a reply to : Cant move my doe

Love your neighbor(fellow deer farmer) as yourself.

You been around the block then why isnt your partner still on these forums..... Because he got run off because his dumb a$$ got himself in a little pickle when it came to "TRIGICON" and shooting him off the trailer and collecting semen and selling it. Maybe you are him because the way your spelling is its just like him. You can not preach to this choir. Or maybe its the gal thats working for you and another preserve.

Oh by the way I looked on ebay and the only one selling hunts for that is Ryan.


Everyone else is middle of the road, not undercutting

I Asked The Question U Asked The Second Biggest Buck Trigicon Wasn't Harvested In A Trailer And There Was Never Any Semen Sold , Given Away Or Used They Bought 7 Straws W The Deer And Nobody Got Run off

Not All rumors Are True But Thanks For Getting It straight

nobody said IN A TRAILER.  Word was he was shot as soon as he got off the trailer...which is an eyesore to this industry.


and maybe you should go read the Buckeye spring breeder auction catalog page 45 where semen was advertised at 4K/straw.


Guess maybe you should check out YOUR SOURCE.  sold or not the semen was advertised for sale.  I believe there were SEVERAL does advertised for sale AI'd  to Trigicon. 


61,67,69, 123,155, auction on buckstocker, top 30 lot 2, top 30 lot 3

Here's a novel idea.... The Truth, ya see if we are honest with one another and even our selves, things flow so much easier. .. you won't always be the most popular with everyone but even people that you may upset along the way can Respect the fact you are honest with them..... yes I sold you deer and yes I did mess up and move a deer or lose a record and got myself in a pickle, This is totally my fault WHAT CAN I DO TO MAKE THIS RIGHT? See that TRUTH stuff might not make friends with everyone but you'll be disrespected by no one for it! Just a little food for thought even Jesus forgives us if we are Honest with him and ourselves!

jerrilee cave975461410745568


Oh by the way I looked on ebay and the only one selling hunts for that is Ryan.

Everyone else is middle of the road, not undercutting
Heyyy promotion prices trying to get hunters... These are our deer we raised... Hey now..

Lowball prices effect the entire industry.  Doesn't matter if they were raised in your pens or someone elses.  Dropping prices to gain clientele is a short term business plan. Actually it's really not even a plan.  What do you offer that separates you from the competition?  Sometimes you have to come up with a better marketing strategy to compete with those already entrenched in the industry.  All lower prices do is hurt everyone in the industry.  Not picking on you, just speaking the truth.  Hope you're not offended, but I've been quiet for too long on this issue.  I wish you all the best this year.  If I can do anything to help please let me know.

jerrilee cave976071410824469

nobody said IN A TRAILER.  Word was he was shot as soon as he got off the trailer...which is an eyesore to this industry.

and maybe you should go read the Buckeye spring breeder auction catalog page 45 where semen was advertised at 4K/straw.

Guess maybe you should check out YOUR SOURCE.  sold or not the semen was advertised for sale.  I believe there were SEVERAL does advertised for sale AI'd  to Trigicon. 

61,67,69, 123,155, auction on buckstocker, top 30 lot 2, top 30 lot 3


I actually won a doe fawn by the contest on the forums. I was very excited, only to keep getting a reply of I need to DNA the fawns before I give you one. It would have been nice to have been told that there are not any fawns.

First of all, I am new to the forums. I think that not only for the deer farmer in general but especially in this day and age of the CWD and EHD issues, how they are being reacted to politically, etc. that this type of forum set up is a great resource for deer farmers and the industry.


 


Regarding this particular post, All I have to say after reading some of these posts is "Wow!" I started at the top of the overall forum pages, and went through each section before getting to this Antlers Bar and Lounge section. As I read through those other forum Headings, I was impressed by what I perceived as a sense of community and fellowship here among deer farmers, with most people seeming to be trying to be helpful to those asking questions, and expressing genuine concern to those experiencing problems with their deer herds or business. Then I got to this thread, and I was saddened to see the seeming level of animosity that some seem to have towards some others in the industry. Many of you writing on here have forgotten more about deer and deer farming than I know and I certainly respect all of you for the hard work that you put into trying to make either your deer farming or hunting preserves successful. I don't have an intimate understanding of some of what is being discussed here but, after reading all of these posts I do feel compelled to make a few comments. And I would like to stress that I am not sticking up for any one individual, nor am I attacking any person here. I am merely commenting with my thoughts about some of these posts.


