taken. You are right. Now is not the time to start screening the difference between good ranches and bad. Besides most of the time the difference between good and bad is opinion. And too many times a misunderstanding can sway a persons opinion to crush or destroy another’s mans hopes and dreams. I speak from experience.

redwood_river_whitetails said:

OK...small farm (very small...bottom of the ladder small) chiming in here.



We are all for the $200/farm, we don't see us selling anything on a sale for quite awhile but are for the auction check off. Basically the point I'm trying to make is that even though we haven't voiced our opinion on this thread...we support anything that comes about. Just don't think we are qualified to suggest anything...being new. All I can say is that we will support and educate and do our part.



I do agree totally about Roger's comment that this helps out the small, new farmers more than anyone. We are not on anyone's list...good or bad. Very big problem for us right now having 3 shooters that aren't looking like they are going anywhere this fall.



I don't think (most) people don't agree that something has to be done, I just think that (like us) they don't feel they are informed enough in the industry to speak out. I have always reminded Randy since Day One that there is only one end for a deer...I don't care what the "pedigree"...that is to be hunted.



So even though we aren't "helping" out on the thread, we will do our part with whatever is decided. I believe alot of others will follow also...they would be fools not to.

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Thank you for your input. I feel when it comes down to it some of the small operations will give on a percentage basis far more than a lot of the bigger operations. Big or small we need to hear from you. Thank you so much.



100% of the deer that do not die in our pens are shot!

One last post for the night. Advertising is like planting a garden. In most instances it takes months to see the fruits of your labors.

For instance. The video of deer hunts taken this fall for advertising (after editing) will not in most cases be nationally aired until next year.

Point is, if we do not get some deer hunting video in the fall of 2009. The earliest we can expect to see results is 2011.

How many people can hold on to their shooters for two more years?

We need to continue talking and brain storming. But most of all we need to start a core group of leaders and turn this talk into action.

I have talked to breeders who will donate bucks. I have handy caped hunters and hunting ranches, lodging, meals lined up all at no charge. What I am missing is professional video personnel who can get us National exposure.

Get us a camera man and Russ Jr., Harry Strawser and I will get you the footage to promote high fenced hunting a crossed the US.

I agree wisdom we need to take the next step.......get a board of people lined up who will be driving this campaign. Again, this needs to be a board with good balance......meaning...big farmers, small farmers, hunting preserve owners and the Amish.........but anyhow it needs to be done soon so we can start the process. Sounds like it to me Wisdsom you have already started it......we need to get the fund raising part going so we can hire a good camera man and Marketing Firm.

I dont believe that persentage is the way to go, sounds too uch like a tax plan (also too easy to cheat), a flat rate i believe personally is the way to go and should work for all farms, hopefully the larger farms with bigger incomes will offer addiditional giving by way of donations (money and animals) etc.... small farms can also do this, I am a small farmer never even sold a shooter buck yet but would be willing to offer one for 2010 if an organization is adopted that helps in protecting our deer business and who"s methods, standards, and ethics are in accordance with what i feel is acceptable or appropriate.



Dont believe in taxing the wealthy just because they are wealthy, and i would hope that any group or organization assembled would be done with the blessing and or approval or in conjunction with NADEFA, maybe this has already been addressed

Rick said:

I dont believe that persentage is the way to go, sounds too uch like a tax plan (also too easy to cheat), a flat rate i believe personally is the way to go and should work for all farms, hopefully the larger farms with bigger incomes will offer addiditional giving by way of donations (money and animals) etc.... small farms can also do this, I am a small farmer never even sold a shooter buck yet but would be willing to offer one for 2010 if an organization is adopted that helps in protecting our deer business and who"s methods, standards, and ethics are in accordance with what i feel is acceptable or appropriate.



Dont believe in taxing the wealthy just because they are wealthy, and i would hope that any group or organization assembled would be done with the blessing and or approval or in conjunction with NADEFA, maybe this has already been addressed

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Rick every one desires to be treated equal. Equality is paying the same percentage. For instance if a person sells 50.000 worth of deer and pays a 5% commission verses a person who has $5,000 in sales and also pays 5% commission. Are both not treated equal. One deer farmer goes home with $47500 and the other has $4750. Both payed 5%.

I as every one else have heard a lot about circle bidding or running up the cost of deer. Perhaps this added percentage would make these guys think twice about running up their own deer or others. This could get expensive on their pocket books running deer up and buying them back. Perhaps then deer would sell to the highest bidder and correct a problem that has got out of hand in past years. There are a lot of good deer out there but some breeders have played the perception or miss representation game to elevate their deer and sales to top status by allowing people to think their deer are worth more than they really are. The sad part of this is, as these deer breeders are moved up the ladder of success threw deception other reputable breeders are being moved down the latter.

God knows we all have skeletons in our closets, but when the dust settles may we all shake hands and be friends. After all, that should matter a hole lot more to any of us than being in the Top 30 or any sale.