 


A) In this day and age of many different anti-hunting groups, in the face of the CWD hysteria that is unfortunately being featured all too prominently in news stories (and even more unfortunately, being reacted too in knee jerk fashion by politicians trying to get some free publicity for themselves) in the face of all of those things I would think that it it more important than ever that deer farmers and the deer industry stand together rather than attacking other members of the community in a public forum.


 


B) One of the things that I have seen mentioned consistently in this thread is an issue with pricing. I wholeheartedly agree with Deerchaser who said


“200 inch deer are not as rare as they used to be�.


 


Which of course is absolutely correct. Everyone here is of course familiar with our capitalistic society and one of the big drivers behind any market (including the shooter market) is Supply and Demand. Over the last two years, the laws of supply and demand, and the fact behind Deerchaser’s comment have driven up auction prices for smaller bucks and driven down auction prices for larger bucks. Why is this happening? It’s happening because every year there are fewer and fewer 3 year olds that are 160, 170, 180 inches, etc.  It’s happening because of the phenomenal success of the deer farming industry in terms of the impact of outstanding genetics on herds in general.  More and more farmers are producing 220-230 plus inch two year olds. Multiple farmers are blessed with 200 inch yearlings.  Several farmers I talked to this year were contemplating selling their 2 year olds as shooters because of that kind of antler production and taking into account the risk/reward of waiting another year, possibly suffering some losses due to disease, etc.


 


I know for a fact that five or six years ago, a preserve paid nearly $20,000 for a buck in the 285 inch range.  That same deer today would go for, what? $7000 at auction? Maybe $10,000 if it was a really nice looking buck? That’s market forces at play there.


 


Some here seem to be implying that a few or even one preserve can


1) exert pressure on the entire shooter market


2) exert pricing pressure on the entire preserve industry


 


That’s clearly not possible.


 


First and foremost, what I am not understanding regarding some of those pricing comments, is that, while a preserve owner is of course free to try and get a bargain from a deer farmer when buying privately from that individual, a preserve owner is totally unable to do that within the confines of the auction system. To those deer farmers who think they might be taken advantage of when selling individually, I would say


 


- You can always say “No� and not sell your deer to someone you think is not offering a fair price


- You can always choose to put your deer at auction, where it is totally market forces determining the sale price of your deer, and of course you can always put a minimum price on your deer and if that’s not met, not sell your deer.


 


Again I will comment that many here have much more experience than I do, but, I am familiar with the fact that, in some areas of the country, at least for the last two years, a sort of buyer’s/sellers guide has been put out there, with pricing based on auction prices. Many deer farmers are aware of those guidelines as are many preserve owners and many adhere to them. It’s also incumbent upon the individual deer farmer for instance, as a form of good business practice, to either attend the auctions, or find out auction results (if they are choosing to sell individually) so that they are an informed seller and can reference the market forces being brought to bear that year (and as we all know, as with any commodity, there can be fluctuations in pricing from year to year).


 


In an earlier post on this thread, WillPenn Whitetails said “Lowball prices effect the entire industry. Dropping prices to gain clientele is a short term business plan actually it’s not even a business plan.�


 


WillPenn I will respectfully preface my response to that comment by quoting you, when you said


 


“Not picking on you, just speaking the truth� although I will amend my comment to say, Not picking on you but just speaking my opinion .


 


Look around TJ Max, Amazon, Sears, TrueCar, etc…they all go after market share with more aggressive pricing than many of their competitors. Obviously some very powerful business forces (and very successful business entities would seem to disagree with you about aggressive pricing being an actual business plan ).


 


Having said that, I firmly believe that price is NOT the only factor that influences hunters when choosing a preserve. I know several ranches in Texas for instance, where they are very very successful and their pricing is much much higher than that offered at even the priciest northeastern hunting preserve. Their pricing is higher because their costs are higher. If price was the sole factor in choosing a hunt, then one of the preserves offering aggressive pricing would be cornering all or most of the market and there would be no business for the other preserves. Someone here mentioned Apple Creek’s pricing and out of curiosity I looked at their site.


 


Indeed they are offering 201�-250� inch hunts for $10,000. I assume that Apple Creek is successful, (one of those aforementioned Texas ranch owners mentioned Apple Creek to me a few weeks ago on the phone, that he was familiar with their business model and success). I hope that Apple Creek is successful, just as I sincerely hope that all deer farmers and preserve owners are successful. But as those Texas whitetail high fence ranches attest to, that success does not hinge merely on price offered and the success of a preserve does not necessarily hinge on the pricing of one or even a few other preserves.