Wisdom sound as if we are getting a little off base here in the 2nd para. You make some strong accusations. Lets get to the root of the issues and it is the preserve issue at hand. Really pisses me off when people try to anonymously put doubt or throw accusations around. Generally most who speak of wrong doings and deception are forgetting about that finger being pointed by them has quite a few more pointing back as you said "skeletons in the closet". Nothing burns me more when people get on here and try to discredit others or place doubt on others success. All always sounds like sour grapes. If you like to discuss further start another thread......BE CAREFUL THOU!



Back to topic

I am not in favor of the 5% deal.........BOTH are not treated equal! Those same people you talk about are the biggest donors/contributors to all state and national functions...Now you want to take more from them. How does this get everyone participating/paying something?

Everyone got ideas and can throw them around on here but what needs to be done is getting a group/committee together and get it rolling. Bring those ideas back here and see what most like..heck poll it if you like.

I would maybe agree with percentage if it was a volunteer basis, also preserves could honor breeders that do volunter thier percentage by purchasing their stock, but i am afraid they will purchase cheapest animals avaliable regardless. Farms that paticipate in a program need to be honored

Jstrait you are the one off base here.....if you don't think what wisdom said above about people having their animals bid up higher than what they were worth and then buying them back has never happened at the sales you are living in a dream world!.....If anything should piss you off it should be those lying and cheating people that are doing anything they can to make a dollar in this industry at any cost!!.......trust me wisdom has been around the block and has done plenty for this industry. He is one of those people YOU talk about jstrait....he is one of those Big Donors/Contributors.....the bottom line is HE WAS SIMPLY TRYING TO MAKE A POINT and we need to QUIT busting on each other and jumping down each others throat....we are all on the same side here and for once are trying to band together for the Good of the Industry....CAN'T WE CONTINUE WITHOUT TRYING TO CAUSE CONFLICT?!

The check off program is the only fair way to go where everyone pays their fair share into the till large or small you are all paying the same percentage......if you make more in the industry you are going to put more in the till but it will still be the same percentage as everyone else is putting in. I have said it before and I'll say it again, you CAN NOT have it where it is on a volunteer basis....when you have it under a volunteer basis only a few step up to the plate and everyone benefits from those few....how fair is that?? It's NOT! Joining Nadefa is on a volunteer basis (I feel it shouldn't be) and only a FEW are members.....but everyone benefits in this industry from all they do and it is plenty!! Not fair if you ask me!!

We all need to step up to the plate if we want this to succeed....the days of sitting back and watching a handful take the lead and then benefitting from all their hard work is over.....we ALL need to help! as we all should. We need to get the new board going for this national campaign......it probably should fall under Nadefa.......and we should look inot getting the 100% donation auction going as well so we can get this off and running!!

Ok dd you jumped into this fight! What the heck point was being made regarding the preserve issue.......It had absolutely nothing to do with it.... only stirring crap as you do on a regular basis as your statements above continue and NO the ones that piss me off are the one like you who get on here accusing people in general of wrong doing. Its the same crap thats gone on for years if anyone does well... morons and his moron friends try to discredit yet have done nothing to better this industry..... unless you consider coming on here blasting people without saying names constructive. I don't live in any DREAM WORLD!!!!! REALITY.....Are there some who buy back or circle bid? I'm sure there are..........but are many selling their animals who bring big numbers who you THINK are cheating doing nothing wrong........ but you accuse any how! If you think someone is dishonest then don't buy from them..its real simple What was the last sale you were at???????? Don't recollect seeing you at any so I'm not sure really sure what your true issues are?? If you would like to discuss further start another thread this one is to important to be smearing up.

dd I'm done with you as are many others!





Back to topic at hand

When that small percentage of folks want to get the ball rolling I will be committed so lets get it rolling......with more then just talking.

It was not my intent to offend any one but to bring a problem to light that has plagued the deer industry that almost every one talks about but no one has the balls to admit. Truth be told God can not fully bless what we are doing until we clean up the mess we have made. If we put integrity back into this industry the gates of hell will not prevail against us. There are a lot of new deer farmers out there. Are they being treated with the respect they deserve. They are bringing new money into this industry as are hunters. With out new money all we are doing is swapping deer and genetics between ourselves. With out new money we will be all consumed with feed bills and dead deer. And for the sole purpose of raising a 300, 400 or the first 500 class buck.

Things will get worse in the nest two years in the deer industry. How can it change? We are breeding twice as many deer and expecting the ranches to market them.

For the new deer raisers who just started, you will be fine if you purchase quality deer cheep. If you get sucked into the pedigree game. Learn to play the game it is expensive and only the top will come out winners.

If you want to market you deer, continue to raise big typicals. For years the breeding market has ruled the hunting ranches. But supply and demand has reversed the tables. Know that if you are raising big typicals and you are not on some hunting ranches list you should be. 90% of the hunters like typical bucks. Produce these bucks and you will sell your deer.