 


Marketing, salesmanship, the experience offered, etc. all come into play. People can buy a certain model of new car for $11,000 but they can also buy new cars ranging in price up to $45,000 plus. If the logic about pricing being commented on was true, then, the car companies offering the $25,000, $30,000, $45,000 models would have those lines discontinued. But that’s not the case. How many of you out there are driving the absolute cheapest car you could purchase anywhere? While price is indeed a driving factor for some, it is not the overriding factor for most. I would say the same is true for hunters.


 


I am a hunter, I regularly book hunts with outfitters, and, in general, it is not the price that is the main factor in where I choose to hunt, it’s the perception I have from their ads, from their websites, the sense I get of the outfitter when I speak to him/her on the phone, the feedback I get from checking out referrals etc. Frankly I never look at price as a main factor because I believe that there is cost (the price) and there is value (what you get for the price) and I could spend more money for something but still have it be a better value. Preserve hunting is no different. Wild River’s Whitetails mentioned


 


“we’ve had a few who have hunted those places and still have come back to us�


 


and that makes my point (Congratulations to you by the way on the customer loyalty and them learning to appreciate what you offered them)  that price is not the sole determining factor. That is reinforced by RyanM84’s comment that he is offering 200â€� inch hunts on his homegrown deer for $5500 and having a tough time selling hunts (Ryan, I’ll be having good thoughts for you that your situation improves in the near future)


 


Again not taking any sides in this debate, but when farmers look at the prices preserves are selling deer on, take a look at the number of staff those preserves have, take a look at their mortgage on the nice lodge, take a look at the tax bill for the preserve property or the lease on that property. Several preserves I know spend in excess of $80,000 a year on marketing. Having said that, it would also be a perfect world when shooter auction pricing for instance took into account drastic rises in feed prices as we saw in recent years.


 


C) this next one is a big one for me, and I think it should be a concern for everyone in the industry in terms of how this kind of thing is addressed. Jerrilee cave mentioned a deer being shot shortly after being offloaded off of a trailer, and also stated that it is


 


“an eyesore to the industry�


 


about the deer being shot shortly after being offloaded, and it’s certainly admirable that people are concerned about the perception of the industry. I don’t know if that story is true, and in general when I hear a story about something that’s been passed from one person to another, it usually winds up that the truth is somewhere in between the two opposing ends of the story.  But I’m not arguing whether the story is true or not.


 


(jerrilee I admire your passion and ethics and concern for the industry) but what I do know is that


- the only way it is an “eyesore to the industry� is if it’s bandied about in a public forum like this. In my opinion if anyone has concerns about that kind of thing, it should be addressed privately, or through your State Association or whatever, but, even if it happened, the only way that it becomes an “eyesore to the industry� is if it gets public exposure by people talking about it in public forums like this, giving ammunition to a host of anti-hunting and anti-preserve forces out there. Sorry but while I believe your comment is well intentioned, and I appreciate your concern, I have to respectfully sat that in this day and age, with the power of Search engines, social media, etc. that posting that kind of thing in a searchable forum like this where it could be picked up and run with by forces against the industry is not in the best interest of the industry. I’m not condoning that behavior if indeed it happened, but the only way it could become an “eyesore to the industry� is by having it put out there publically like this.


 


D) I’m going to finish up by revisiting the first part of my comments, about my feeling that despite whatever differences some might have, the industry as a whole needs to stand together to ensure the future of the industry. By attacking one or a few you are indeed attacking many.


 


The public face of and public perception of our industry is governed by two things


 


1) what others outside the industry write or say about the industry


2) how we conduct ourselves and what and how we present ourselves to the public.


 


Yes we’re all individual business owners, we’re not “partners� in the true contractual business sense but we are all “partners� in the industry, all pieces of the whole, and I would urge everyone to keep that in mind when they conduct business day to day, when they interact on these forums. My thoughts and prayers are with the industry as a whole, and with all of the individuals who take the time to post on these forums. I hope everyone has a successful season. Have a great day.

If you own your own deer you can do what ever you want!!! You can sell them for a $1 it's a free freaken country!!!

And once again we have someone that can't sign their name to a post!


If you don't think that someone that sells 200+ hunts/year doesn't have an influence on the market in the north, then I have more swamp land.


I think you have totally missed the point here!


This person has REPEATEDLY ripped people off and it's time to take out the trash. This ripping off has facilitated him to sell hunts at cut rate prices. Wal-Mart wouldn't be in business if that was their business model.


IF you are so NEW (which I find hard to believe) you should appreciate the fact that you know who this is so you wont get STUNG. It takes some kind of special person to prey on a widow!

I Love Deer,

It is nice to see someone join this forum with a good head on their shoulders.

Jerrilee I Think It Is You That Is Missing The Point Several Of Them In Fact. You Keep Going On About Trigicon When The FACT Is That Several Straws of Trigicon Semen Was Sold With The Buck. So It Should Not Be A Surprise Or Mystery That There are AI'd Does Or Semen For Sale. Several Bring Up An Issue With Kay. I Am Familiar With That Situation And It Was A Simple Business Disupute Due To An Animal That Died And The Circumstances Surrounding That. Not An Uncommon Occurrence. And Pricing Accomodations Are Typically Made. If Someone Has A Business Dispute With A Business Person That Has One Leg The First Person Is Not Taking Advantage Of A Cripple. In A Similar Way If Someone Has A Business Dispute With Someone Who Is A Widow They Are Not Necessarily Taking Advantage of a Widow. The Fact That She Is A Widow Had Nothing To Do With The Dispute The Dispute Would Have Been The Same If It Was Man, Woman, Married, Divorced, Black, White, Purple, Whatever. As I Understand It Despite Incorrect Comments On Here The Court Did Not Rule On The Merits Of That Issue An Agreement Was Reached Out of Court. You Seem To Have No Trouble Writing About Things That You Were Not Directly Involved In But Speaking About Them In A Factual Way AS IF You Know What Actually Went On. You Make A Big Deal Out Of Someone's Name Not Being On Their Post When In Fact The Signup Procedure Merely Asks For a Username As A Log In Not Someone's Actual Name. You Seem To Think That It Is Your RIght To Express Your Opinion But You Seem To Take Exception To Anyone Else Expressing An Opinion That Does Not Agree With Yours. You Seem To Be Getting Fairly Worked Up Over This And Somehow Taking It Personally Which Puzzles Me.  Some People On Here Seem To Be Willing To Make Potentially Libelous Statements About Things That They Are Not Directly Involved In. People Have Been Sued For Less. The Fact That It's A Public Forum Doesn't Allow Anyone to Libel Anyone And People Are Leaving Written Proof. Although You're Entitled To Your Opinion Based On What I Know FACTUALLY About Some Of These Things Your Opinions Are Not Totally Correct.  Now Apparently With The Latest Post We’re Getting Biblical And Talking About Sinning To Which I Would Reply “Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast The First Stoneâ€� . Perhaps Best To All Agree To Disagree And Everyone Grow Or Buy Some Nice Deer.

Ted was a friend.

I'm done reading someone's post that can't and will not sign their name because your obviously have something to hide. what you have to say isn't worth keys it's typed on.

This is Jerry Bell.  I rarely write anything on here, while my son, Jonathan, writes on here often.  The person that wrote the lengthy comment was both intelligent and diplomatic .We need more of that! However, I don't think they understood the intent of many peoples comments.  I think they were correct in that we need to be more careful that we don't provide our adversaries with damaging material.  In the future we should be guarded in what we express.  I'm confident the overall concern intended was that we be ethical in our dealings with everyone because when one person doesn't it has a far reaching effect,  In a real world there will always be dishonest and unscrupulous people.  The most important thing is to know you aren't that person.  When we stand before God we will be judged by the truth.  God said, "the truth will set us free" so let everyone contend for the truth, because then someone who has wronged or taken advantage of another will make it right. Scripture declares everyone has sinned and come short of the glory of God and He also said, "be sure your sin will find you out.  Restitution for wrongs committed is still part of getting right with God and  He capped that off by saying,, "go and sin no more."  I am a deer farmer and a Christian and I want to see this business prosper.  If we will apply biblical principles in all we do and live by the golden rule I'm confident everyone will be blessed with success.  Thanks for the opportunity to share.

Just to set the record on your business analogy... there's a big difference between "competitive" pricing, and lowballing.  Also, the comparison is apples to oranges.  We are clearly not TJ Max, Sears or Amazon.  This is a very small industry that can be easily hurt by one or two people going off the rails.  



Ryan - I tried to make my thoughts/comments as gently as I could.  Wished you luck, asked if I could help, said I wasn't picking on you... you chose to ignore that part of my comments and focus on what upset you.  I'm sorry you viewed it that way.  Of course it's a free country (well, getting less free with each of my passing 44 years).  Guess I should just keep my perspective and years of experience to myself.


You can steer a car with your feet... that doesn't mean it's a good idea!

WillPenn Whitetails976941410922757


You can steer a car with your feet... that doesn't mean it's a good idea!


Unless you have no arms! Sorry Michael I couldn't resist.

jerrilee cave976951410925098



Unless you have no arms! Sorry Michael I couldn't resist.




Lol!  Thanks for the levity jerrilee!  Guess I walked right into that one!  Haha.