The truth and focus is we need t advertize high fenced hunting

Jstrait,

I don't stir crap I speak my mind and sometimes maybe i should bite my tongue.....you post very little and when you post it is always slinging mud at a fellow farmer or preserve owner.......just review your previous posts the proof is there. No where did I or Wisdom ever say everyone out there who is selling there animals for big numbers are cheating....those are your words not mine and no where in my previous posts did i say this!! Don't put words in my mouth! I must say you being done with me jstrait won't have any effect on how I sleep at night.

Wisdom was making a point....he obviously is not going to name names on a forum like this as that is not how you handle that type of issue........anyhow, I will not continue to argue with you or throw insults your way it's not productive. We need to continue to focus on the issue of getting this campaign on track.

Wisdom, you are right as there are problems that have plagued this industry but for some reason if you mention them you get jumped on. How hard is it to realize we are all on the same side here..........why is it bad to say that some people are not doing things on the up and up......saying this is not putting down those people that have worked there tails off and become very successful in this industry. There are many good, honest and sincere farmers and preserve owners out there........and to think there are not some that are not good, honest and sincere is not smart thinking on anyones part. There is nothing wrong with trying to eliminate these tyes of operations as they only hurt us all as an Industry. Wisdom it is very apparent you have been doing your part (Not just talking) and have lined up many things that can help get things rolling with this Campaign........I offer all of my services and anything that might help to make this a success....please feel free to call me as id love to help where I can......412-287-5534

jstrait said:

Wisdom sound as if we are getting a little off base here in the 2nd para. You make some strong accusations. Lets get to the root of the issues and it is the preserve issue at hand. Really pisses me off when people try to anonymously put doubt or throw accusations around. Generally most who speak of wrong doings and deception are forgetting about that finger being pointed by them has quite a few more pointing back as you said "skeletons in the closet". Nothing burns me more when people get on here and try to discredit others or place doubt on others success. All always sounds like sour grapes. If you like to discuss further start another thread......BE CAREFUL THOU!



Back to topic

I am not in favor of the 5% deal.........BOTH are not treated equal! Those same people you talk about are the biggest donors/contributors to all state and national functions...Now you want to take more from them. How does this get everyone participating/paying something?

Everyone got ideas and can throw them around on here but what needs to be done is getting a group/committee together and get it rolling. Bring those ideas back here and see what most like..heck poll it if you like.

Click to expand...

Sorry if I am getting off base on second parr. I chose not to offend or discredit any one. It is not sour grapes but justice not served.. Know that I seek forgiveness not justice. But neither has been acknowledged. Concerning what was said all is truth. I give credit where it is due and discredit where it is due. I am not a respecter of persons there for I teat every one as equals. From the least of the deer farmers to the greatest. All have a vested interest. How ever I chose to fight fo fight for the underdog. Big buisness and greed always seems to take care of its self.



Oh boy did I ever put a big bulls eye on myself this time. OH well. Lets continue to talk about advertizing.

well, just a little imput from the ones who have been reading and not typing much,......but the mention of a mandatory "tax" or payment without someones consent and the mention of "shutting down" smaller operations that don't meet someones "criteria",.....are VERY toxic subjects, and sound alot like whats going on in washington that we all hate. Be very careful on those two subjects as you will do MUCH more harm than good. those two subjects alone are turning people off very quickly.



If the goal is to bring new hunters into fenced hunting and to show how "fun" it can be as has been stated many time,...then you must first determine where that market level is,...what is their price range?,...how do you meet the markets highest demand?.....Remember that this is a very important "financial" decision to the "average hunter",...how do you address that most important point? No marketing in the world is going to convince them to spend money they simply don't have.





PT

Beautifully stated!!! PT

Pure Turkey....i couldn't agree with you more that these two subjects are toxic and the industry needs to be careful in addressing those subjects.....I hate taxes just as much as anyone else....but I have not heard of any other good ideas where we can fairly raise the needed funds to drive this National marketing Camgaign that we so desperately need. I also think you bring up another great point regarding the marketing end.......once this Campaign is off the ground the first thing the Marketing firm (that is hired) needs to do is just what you suggest........they need to do a study and research our market and see where our dollars are best spent to win over new hunters to our industry. Hunters will spend, they have in the past and they will in the future. We need to sell the product we have (and we have a good product that a lot of outdoorsman want). We need to sell the entire experience......if Hunting can be made to look to be un cool....... we can surely turn that around to where it was 20 years ago where it was cool to hunt as we all know it is......we need to turn the tides we can't afford to sit back and watch our enemies continue to throw stones .......we need to start throwing our own stones. We need to believe in what we have.........know that we can make it desirable to hunters and move forward!

I kind of have mixed feelings on the% of a sale being paid it is not fair for someone to pay 5000.00 while another pays 500.00 the only way you could make it fair would be to put a cap on the amout paid like 5% or 500.00 which ever. You would also need to have another form of revenue because I have not sold a deer at auction and really dont know when I will be ready to sell one. But now there is a lot of talk about a circle well read tha last 19 pages because the same topics are going around and around and around in a big circle